<< <i>Well, Eric, you may be right - so why don't you explain to all of us exactly how it is that the coins tone when they are in the bag.
Which ones tone and which ones remain untoned? If they don't need to be in contact with the cloth of the bag, is there an optimal distance that they need to be from the cloth for them to tone? Seems that they are rather tightly packed together - do the coins in the inner portion of the bag that are protected from the cloth by other coins acquire bag toning. I'd be very interested in hearing your explanation of bag toning, particularly how the coins NOT in contact with the cloth acquire bag toning. >>
Silly questions from someone who appears to be looking for nothing more then a fight. Right? >>
Not so - Eric indicates that he has a superior knowledge that none of us other mortals possess - he's seen coins , so just a request that he share his wisdom with all of his - after all he's
<< <i>been on hand for several original bags being broken up and sorted >>
, so that being the case he would certainly know what happened to that bag for the previous 30, 40 or 50 years - wouldn't that be the logical inference of what Eric says? Or is it? Forensic evidence isn't quite that simple - seeing a coin AFTER the toning has occurred does not tell you what happened to it for the prior 100 years - it may give you an indication, but it is not definative, and quite frankly once that bag is picked up and moved the coins change position and when its opened and the coins removed, it is quite impossible to reconstruct the position of each coin relative to every other coin in the bag.
Eric says my
<< <i>statement is full of inaccuracies >>
- that's certainly possible - I'm offering a possible explanation as to how a small area could remain untoned - it's a supposition based on the physical characteristics of the toning process. My conclusion is this - it remained untoned because it wasn't in contact with what ever caused the toning to occur on the rest of the coin. I don't believe it is physically possible for the rim of a coin to sit on this coin and prevent only a small spot on the coin from toning. IF this is actually bag toning, for the simple reason that if that occured, the coin with the rim sitting on the other coin would prevent the toning you see on Russ' coin because the rest of the cloth of the bag would be too far away to cause the untouched portion of the coin to tone. Just put the rim of a coin on that spot on a silver dollar and try to get a piece of cloth to then get close enough to the surface of the other coin to cause toning - and then try and put it in a bag with a whole lot of other coins and see if it would be even remotely close to the source of the toning - the minimum distance from the cloth will be the diameter of the silver dollar. It's not impossible for a rim to touch another coin in that spot - it's just not possible for only 1 coin to remain on that spot once it's in the bag IF the bag is going to be in contact with the coin whose surface tones
All I'm requesting is that if Eric knows the process of bag toning and it differs from my understanding of the cloth being in contact with the coin, that he explain it to me and the rest of us.
If he doesn't want to explain it, then maybe he doesn't know the process (Hint: It's a physical process and a chemical reaction) But he says that my explanation is inaccurate - Perhaps he can help us all understand the toning procces so we can all avoid buying those nasty "AT" coins that keep getting listed on Ebay - you know those green ones that don't have the brown that proves NT
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Ron, I've explained bag toning here many times. Use the board search engine to find those previous threads. In this case, the coin is a no brainer, and I find it interesting that those calling it questionable are positive posters, while I'm negative for saying it is bag toned. There shouldn't even be a dabate about this coin. But it's not about the coin, is it? It's just another example of you and your friends attempting to discredit me. One of your friends actually broke a textile MS67 Morgan and dipped it looking to get a 68.
It's all about money, and it's hard to sell a $150 coin for $7500 as long as there is someone here with credibility cautioning people against it.
<< <i>I don't believe it is physically possible for the rim of a coin to sit on this coin and prevent only a small spot on the coin from toning. IF this is actually bag toning, for the simple reason that if that occured, the coin with the rim sitting on the other coin would prevent the toning you see on Russ' coin because the rest of the cloth of the bag would be too far away to cause the untouched portion of the coin to tone. >>
Actually, I could envision that happening if the coins were caught in a fold in the bag and that fold was wedged between them. Folds generally occur at angles, so I don't think it's inconceivable that this could cause an untoned area where the two coins made contact, with the rest of the coin toning because of the wedged in bag.
fivecents: Thanks so much for your quick and helpful response! Your 1881 crease/seam silver dollar is beautiful too!
stman: You said <<<<<WOW, I can just "Feel the love" in this thread. BTW, how you folks think this one got it's "Toning." I'm trying to learn>>>>> I agree! Fivecents just taught me something I never knew!!
How about we all meet somewhere there is a boxing ring and all duke it out at the same to relieve our anger towards each other- I think in wrestling they call this a battle royal? mike
<< <i>I don't believe it is physically possible for the rim of a coin to sit on this coin and prevent only a small spot on the coin from toning. IF this is actually bag toning, for the simple reason that if that occured, the coin with the rim sitting on the other coin would prevent the toning you see on Russ' coin because the rest of the cloth of the bag would be too far away to cause the untouched portion of the coin to tone. >>
Then tell me how it's possible for a coin to be sitting on velvet reverse down in a display case and the obverse tones? The obverse isn't touching any material but yet it tones?
Funny how someone that is not a recognized expert in the field can go on the internet here, proclaim himself an expert, make pronouncements about the source of toning coins that he has not seen in hand, and slam anyone who expresses a different opinion.
This thread is becoming 100% interesting..... and while I'm no expert on morgan toning, I still like it- the question of whether it was a crease in the bag or another coin on it that caused that one spot is irrelative....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>How about we all meet somewhere there is a boxing ring and all duke it out at the same to relieve our anger towards each other- I think in wrestling they call this a battle royal? mike >>
Perhaps scheduled matches with ring girls announcing the start of each round?
<< <i>I don't believe it is physically possible for the rim of a coin to sit on this coin and prevent only a small spot on the coin from toning. IF this is actually bag toning, for the simple reason that if that occured, the coin with the rim sitting on the other coin would prevent the toning you see on Russ' coin because the rest of the cloth of the bag would be too far away to cause the untouched portion of the coin to tone. >>
Actually, I could envision that happening if the coins were caught in a fold in the bag and that fold was wedged between them. Folds generally occur at angles, so I don't think it's inconceivable that this could cause an untoned area where the two coins made contact, with the rest of the coin toning because of the wedged in bag. >>
Russ,
That could be a possibility - probably not likely because when the coins are in the bag and that 60 or so lbs is lifted the weight would tend to stretch out the folds - BUT in a partially full bag, there could be more likelihod that the extra unfilled space could fold and a coin could be caught in a fold and then rest on the surface of the other coin, but that bag would have to be on top (or have no other weight on top of the coin with its edge caught in the fold because a single coin would not stay on top perpendicular to the surface of the lower "toned" coin with another bag or 2 of coins on top. Also if caught in a fold, the cloth nearest the point of contact and extending in a line parallel to the axis of the "edge coin" there would be a line similar to the 1904-O with the untoned strip in Oreville's post - that's because even though only a small part of the rim touches the lower coin, the fold of the cloth could not get up underneath the lower part of the touching coin's rim so the cloth was again in contact with the lower "toning" coin. Not impossible, but not likely - also, when the bag is picked up to move it or open it, the touching coin would probably then slide along the surface of the toning coin and leave a scratch or abrasion a coin sitting with its rim perpendicular to another coin is not stable and won't remain that way when touched or moved.
Another possibility (all of these scenerio's are speculative) is that as coins are made in machine shops with presses that use grease and oil to lubricate them, that the untoned spot had a small amount of oil from the press room environment and that protected the surface of the coin in that spot just enough to prevent toning - what you can conclude is that something protected that area of the coin. Also, no one seems to mention that there is another small untoned area up towards the rim (between the R & I of Pluribus) which would raise the question of how that untoned spot was protected - although we'll never know for certain because none of us saw where that coin was postioned in the bag (assuming bag toning) when it acquired the toning - we are assuming it was either touching (or in very close proximity to) the cloth. There could be other sources of toning for that coin, it just seems to look like the type of toning that you see from coins that were in mint bags.
Russ, could you post an image of the reverse of that 1887 - I assume it's white or nearly white - if the reverse is toned also, the coin could be envelope toned as both sides would have been in close proximity to the cause (the envelope paper) of the toning.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
<< <i>Then tell me how it's possible for a coin to be sitting on velvet reverse down in a display case and the obverse tones? The obverse isn't touching any material but yet it tones? >>
Probably the same reason why Sterling silverware tones - its not in contact with cloth, but fro some reason all my wife's sterling gets "tarnished" and we have to polish the darn stuff every Thanksgiving when we have the family over for dinner - Silver can tone when its in an atmosphere with sulpher or sulpher gases present. The important part of the toning process is that the silver that tones has to be exposed to the to something that causes the surface to form a thin layer of siver sulfide. It can come from the air, it can come from being in contact with paper or cloth that reacts witht he silver to form a thin film across the surface.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
<< <i>Then tell me how it's possible for a coin to be sitting on velvet reverse down in a display case and the obverse tones? The obverse isn't touching any material but yet it tones? >>
Probably the same reason why Sterling silverware tones - its not in contact with cloth, but fro some reason all my wife's sterling gets "tarnished" and we have to polish the darn stuff every Thanksgiving when we have the family over for dinner - Silver can tone when its in an atmosphere with sulpher or sulpher gases present. The important part of the toning process is that the silver that tones has to be exposed to the to something that causes the surface to form a thin layer of siver sulfide. It can come from the air, it can come from being in contact with paper or cloth that reacts witht he silver to form a thin film across the surface. >>
Then tell me why you think it's not possible for a coin to bag tone unless it is in contact with the cloth. Isn't that what you said in a previous post?
Newmismatist- Ok I'll explain why I agree with K6AZ but you pretty much summed it up for me. When you asked: <<<The coin with the rim against the "toning" silver is approximately 1 1/2" in diameter. In order for the rim to rest on the toning silver dollar, its opposite rim would be 1 1/2 inches above the surface of the "toning" silver dollar - thereby raising the surface of the bag 1 1/2 inches AWAY from the coin that is "toning" - How could the surface of the mint bag tone the coin when its now raised like a tent away from the "toning" coin and physically unable to make contact with the "toning" coin?>>> You answered yourself several posts later when you told Craton: <<<Probably the same reason why Sterling silverware tones - its not in contact with cloth, but fro some reason all my wife's sterling gets "tarnished" and we have to polish the darn stuff every Thanksgiving when we have the family over for dinner - Silver can tone when its in an atmosphere with sulpher or sulpher gases present.>>> But that's not what I think happened to this coin.
So I'm saying it wasn't necessarily in direct contact with the cloth of the Mint bag but might have been near a fold, crease, bubble tent or whatever; another coin was on edge touching it, these 2 coins were perpendicular, at a 90 degree angle, like the topbar & leg of the letter "T". If the offending coin WAS in the fold or crease then the cloth could have been closer than your stated 1½". The dark blue, almost black area is a galvanic like reaction where the 2 coins were touching.
Could have been a rat turd, wood chip, piece of trash or who knows what on that coin so I'm not bold enough to say I'm absolutely 100% correct but I'm pretty sure I'm close to being right. Cause I didn't stick my fat head in the sack to see this firsthand.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
this thread seems to have taken a "right" turn towards a discussion of how it hapened as opposed to "I'm right - You're wrong" which never solves anything or increases our level of knowledge.
<< <i>So I'm saying it wasn't necessarily in direct contact with the cloth of the Mint bag but might have been near a fold, crease, bubble tent or whatever; >>
I certainly concur that the 2 untoned areas towards the top of the coin probably resulted from this situation.
<< <i>another coin was on edge touching it, these 2 coins were perpendicular, at a 90 degree angle, like the topbar & leg of the letter "T". If the offending coin WAS in the fold or crease then the cloth could have been closer than your stated 1½". >>
Possible, but not probable - it's difficult to get a single coin to stand on edge on top of another coin, and in the bag, the simple weight of the bag itself would work against this happening - the reason is because this would have to occur along the outer edge of the coins within the bag and even the slightest movement would cause this unstable tent like condition to collapse. It would have to be a random occurance - I've seen many many sealed bags of coins and never seen a protrusion of a coin that was on edge - it's hard to do this - toss a thousand bags on the floor and tell me how many coins end up on edge making a little tent over the coins below - Again, it may be possible but very unlikely - besides on this particular coin there are 2 untoned spots, and according to the coin on end theory you would need 2 coins on end about a 1/4" apart. One would be pretty iffy, 2 would seem to defy all statistical probability.
<< <i> The dark blue, almost black area is a galvanic like reaction where the 2 coins were touching. >>
Possible, but only if the the 2 coins were of different metal composition (like copper and Zinc) Again I don't know if there was a Zinc coin in whatever bag that coin rested in, but as the mint did not begin making coins with zinc until almost a 100 years after that 1887 coin was made, it is not likely that you would get a galvanic reaction from a silver coin touching another silver coin. But I haven't studied Chemistry since I was a sophomore in college so I could have a faulty memory on this issue - Any chemists out there to answer that question?
<< <i>Could have been a rat turd, wood chip, piece of trash or who knows what on that coin so I'm not bold enough to say I'm absolutely 100% correct but I'm pretty sure I'm close to being right. Cause I didn't stick my fat head in the sack to see this firsthand >>
Dog this may be the best single comment in this thread - none of know for sure - we're all "guessing"
I just happen to think that my "guess" that there was a little gap/ crease/ fold in the cloth near 12:00 O'clock on that coin that slightly separated the cloth away from the suface of the coin in that area is far more likely than Eric's certainty that the untoned spot was caused by a coin standing on edge on top of a coin at the edge of a 60 lb bag of silver dollars. Throw a few bags of silver dollars in a pile and let me know when one coin stands on end on top of another at the edge of the bag as Eric (and you) think happened. You gotta remember that those bags were thrown onto carts and then thrown into the storage vaults THEN they sat for a long time - Those guys moving those bags were not coin collectors trying to gently preserve those coins for us future collectors.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Well I don't care who's right or wrong; that doesn't affect my highly regarded opinion of myself one way or the other. I like discussing Morgs and sometimes I'm wrong but most of the time I'm right and I'll be glad to tell the board why I think I'm right.
First of all the "coin on edge theory" is reasonable when you stop and think about it. Mint bag toning is the easiest toning in the world to identify & explain, except when Russ posts his infamous questionable toners just to stir up a bunch of shiat. The offending coin was not necessarily standing perfectly balanced on Russ's coin waiting to topple one way or the other at the slightest disturbance, not like when you are sitting in a beerjoint bored out of your mind balancing quarters on their edge on the bartop then your friend comes over and slams his fist down on the bar and makes them fall over. I said standing on edge because that puts a good picture in your mind but that is overly simplistic because that sounds like only 2 coin and a piece of cloth were involved. It could have been a pile of a dozen jumbled coins in any array but the important thing is that somehow or another a small part of the rim edge of another coin was touching it @ RTY in LIBERTY. The offending coin might have been laying on it's side up in a crease & Russ's was in the main part of the bag and it wouldn't matter how much the bags were tossed around & restacked, the important thing to remember is simply that 2 coins were touching each other. Of course everyone knows that a galvanic reaction occurs between dissimiliar metals; that's why I said galvanic "like" reaction because I was being overly simplistic and didn't want to confuse everybody with a bunch of babbling scientific BS. If you want all that you need to call somebody like TomB. But anyway, if you look at most crescents where 2 coins overlapped you often see a blackish blue line defining the border (like on Liberty's headband here) where coin touched coin-THEN the colors start normal rainbow, monochrome or whatever progession. So I'm not going to say I'm 100% right but all these keystrokes I just made explaining my opinion is more than just a wild guess. Sorry I didn't insult or flame anybody but my fingers are tired now and must rest.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Dog - sounds good on paper - now fill a bag with 1000 silver dollars and see if you can some how get that rim edge touch the surface of the bag toned coin - might happen, but I've owned a few bags of silver dollars (sold 'em for bullion when the Hunts ran the price of silver to near $50/oz) and with the weight of 1000 silver dollars, that weight has this habit of stretching the bag and when that happens the "fold" necessary to hold that rim touching silver dollar will disappear in an instant - not to say it could never happen - just not likely. On the other hand a silver dollar lying with its rim say a 1/4 inch higher the the surface at say 12:00 O'Clock perpendicular to the rim of the toned coin could raise the surface of the bag just enough so it didn't touch the toned coin - would look like this:
SCENERIO 1 upper part of cloth bag ____________|<- Upper rim of perpendicular coin touching rim at approx 12:00 O'Clock on bag toned coin where the highest "untoned" toned coin | spot is (R-I of Pluribus) | other coins | <- touching coin + lots of other coins
Your scenerio would have to look like this:
Scenerio 2 untoned spot came from a configuration like below
______Bag______ / | / | <- 1 1/4 in high fold & no coins on either side of "fold" / | /___| __ "Bag toned coin" Lots of other coins
while you might be able to get the 2nd scenerio with only a few coins in the bag (a possibility), with a full bag, you'd never get the "fold" to stay in place to hold the perpendicular coin on the bag toning coin so that the cloth was ouching or in very close proximity to the surface of Russ' bag toned coin. Conversely, Scenerio 1would probably occur in several places in the same bag - you would even be able to run your hand over the outer cloth of the bag and feel the rims of coins slightly pushing the bag up and next to that slight protrusion the flat surface of an adjacent coin. So considering that scenerio 1 might occur 10-20 times in every bag, and scenerio 2 might, just maybe, occur once in a billion, which is the more likely cause of the untoned spot? You have to note that the physical diameter of a silver dollar is approx 1 1/4" so you need that length of a protuding fold to get scenerio 2 - not a likely occurance - ever. Again, fill a mint bag with 1000 silver dollars, pick it up and see how many 1 inch high protruding folds you get - then throw the bag on the floor and see what happens. unless you sew the touching coin into the bag, it probably won't happen in our lifetime, no matter how many times you toss that bag.
However, there may be an even more probable explanation which you've hit on with your "galvanic like reaction" comment. It may be that a small piece of dirt, metal or other foreign substance sat on that bag toned coin right around the B-E of Liberty and caused a chemical or maybe even a "galvanic reaction" that spread out and caused that L shaped darker bluish toning spot & the more uniform yellow-gold & magenta-blue toning resulted from the cloth of the bag - That may be an even more probable cause of that particular toning look
On the other hand, maybe that coin was toned quickly with H2S gas and those 2 lite spots up around 12:00 O'clock are where Russ held the coin while he waived it over those rotten eggs!
(Sorry 'bout the crude drawings - I couldn't find the etch-a-sketch)
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Well, Eric, you may be right - so why don't you explain to all of us exactly how it is that the coins tone when they are in the bag.
Which ones tone and which ones remain untoned? If they don't need to be in contact with the cloth of the bag, is there an optimal distance that they need to be from the cloth for them to tone? Seems that they are rather tightly packed together - do the coins in the inner portion of the bag that are protected from the cloth by other coins acquire bag toning. I'd be very interested in hearing your explanation of bag toning, particularly how the coins NOT in contact with the cloth acquire bag toning. >>
Silly questions from someone who appears to be looking for nothing more then a fight. Right? >>
Not so - Eric indicates that he has a superior knowledge that none of us other mortals possess - he's seen coins , so just a request that he share his wisdom with all of his - after all he's
<< <i>been on hand for several original bags being broken up and sorted >>
, so that being the case he would certainly know what happened to that bag for the previous 30, 40 or 50 years - wouldn't that be the logical inference of what Eric says? Or is it? Forensic evidence isn't quite that simple - seeing a coin AFTER the toning has occurred does not tell you what happened to it for the prior 100 years - it may give you an indication, but it is not definative, and quite frankly once that bag is picked up and moved the coins change position and when its opened and the coins removed, it is quite impossible to reconstruct the position of each coin relative to every other coin in the bag.
Eric says my
<< <i>statement is full of inaccuracies >>
- that's certainly possible - I'm offering a possible explanation as to how a small area could remain untoned - it's a supposition based on the physical characteristics of the toning process. My conclusion is this - it remained untoned because it wasn't in contact with what ever caused the toning to occur on the rest of the coin. I don't believe it is physically possible for the rim of a coin to sit on this coin and prevent only a small spot on the coin from toning. IF this is actually bag toning, for the simple reason that if that occured, the coin with the rim sitting on the other coin would prevent the toning you see on Russ' coin because the rest of the cloth of the bag would be too far away to cause the untouched portion of the coin to tone. Just put the rim of a coin on that spot on a silver dollar and try to get a piece of cloth to then get close enough to the surface of the other coin to cause toning - and then try and put it in a bag with a whole lot of other coins and see if it would be even remotely close to the source of the toning - the minimum distance from the cloth will be the diameter of the silver dollar. It's not impossible for a rim to touch another coin in that spot - it's just not possible for only 1 coin to remain on that spot once it's in the bag IF the bag is going to be in contact with the coin whose surface tones
All I'm requesting is that if Eric knows the process of bag toning and it differs from my understanding of the cloth being in contact with the coin, that he explain it to me and the rest of us.
If he doesn't want to explain it, then maybe he doesn't know the process (Hint: It's a physical process and a chemical reaction) But he says that my explanation is inaccurate - Perhaps he can help us all understand the toning procces so we can all avoid buying those nasty "AT" coins that keep getting listed on Ebay - you know those green ones that don't have the brown that proves NT
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
It's all about money, and it's hard to sell a $150 coin for $7500 as long as there is someone here with credibility cautioning people against it.
<< <i>I don't believe it is physically possible for the rim of a coin to sit on this coin and prevent only a small spot on the coin from toning. IF this is actually bag toning, for the simple reason that if that occured, the coin with the rim sitting on the other coin would prevent the toning you see on Russ' coin because the rest of the cloth of the bag would be too far away to cause the untouched portion of the coin to tone. >>
Actually, I could envision that happening if the coins were caught in a fold in the bag and that fold was wedged between them. Folds generally occur at angles, so I don't think it's inconceivable that this could cause an untoned area where the two coins made contact, with the rest of the coin toning because of the wedged in bag.
Russ, NCNE
Text
<< <i>BTW, how you folks think this one got it's "Toning." I'm trying to learn.
Text >>
Some eBay seller named Courigin expressed the opinion that the linked coin is not original.
Russ, NCNE
stman: You said <<<<<WOW, I can just "Feel the love" in this thread. BTW, how you folks think this one got it's "Toning." I'm trying to learn>>>>>
I agree! Fivecents just taught me something I never knew!!
<< <i>I don't believe it is physically possible for the rim of a coin to sit on this coin and prevent only a small spot on the coin from toning. IF this is actually bag toning, for the simple reason that if that occured, the coin with the rim sitting on the other coin would prevent the toning you see on Russ' coin because the rest of the cloth of the bag would be too far away to cause the untouched portion of the coin to tone. >>
Then tell me how it's possible for a coin to be sitting on velvet reverse down in a display case and the obverse tones? The obverse isn't touching any material but yet it tones?
<< <i>Some eBay seller named Courigin expressed the opinion that the linked coin is not original. >>
Russ, I don't understand and can't read between the lines?????
<< <i>Same $hit, same players, different day. >>
And this would mean???? BTW, TBT.... What happened to your neon lit Vegas style sig line?
CG
<< <i>How about we all meet somewhere there is a boxing ring and all duke it out at the same to relieve our anger towards each other- I think in wrestling they call this a battle royal? mike >>
Perhaps scheduled matches with ring girls announcing the start of each round?
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't believe it is physically possible for the rim of a coin to sit on this coin and prevent only a small spot on the coin from toning. IF this is actually bag toning, for the simple reason that if that occured, the coin with the rim sitting on the other coin would prevent the toning you see on Russ' coin because the rest of the cloth of the bag would be too far away to cause the untouched portion of the coin to tone. >>
Actually, I could envision that happening if the coins were caught in a fold in the bag and that fold was wedged between them. Folds generally occur at angles, so I don't think it's inconceivable that this could cause an untoned area where the two coins made contact, with the rest of the coin toning because of the wedged in bag. >>
Russ,
That could be a possibility - probably not likely because when the coins are in the bag and that 60 or so lbs is lifted the weight would tend to stretch out the folds - BUT in a partially full bag, there could be more likelihod that the extra unfilled space could fold and a coin could be caught in a fold and then rest on the surface of the other coin, but that bag would have to be on top (or have no other weight on top of the coin with its edge caught in the fold because a single coin would not stay on top perpendicular to the surface of the lower "toned" coin with another bag or 2 of coins on top. Also if caught in a fold, the cloth nearest the point of contact and extending in a line parallel to the axis of the "edge coin" there would be a line similar to the 1904-O with the untoned strip in Oreville's post - that's because even though only a small part of the rim touches the lower coin, the fold of the cloth could not get up underneath the lower part of the touching coin's rim so the cloth was again in contact with the lower "toning" coin. Not impossible, but not likely - also, when the bag is picked up to move it or open it, the touching coin would probably then slide along the surface of the toning coin and leave a scratch or abrasion a coin sitting with its rim perpendicular to another coin is not stable and won't remain that way when touched or moved.
Another possibility (all of these scenerio's are speculative) is that as coins are made in machine shops with presses that use grease and oil to lubricate them, that the untoned spot had a small amount of oil from the press room environment and that protected the surface of the coin in that spot just enough to prevent toning - what you can conclude is that something protected that area of the coin. Also, no one seems to mention that there is another small untoned area up towards the rim (between the R & I of Pluribus) which would raise the question of how that untoned spot was protected - although we'll never know for certain because none of us saw where that coin was postioned in the bag (assuming bag toning) when it acquired the toning - we are assuming it was either touching (or in very close proximity to) the cloth. There could be other sources of toning for that coin, it just seems to look like the type of toning that you see from coins that were in mint bags.
Russ, could you post an image of the reverse of that 1887 - I assume it's white or nearly white - if the reverse is toned also, the coin could be envelope toned as both sides would have been in close proximity to the cause (the envelope paper) of the toning.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Then tell me how it's possible for a coin to be sitting on velvet reverse down in a display case and the obverse tones? The obverse isn't touching any material but yet it tones? >>
Probably the same reason why Sterling silverware tones - its not in contact with cloth, but fro some reason all my wife's sterling gets "tarnished" and we have to polish the darn stuff every Thanksgiving when we have the family over for dinner - Silver can tone when its in an atmosphere with sulpher or sulpher gases present. The important part of the toning process is that the silver that tones has to be exposed to the to something that causes the surface to form a thin layer of siver sulfide. It can come from the air, it can come from being in contact with paper or cloth that reacts witht he silver to form a thin film across the surface.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Russ, could you post an image of the reverse of that 1887 - I assume it's white or nearly white - >>
That would be the image directly beneath the obverse in my post.
Russ, NCNE
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i>Russ, could you post an image of the reverse of that 1887 - I assume it's white or nearly white - >>
That would be the image directly beneath the obverse in my post.
Russ, NCNE >>
See what happens when you don't go back to the beggining before posting"
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>
<< <i>Then tell me how it's possible for a coin to be sitting on velvet reverse down in a display case and the obverse tones? The obverse isn't touching any material but yet it tones? >>
Probably the same reason why Sterling silverware tones - its not in contact with cloth, but fro some reason all my wife's sterling gets "tarnished" and we have to polish the darn stuff every Thanksgiving when we have the family over for dinner - Silver can tone when its in an atmosphere with sulpher or sulpher gases present. The important part of the toning process is that the silver that tones has to be exposed to the to something that causes the surface to form a thin layer of siver sulfide. It can come from the air, it can come from being in contact with paper or cloth that reacts witht he silver to form a thin film across the surface. >>
Then tell me why you think it's not possible for a coin to bag tone unless it is in contact with the cloth. Isn't that what you said in a previous post?
Ok I'll explain why I agree with K6AZ but you pretty much summed it up for me.
When you asked:
<<<The coin with the rim against the "toning" silver is approximately 1 1/2" in diameter. In order for the rim to rest on the toning silver dollar, its opposite rim would be 1 1/2 inches above the surface of the "toning" silver dollar - thereby raising the surface of the bag 1 1/2 inches AWAY from the coin that is "toning" - How could the surface of the mint bag tone the coin when its now raised like a tent away from the "toning" coin and physically unable to make contact with the "toning" coin?>>>
You answered yourself several posts later when you told Craton:
<<<Probably the same reason why Sterling silverware tones - its not in contact with cloth, but fro some reason all my wife's sterling gets "tarnished" and we have to polish the darn stuff every Thanksgiving when we have the family over for dinner - Silver can tone when its in an atmosphere with sulpher or sulpher gases present.>>>
But that's not what I think happened to this coin.
So I'm saying it wasn't necessarily in direct contact with the cloth of the Mint bag but might have been near a fold, crease, bubble tent or whatever; another coin was on edge touching it, these 2 coins were perpendicular, at a 90 degree angle, like the topbar & leg of the letter "T". If the offending coin WAS in the fold or crease then the cloth could have been closer than your stated 1½". The dark blue, almost black area is a galvanic like reaction where the 2 coins were touching.
Could have been a rat turd, wood chip, piece of trash or who knows what on that coin so I'm not bold enough to say I'm absolutely 100% correct but I'm pretty sure I'm close to being right.
Cause I didn't stick my fat head in the sack to see this firsthand.
this thread seems to have taken a "right" turn towards a discussion of how it hapened as opposed to "I'm right - You're wrong" which never solves anything or increases our level of knowledge.
<< <i>So I'm saying it wasn't necessarily in direct contact with the cloth of the Mint bag but might have been near a fold, crease, bubble tent or whatever; >>
I certainly concur that the 2 untoned areas towards the top of the coin probably resulted from this situation.
<< <i>another coin was on edge touching it, these 2 coins were perpendicular, at a 90 degree angle, like the topbar & leg of the letter "T". If the offending coin WAS in the fold or crease then the cloth could have been closer than your stated 1½". >>
Possible, but not probable - it's difficult to get a single coin to stand on edge on top of another coin, and in the bag, the simple weight of the bag itself would work against this happening - the reason is because this would have to occur along the outer edge of the coins within the bag and even the slightest movement would cause this unstable tent like condition to collapse. It would have to be a random occurance - I've seen many many sealed bags of coins and never seen a protrusion of a coin that was on edge - it's hard to do this - toss a thousand bags on the floor and tell me how many coins end up on edge making a little tent over the coins below - Again, it may be possible but very unlikely - besides on this particular coin there are 2 untoned spots, and according to the coin on end theory you would need 2 coins on end about a 1/4" apart. One would be pretty iffy, 2 would seem to defy all statistical probability.
<< <i> The dark blue, almost black area is a galvanic like reaction where the 2 coins were touching. >>
Possible, but only if the the 2 coins were of different metal composition (like copper and Zinc) Again I don't know if there was a Zinc coin in whatever bag that coin rested in, but as the mint did not begin making coins with zinc until almost a 100 years after that 1887 coin was made, it is not likely that you would get a galvanic reaction from a silver coin touching another silver coin. But I haven't studied Chemistry since I was a sophomore in college so I could have a faulty memory on this issue - Any chemists out there to answer that question?
<< <i>Could have been a rat turd, wood chip, piece of trash or who knows what on that coin so I'm not bold enough to say I'm absolutely 100% correct but I'm pretty sure I'm close to being right. Cause I didn't stick my fat head in the sack to see this firsthand >>
I just happen to think that my "guess" that there was a little gap/ crease/ fold in the cloth near 12:00 O'clock on that coin that slightly separated the cloth away from the suface of the coin in that area is far more likely than Eric's certainty that the untoned spot was caused by a coin standing on edge on top of a coin at the edge of a 60 lb bag of silver dollars. Throw a few bags of silver dollars in a pile and let me know when one coin stands on end on top of another at the edge of the bag as Eric (and you) think happened. You gotta remember that those bags were thrown onto carts and then thrown into the storage vaults THEN they sat for a long time - Those guys moving those bags were not coin collectors trying to gently preserve those coins for us future collectors.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
First of all the "coin on edge theory" is reasonable when you stop and think about it. Mint bag toning is the easiest toning in the world to identify & explain, except when Russ posts his infamous questionable toners just to stir up a bunch of shiat. The offending coin was not necessarily standing perfectly balanced on Russ's coin waiting to topple one way or the other at the slightest disturbance, not like when you are sitting in a beerjoint bored out of your mind balancing quarters on their edge on the bartop then your friend comes over and slams his fist down on the bar and makes them fall over.
I said standing on edge because that puts a good picture in your mind but that is overly simplistic because that sounds like only 2 coin and a piece of cloth were involved. It could have been a pile of a dozen jumbled coins in any array but the important thing is that somehow or another a small part of the rim edge of another coin was touching it @ RTY in LIBERTY. The offending coin might have been laying on it's side up in a crease & Russ's was in the main part of the bag and it wouldn't matter how much the bags were tossed around & restacked, the important thing to remember is simply that 2 coins were touching each other.
Of course everyone knows that a galvanic reaction occurs between dissimiliar metals; that's why I said galvanic "like" reaction because I was being overly simplistic and didn't want to confuse everybody with a bunch of babbling scientific BS. If you want all that you need to call somebody like TomB. But anyway, if you look at most crescents where 2 coins overlapped you often see a blackish blue line defining the border (like on Liberty's headband here) where coin touched coin-THEN the colors start normal rainbow, monochrome or whatever progession.
So I'm not going to say I'm 100% right but all these keystrokes I just made explaining my opinion is more than just a wild guess.
Sorry I didn't insult or flame anybody but my fingers are tired now and must rest.
SCENERIO 1
upper part of cloth bag
____________|<- Upper rim of perpendicular coin touching rim at approx 12:00 O'Clock on bag toned coin where the highest "untoned"
toned coin | spot is (R-I of Pluribus)
|
other coins | <- touching coin + lots of other coins
Your scenerio would have to look like this:
Scenerio 2 untoned spot came from a configuration like below
______Bag______
/ |
/ | <- 1 1/4 in high fold & no coins on either side of "fold"
/ |
/___| __
"Bag toned coin"
Lots of other coins
while you might be able to get the 2nd scenerio with only a few coins in the bag (a possibility), with a full bag, you'd never get the "fold" to stay in place to hold the perpendicular coin on the bag toning coin so that the cloth was ouching or in very close proximity to the surface of Russ' bag toned coin. Conversely, Scenerio 1would probably occur in several places in the same bag - you would even be able to run your hand over the outer cloth of the bag and feel the rims of coins slightly pushing the bag up and next to that slight protrusion the flat surface of an adjacent coin. So considering that scenerio 1 might occur 10-20 times in every bag, and scenerio 2 might, just maybe, occur once in a billion, which is the more likely cause of the untoned spot? You have to note that the physical diameter of a silver dollar is approx 1 1/4" so you need that length of a protuding fold to get scenerio 2 - not a likely occurance - ever. Again, fill a mint bag with 1000 silver dollars, pick it up and see how many 1 inch high protruding folds you get - then throw the bag on the floor and see what happens. unless you sew the touching coin into the bag, it probably won't happen in our lifetime, no matter how many times you toss that bag.
However, there may be an even more probable explanation which you've hit on with your "galvanic like reaction" comment. It may be that a small piece of dirt, metal or other foreign substance sat on that bag toned coin right around the B-E of Liberty and caused a chemical or maybe even a "galvanic reaction" that spread out and caused that L shaped darker bluish toning spot & the more uniform yellow-gold & magenta-blue toning resulted from the cloth of the bag - That may be an even more probable cause of that particular toning look
On the other hand, maybe that coin was toned quickly with H2S gas and those 2 lite spots up around 12:00 O'clock are where Russ held the coin while he waived it over those rotten eggs!
(Sorry 'bout the crude drawings - I couldn't find the etch-a-sketch)
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist