NGC-to-PCGS crossover, Yeah!! Yeah!! Yeah!! But what about PCGS-to-NGC?? Huh??
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
A crossover from an NGC holder to a PCGS holder seems all too common, at least the attempt.
But what about crossing from a PCGS holder to an NGC holder?? While it's been stressed ad nauseum in the past that same grade coins in both holders are selling at ever closer prices, a fallacy I believe, why aren't more collectors/dealers crossing their PCGS coins to NGC holders?? The better question might be why do collectors/dealers attempt to cross from PCGS to NGC if the values of the coin are the same in the same grade?? There should be a reason, right??
Help me get a grip on this riddle. Could it be that PCGS holdered coins really sell at a premium to their NGC counterparts?? Could it be that a PCGS holdered coin is perceived as being better in quality than it's same grade NGC counterpart?? Is it really, really all just Registry Set driven?? Are those who attempt crossovers escapees from some Nut Ranch who need some time in an "I love myself" jacket??
Questions, too many questions. I need answers!!!!!!
Has anyone ever tried a PCGS-to-NGC crossover??
Al H.
But what about crossing from a PCGS holder to an NGC holder?? While it's been stressed ad nauseum in the past that same grade coins in both holders are selling at ever closer prices, a fallacy I believe, why aren't more collectors/dealers crossing their PCGS coins to NGC holders?? The better question might be why do collectors/dealers attempt to cross from PCGS to NGC if the values of the coin are the same in the same grade?? There should be a reason, right?? Help me get a grip on this riddle. Could it be that PCGS holdered coins really sell at a premium to their NGC counterparts?? Could it be that a PCGS holdered coin is perceived as being better in quality than it's same grade NGC counterpart?? Is it really, really all just Registry Set driven?? Are those who attempt crossovers escapees from some Nut Ranch who need some time in an "I love myself" jacket??
Questions, too many questions. I need answers!!!!!!
Has anyone ever tried a PCGS-to-NGC crossover??
Al H.
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My momma told me "you better shop around"
Jeremy
peacockcoins
al h.
the higher priced PCGS holdered coin, 1 point lower. I guess I could have structured a less
confusing sentence, but Im just a bear, what do I know.
Camelot
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
<< <i>I just like the way PCGS holders look...the lustre is more visible than in a recessed NGC holder...
Exactly. I can't stand the NGC holder. From all accounts, they refuse to change it. If they would switch back to a black insert, or go to an opaque holder I would own a lot more NGC coins.
It's really that simple to me.
Of course there are the whiners that get upset when they try and cross for the big "Rip."
I have also thought about trying the PCGS-to-NGC crossover with Eisenhower dollars. I have had a lot of PCGS MS64 1972 Ike dollars that sure looked like they should be MS65.
Charlie
Todays perception is that PCGS slabs are worth much more than NGC.
I think thats BS !
Grading is very subjective,i think i have pissed away enough money in the last 6 months to compare the top 2 and i see no difference in the quality of the coins, yet the NGC coins sell for about 60% of the PCGS coins !
Is that because PCGS has a retail price list readily available to the public ? Very likely !
Even though the PCGS price guide is highly inflated !
EX: 1957 Jeff nickel in PR68CAM at 2200.00 dollars,what would you pay for that coin if you needed it ?
I have one in an NGC holder and the grading on these is very similar in NGC vs PCGS,i sure as hell didnt pay any where near that money for it.
I love my NGC coins and i would put them up against PCGS coins any day !
Would i crack em and risk the PCGS grader having a bad day and giving me the harpoon ?
Hell no !
Link O Rama
These are mine and i am proud of them !
-YN Currently Collecting & Researching Colonial World Coins, Especially Spanish Coins, With a Great Interest in WWII Militaria.
My Ebay!
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i> or go to an opaque holder I would own a lot more NGC coins. >>
This would be a good thing for NGC to do. My reasoning is that I think as more and more internet buying/selling happens there will be a need for better photos. And NGC holders a much harder to photograph due to the amount of light that gets reflected back making the aperture close and make DARKER pictures. I know that if you fiddle around enough you can fix it but MOST people just take the shot and go with it (like Hertigage seems to do on their less expensive material). Either a darker non-reflective material needs to be used or opaque will do the trick.
jom
First POTD 9/19/05!!
<< <i>Has anyone ever tried a PCGS-to-NGC crossover?? >>
We don't need no stinkin' NGC holders!
I've seen an awful lot of MS61/2 coins in NGC holders, where in PCGS holders they would certainly get 58's 8 times out of 10. And some of the 58's that come out of NGC are pathetic.
I personally decided I would use PCGS because I believe they are more conservative on grades at this level (most of the time), where I see NGC more liberal (most of the time). I would not have said the same in 1990, at which point I actually believed (and still do) that NGC was the tougher of the two (by a slight margin). I also am very disappointed with NGC grading more and more obviously (and marginally acceptable) conserved pieces. Finally, I do like the PCGS holders MUCH better.
Anyway, I believe the market supports these observations.
I see a lot less thick NGC slabs than first and second generation PCGS slabs in all grades, and I see a lot more recent NGC 61's and 62's than from PCGS.
In some series, and for certain pieces, where the speads from AU to MS60 and then to 63 are high, it seems the NGC 62 will sell for higher than the PCGS 58 ... it may take them a little longer to sell, but the price will usually be easier to "justify" in the 62 holder. That would be a good reason for a seller to grab an acurately graded better-date Barber (for example) in 58 and send it to NGC going for the 62 (or maybe even a shot at 63). Hey, send in ten, and if a couple shots hit it would be worth it.
Just my thoughts ...
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
<< <i>I might take some flak on this one, but I believe it to be true, at least at the grade I collect the most which is Very Choice AU.
I've seen an awful lot of MS61/2 coins in NGC holders, where in PCGS holders they would certainly get 58's 8 times out of 10. And some of the 58's that come out of NGC are pathetic.
I personally decided I would use PCGS because I believe they are more conservative on grades at this level (most of the time), where I see NGC more liberal (most of the time). I would not have said the same in 1990, at which point I actually believed (and still do) that NGC was the tougher of the two (by a slight margin). I also am very disappointed with NGC grading more and more obviously (and marginally acceptable) conserved pieces. Finally, I do like the PCGS holders MUCH better.
Anyway, I believe the market supports these observations.
I see a lot less thick NGC slabs than first and second generation PCGS slabs in all grades, and I see a lot more recent NGC 61's and 62's than from PCGS.
In some series, and for certain pieces, where the speads from AU to MS60 and then to 63 are high, it seems the NGC 62 will sell for higher than the PCGS 58 ... it may take them a little longer to sell, but the price will usually be easier to "justify" in the 62 holder. That would be a good reason for a seller to grab an acurately graded better-date Barber (for example) in 58 and send it to NGC going for the 62 (or maybe even a shot at 63). Hey, send in ten, and if a couple shots hit it would be worth it.
Just my thoughts ... >>
Then how do you account for all the AU bust halves that are being cracked out of older PCGS slabs that are coming back as MS62?? Or any of the other older PCGS coins that are being upped on resubs?? How about all the coins that get a 2-3 point bump up due to 'eye appeal' or 'market grading' like rainbow toners? Should an MS64 Morgan with color really be in a 66 slab when it's otherwise identical, but white bretheren are not? PCGS is becoming a lot looser recently, and I think it is hurting the hobby.
When it comes to Braided Hair & Liberty Nickels, PCGS coins generally sell for noticeably more than NGC material in MS 60 & above. I do not find this to be the case with Seated or Barber material, or pre 1835 coinage.
Anecdotally, late last year, I bought the nicest SLQ in FH 6 I've ever seen (a 29P), and it is in a recently slabbed NGC holder. I do not intend this sentence to bash PCGS, however, I sincerely believe you can find good value in buying properly graded NGC coins due to the preconception that PCGS coins are always worth more in the same grade.
Here's a secret............they aren't. Don't tell anybody.................................
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
this single point seems to drive the discussion, that being the understanding that you need to look for the "properly graded NGC coins" whereas it's generally assumed that PCGS holdered coins are properly graded. the crossover question i've posed also seems to hinge on a single point----getting a coin into a PCGS holder on a cross seems to be more difficult than going the other way, with the PCGS-to-whomever often meaning a bump, if i'm reading the replies correctly.
i'm not saying it's right---wrong---indifferent, but the general perception tends toward PCGS being more strict and subsequently setting the standard by which others are judged. i find it interesting that the majority of submitters using NGC to a greater degree in the last year or so haven't done so because they feel that service grades stricter. quite conversely, they tend to almost unanimously agree that they just need their coins back quicker and willingly sacrifice to keep the money flowing.
my needs with regard to non-PCGS holdered coins are simple and two-fold. sometimes the nice coins are just in other service holders and sometimes PCGS just refuses to grade in certain areas of the hobby or offer things such as variety designations. in all, it seems i sometimes consider the holder more important than other times while still granting the coin inside it's due pre-eminence. that makes for a new little saying, buy the coin but consider the holder.
al h.
<< <i>I might take some flak on this one, but I believe it to be true, at least at the grade I collect the most which is Very Choice AU.
I've seen an awful lot of MS61/2 coins in NGC holders, where in PCGS holders they would certainly get 58's 8 times out of 10. And some of the 58's that come out of NGC are pathetic. >>
Agreed. I have some PCGS 58s and some NGC 58s. While there are plenty of choice NGC 58s -- and I've found a few -- the ratio of "choice" 58 to total 58s is considerably lower in NGC holders than in PCGS holders. The PCGS coins are more likely to be the so-called "AU-62s" or the "gems with a trace of rub." I have to look at a lot more NGC 58s to find a really nice piece. Maybe one out of 10 NGC 58s are coins I'd want in my type collection, as opposed to one out of (say) three or four PCGS 58s.
In many other grades, I don't see much of a difference, though at some point in their history NGC may have been, on average, a half-point looser on many MS grades (though I'm not sure that's the case now). But there's no doubt in my mind that the *average* PCGS 58 is more choice than the *average* NGC 58.
The 41P in my merc short set is an ANACS MS 69....why in the world would I crack it????
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
First POTD 9/19/05!!
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>I have NGC coins that I like. I have ANACS coins that I like. I'm not going to crack out any of them just to get a PCGS slab around them. I'll crack out third tier holders and submit raws, but I think PCGS is over rated in many instances. They hold only the bottom bands as being relevant to a FB designation on Roosies, whereas NGC consider the strike of the whole torch for their FT designation. PCGS considers only the bottom set of lines for an FBL designation on Frankies. NGC also considers the top set of lines before giving out a FBL. ANACS is harsh when it comes to moderns. You see moderns in PCGS slabs all the time in 67-up grades. How many do you see in ANACS slabs?? Not many. I have seen moderns in ANACS slabs in 63-64 when there are NONE in those grades at either PCGS or NGC, so when you do see the rare ANACS slab with a high grade on it, you tend to think it's legit. NGC and ANACS have PCGS beat by a wide margin when it comes to denoting errors and varieties on their holders. NGC (via NCS) and ANACS will also holder the damaged or cleaned coins that PCGS won't touch. Have I managed to instill any doubts in your collective minds concerning PCGS 'premium' status??? >>
I agree with that 150%, very well put sliderider.
-YN Currently Collecting & Researching Colonial World Coins, Especially Spanish Coins, With a Great Interest in WWII Militaria.
My Ebay!
<< <i>Hi Andrew. I can't speak from an "insiders" point of view at PCGS, (It's been 15 years since I last graded there) and I wouldn't say anything derogatory about them, especially on their board, it's not my style. As for NGC, I'd be happy to share any information that is not proprietary... I thought I gave a great deal of information in my recent interview with Maurice Rosen, in the RNA. Everyone that read it seems to think it was a good read. >>
Thanks for responding John! Is there a link to read your interview online?
My question wasn't trying to dig up any dirt on anyone, either PCGS or NGC. I only asked because you may give a fresh perspective from your vast experience and expertise with coins, and with TPG's that none of us who post here or the NGC forums may have heard, or understood. You are the type of guy that many of us would love to sit down and talk to about your experiences. I don't think any of us here would ever ask you to reveal proprietary information.
The forums are a good place to educate. So many threads such as this one, appear here repeatedly and beg for some sort of insight. Possibly from someone who can help us collectors wade through all of the variables, good and bad, to make wise collecting decisions. We all have our observations and opinions, but it would be informational to hear something from someone who has been there, in just about every capacity imaginable in the coin business.
Anyway, I'm hoping that your new business is moving along well, and I'll look forward to buying from you in the near future.
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Russ, NCNE
The RNA interview will be at my website in another 2 or 3 weeks. Until then, I'd be happy to send you or anyone else a copy that PM's me their address.
I'd be happy to try and answer any direct questions about my experiences while at NGC. I'm not really much of a story teller when it comes to grading coins though, but Im happy to share useful information. The reality is that after many years it became routine for me. Of course, I still enjoyed many aspects of it.
A wonderful position indeed, but I needed a change.
Being a dealer again, has been an invigorating experience so far.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
When submitting an order to be graded, is it beneficial or detrimental to "present" the coins to be graded in a specific order? Such as:
1) by denomination.
2) by eye appeal.
3) by perceived grade.
4) by toned/untoned.
5) by metal composition (all copper, all silver etc.)
6) by coin size.
If you were submitting coins to NGC or PCGS, how would you do it?
First POTD 9/19/05!!
More NGC for me!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I have a new strategy.
It's called "none". I am totally serious. I've done better (it seems) just throwing them up in the air (figuratively of course) and whichever way they land I submit them.
This leads me to conclude that if you're spending time trying to figure out how to arrange your coins, unless it's just plain fun, you're probably wasting time.
I will say though that if I have a sexy group of coins that are similar in look I do still like to submit them together.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
I've all but stopped selling coins, and am collecting again, so I'm a raw coin buyer, even when they're holdered. It's amazing how one's focus changes from the market value of the holder to the aesthetics.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Any comments re PCGS and NGC and grading must relate to specific grades in specific series of coins, and when they were graded, or they mean nothing. >>
-- Elcontador
As many others, I strongly agree with this. I purchased many of my buffalo nickels in the 1992-1995 time frame. Most raw, some PCGS, some NGC and some Hallmark. Most of my purchases were for MS 63 coins, and at that time, NGC and PCGS graded about the same. However, the PCGS coins actually cost less! The market valued the NGC buffalos more highly than the PCGS ones. So, I ended up with about 8 PCGS green label buffalos, and only one NGC buffalo
Richard
MS Buffalo
MS 1951
<< <i>I just like the way PCGS holders look...the lustre is more visible than in a recessed NGC holder...
I believe that is a big part of it. Coins just look better with clear around them like they're "floating". Small coins like
half dimes & trimes get lost in the NGC holders. It's like they're in a tunnel.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.