This company has been around for a while and the fact that the slabs are similar to PCGS' has been brought up before, too. Don't remember the outcome though.
Think about cars, TVs you name it....as long as the next guy alters just one small thing, there can be no copyright infringement. There are what they call "design patents" and if the design is altered in the least, again no infringement otherwise there would only be one of everything- one car, one A/C, one refrigerator, one toothbrush.
I am responsible for color wear indicators on toothbrushes. It all began with an idea for disposable toothbrush heads. Idea came from disposable shavers (Bic, Schick etc) Obviously there would need to be something to indicate WHEN the head was to be changed. Everything was done by the book, patent protected but the Big Boys altered it and now everybody has color wear indicators. No problem here that I can see.
This IS America, the land of free enterprise. Is there only ONE hamburger? No, each is altered slightly from the next! Think about it and BTW, even PCGS, NGC etc had to have starting points. I'm sure the first grading service had a good laugh at this fledgling outfit named PCGS and their funky little rattly coin holders when they first came out. Look whose laughing now!
"Think about cars, TVs you name it....as long as the next guy alters just one small thing, there can be no copyright infringement."
Patent and copyright law is very complex. With all due respect, your statement is a gross oversimplification of the law. Have you ever eaten a hamburger at a "Max Donalds," for example?
I'm almost certain that if PCGS were to pursue this TCGS thing, using the proper legal channels of course, something would change in Tennessee and it wouldn't be the weather.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
This TCGS™ Guarantee shall not apply to: (a) any clerical error with respect to the description or grade of the coin which would be reasonably noticed upon inspection; (b) any copper coins submitted due to their particular susceptibility to oxidation; (c) any coins subjected to improper storage conditions (extreme temperatures or extreme conditions) and (d) any coins not encapsulated by TCGS™. Due to the subjective nature of coin grading, TCGS™ (like with any and all grading services), cannot guarantee that the grade assigned will conform with the opinions of any competitor's grading services as the particular grade assigned may vary due to the interpretation of a particular coins level of preservation and/or changes within the ambient traditionally accepted guidelines or standards of such considerations or factors such as the "opinion" of a coin state of preservation coupled with market trends which can affect the subjective nature of coin grading.
<< <i>This TCGS™ Guarantee shall not apply to: (a) any clerical error with respect to the description or grade of the coin which would be reasonably noticed upon inspection; (b) any copper coins submitted due to their particular susceptibility to oxidation; (c) any coins subjected to improper storage conditions (extreme temperatures or extreme conditions) and (d) any coins not encapsulated by TCGS™. Due to the subjective nature of coin grading, TCGS™ (like with any and all grading services), cannot guarantee that the grade assigned will conform with the opinions of any competitor's grading services as the particular grade assigned may vary due to the interpretation of a particular coins level of preservation and/or changes within the ambient traditionally accepted guidelines or standards of such considerations or factors such as the "opinion" of a coin state of preservation coupled with market trends which can affect the subjective nature of coin grading.
I just bid $3--which willl surely be the top bid (assuming one of you fiends don't snipe it). Adding the $4 shipping charge means I'll be into it for $7!! What a deal!. However, I've seen this seller get some very good prices for his all sales final estate coins over the years so I can't be too optimistic--particularly since this is in a TCGS slab.
Just checked it again and it's up to $1.25--and I went and revealed my proxy in this post. Rats!!
Edited to add: After visiting their website, I noted the fact that their concern about the "self proclaimed experts" at PCGS (and I guess NGC and Anacs) doesn't prevent them using a name and slab design that replicates that of PCGS. I do think that there is room for new services that take a traditional or even novel approach to grading and certification--but they need to stand on their own and not try to ride the coat tails of other services while simultaneously bashing them.
For all fans of the TCGS, check out this link. Here the Department of Justice is going after Twnety-First Century Grading Service for various counts of fraud.
I saw the TCGS holder - looks like a carbon copy of a PCGS holder. I'm suprised that PCGS did not take some form of legal action, and if I was PCGS, a copyright on the design of their holders would be strongly suggested. Namewise, PCGS cannot do much about it.
DORAN COINS - On Facebook, Instagram, X (formerly Twitter), & www.dorancoins.net - UPCOMING SHOWS (tentative dates)- 10/8/2023 - Fairfield, IL, 11/5/2023 - Urbana, IL., 12/3/2023 - Mattoon, IL.
Has anybody here bought a coin in one of their slabs? I do side with the point the ANA should not have endorsed NGC as their official grading company. What's the difference in having a grading company and endorsing one?
Mark and Tonelover, very interesting articles. Too bad it took that long to stop them. A lot of good and trusting people got taken. Very sad and eye-opening stories
Wow, what a scandalous hobby/obsession/leisurly passtime we are in! In following these links I noticed that the TCGS "website" is actually a members area on AOL. Does AOL know that they are hosting a "website" for a company that its principles are now convicted felons?
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>This TCGS™ Guarantee shall not apply to: (a) any clerical error with respect to the description or grade of the coin which would be reasonably noticed upon inspection; (b) any copper coins submitted due to their particular susceptibility to oxidation; (c) any coins subjected to improper storage conditions (extreme temperatures or extreme conditions) and (d) any coins not encapsulated by TCGS™. Due to the subjective nature of coin grading, TCGS™ (like with any and all grading services), cannot guarantee that the grade assigned will conform with the opinions of any competitor's grading services as the particular grade assigned may vary due to the interpretation of a particular coins level of preservation and/or changes within the ambient traditionally accepted guidelines or standards of such considerations or factors such as the "opinion" of a coin state of preservation coupled with market trends which can affect the subjective nature of coin grading. >>
So what is wrong with the emphisised sections? The PCGS guarantee doesn't cover "mechanical errors" on the grade either. Nor do they guarantee that NGC or any other service will give the same grade that PCGS does, or that they will give the same grade that some other service did. PCGS has the same positions as what you are complaining about with TCGS. So if TCGS is "evil" for those reasons, so is PCGS.
<< <i>This TCGS™ Guarantee shall not apply to: (a) any clerical error with respect to the description or grade of the coin which would be reasonably noticed upon inspection; (b) any copper coins submitted due to their particular susceptibility to oxidation; (c) any coins subjected to improper storage conditions (extreme temperatures or extreme conditions) and (d) any coins not encapsulated by TCGS™. Due to the subjective nature of coin grading, TCGS™ (like with any and all grading services), cannot guarantee that the grade assigned will conform with the opinions of any competitor's grading services as the particular grade assigned may vary due to the interpretation of a particular coins level of preservation and/or changes within the ambient traditionally accepted guidelines or standards of such considerations or factors such as the "opinion" of a coin state of preservation coupled with market trends which can affect the subjective nature of coin grading.
Emphasis added by me. >>
So what they are saying is that if they incorrectly grade a coin, they get to blame it on a clerical error in typing up the tag and you're screwed.
<< <i>So what they are saying is that if they incorrectly grade a coin, they get to blame it on a clerical error in typing up the tag and you're screwed. >>
And PCGS could do the same. And I'm sure in some cases they have. The key is this part of the guarantee:
<a) any clerical error with respect to the description or grade of the coin which would be reasonably noticed upon inspection >
No sensible person would hold a service liable in that case for a typo on a grade. (A difference of a point on a MS coin would not fall under a "reasonably noticed", three points probably would.)
Frankly I am surprised that with the goverment after them and all the unhappy customers after them with a number of lawsuits that they still can operate and "grade" coins too. I am amazed that they are still in business.
<< <i>Frankly I am surprised that with the goverment after them and all the unhappy customers after them with a number of lawsuits that they still can operate and "grade" coins too. I am amazed that they are still in business. >>
Last I read, They can't do any business. Their assets are frozen.
Member Steamfitters Local 614 USMC Veteran 1981-1992 Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
Comments
******
******
I am responsible for color wear indicators on toothbrushes. It all began with an idea for disposable toothbrush heads. Idea came from disposable shavers (Bic, Schick etc) Obviously there would need to be something to indicate WHEN the head was to be changed. Everything was done by the book, patent protected but the Big Boys altered it and now everybody has color wear indicators. No problem here that I can see.
This IS America, the land of free enterprise. Is there only ONE hamburger? No, each is altered slightly from the next! Think about it and BTW, even PCGS, NGC etc had to have starting points. I'm sure the first grading service had a good laugh at this fledgling outfit named PCGS and their funky little rattly coin holders when they first came out. Look whose laughing now!
Patent and copyright law is very complex. With all due respect, your statement is a gross oversimplification of the law.
Have you ever eaten a hamburger at a "Max Donalds," for example?
I'm almost certain that if PCGS were to pursue this TCGS thing, using the proper legal channels of course, something would change in Tennessee and it wouldn't be the weather.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Their website
Check out the grading procedures. Looks like just 2 real employees!!! One of them is even a doctored photo:
Cameron Kiefer
"every special characteristics"
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Emphasis added by me.
<< <i>This TCGS™ Guarantee shall not apply to: (a) any clerical error with respect to the description or grade of the coin which would be reasonably noticed upon inspection; (b) any copper coins submitted due to their particular susceptibility to oxidation; (c) any coins subjected to improper storage conditions (extreme temperatures or extreme conditions) and (d) any coins not encapsulated by TCGS™. Due to the subjective nature of coin grading, TCGS™ (like with any and all grading services), cannot guarantee that the grade assigned will conform with the opinions of any competitor's grading services as the particular grade assigned may vary due to the interpretation of a particular coins level of preservation and/or changes within the ambient traditionally accepted guidelines or standards of such considerations or factors such as the "opinion" of a coin state of preservation coupled with market trends which can affect the subjective nature of coin grading.
Emphasis added by me. >>
Doesn't that pretty much exclude everything?
<< <i>They just photoshoped in a beard on the second guy and you have another employee! >>
And they put their receptionist/data entry clerk into another outfit, and *presto*, she's a grader...
Just checked it again and it's up to $1.25--and I went and revealed my proxy in this post. Rats!!
Edited to add: After visiting their website, I noted the fact that their concern about the "self proclaimed experts" at PCGS (and I guess NGC and Anacs) doesn't prevent them using a name and slab design that replicates that of PCGS. I do think that there is room for new services that take a traditional or even novel approach to grading and certification--but they need to stand on their own and not try to ride the coat tails of other services while simultaneously bashing them.
Mark
RE: U.S. Coin Exchange, Inc.
A happy customer
Jerry
www.<B>tcgs</B>.org/</FONT>
TwoDogs Coin Grading Service??
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
They tout about how much $$$ PCGS makes off of regrades
Ironically, TCGS charges for regrades!
<< <i>This TCGS™ Guarantee shall not apply to: (a) any clerical error with respect to the description or grade of the coin which would be reasonably noticed upon inspection; (b) any copper coins submitted due to their particular susceptibility to oxidation; (c) any coins subjected to improper storage conditions (extreme temperatures or extreme conditions) and (d) any coins not encapsulated by TCGS™. Due to the subjective nature of coin grading, TCGS™ (like with any and all grading services), cannot guarantee that the grade assigned will conform with the opinions of any competitor's grading services as the particular grade assigned may vary due to the interpretation of a particular coins level of preservation and/or changes within the ambient traditionally accepted guidelines or standards of such considerations or factors such as the "opinion" of a coin state of preservation coupled with market trends which can affect the subjective nature of coin grading. >>
So what is wrong with the emphisised sections? The PCGS guarantee doesn't cover "mechanical errors" on the grade either. Nor do they guarantee that NGC or any other service will give the same grade that PCGS does, or that they will give the same grade that some other service did. PCGS has the same positions as what you are complaining about with TCGS. So if TCGS is "evil" for those reasons, so is PCGS.
<< <i>This TCGS™ Guarantee shall not apply to: (a) any clerical error with respect to the description or grade of the coin which would be reasonably noticed upon inspection; (b) any copper coins submitted due to their particular susceptibility to oxidation; (c) any coins subjected to improper storage conditions (extreme temperatures or extreme conditions) and (d) any coins not encapsulated by TCGS™. Due to the subjective nature of coin grading, TCGS™ (like with any and all grading services), cannot guarantee that the grade assigned will conform with the opinions of any competitor's grading services as the particular grade assigned may vary due to the interpretation of a particular coins level of preservation and/or changes within the ambient traditionally accepted guidelines or standards of such considerations or factors such as the "opinion" of a coin state of preservation coupled with market trends which can affect the subjective nature of coin grading.
Emphasis added by me. >>
So what they are saying is that if they incorrectly grade a coin, they get to blame it on a clerical error in typing up the tag and you're screwed.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>So what they are saying is that if they incorrectly grade a coin, they get to blame it on a clerical error in typing up the tag and you're screwed. >>
And PCGS could do the same. And I'm sure in some cases they have. The key is this part of the guarantee:
<a) any clerical error with respect to the description or grade of the coin which would be reasonably noticed upon inspection >
No sensible person would hold a service liable in that case for a typo on a grade. (A difference of a point on a MS coin would not fall under a "reasonably noticed", three points probably would.)
that they still can operate and "grade" coins too.
I am amazed that they are still in business.
<< <i>Frankly I am surprised that with the goverment after them and all the unhappy customers after them with a number of lawsuits
that they still can operate and "grade" coins too.
I am amazed that they are still in business. >>
Last I read, They can't do any business. Their assets are frozen.
USMC Veteran 1981-1992
Cold War Veteran
It's truly funny, no make that truly sad, that people in this day and age are so wrapped up in their own little world that they refuse to try and teach someone else the correct or accepted way of doing things.
<< <i>They just photoshoped in a beard on the second guy and you have another employee! >>
Perhaps he's just changed his appearance to avoid arrest ala Scott Peterson?
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