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Willie, Mickey or The Duke ???
DirtyHarry
Posts: 1,914 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
A little change of pace. You are putting together a team, and could have the services of either Mays, Mantle or Snyder as your centerfielder for 5 years, basis any 5 consecutive years within their respective careers. Who would you pick, what 5 year timeframe, and why? Regards.
"A man's got to know his limitations...." Dirty Harry
Unfocused, impulsive collector of everything ...
Unfocused, impulsive collector of everything ...
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Duke, a top-flight Hall of Famer suffers from being compared to two of the greatest of all time, kinda like Frank Robinson.
Unfocused, impulsive collector of everything ...
Ill take Mantle and his speed in the late 50's over Willie.....where is Soriano in all of this? Oh wait he plays
second.
Kevin
He was the easiest to get an auto from in the kid friendly era of auto hawking in NYC.
Stone
Collector of Vintage Golf cards! Let me know what you might have.
But he'd be a distant last of the 3 I"d want to meet.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
I agree.
you failed to mention that he had over 90, 5 times and if averaged out over a 162 game schedule his average was 102 rbi per yr he also scored over 100 8 or 9 times I think the reason he "had" only 4 1oo rbi seasons is that he was a lead off hitter early in his career and he was injured alot too. of the three he is the only one to have a triple crown season and we all know how many RINGS he had.
as for Mays he was a superstar in his own right
as for Snider well to be brought up in the same breath as the 2 preceeding guys says it all too.
Mickey Mantle
Even after all these years I still say Mays.
Mantle had a lifetime .421 OBP compared to Mays .384.
Their slugging percentages were the same.
Can’t go wrong with either one.
Oh I agree your not losing by taking either one.
Mantle had a lifetime .421 OBP.
Mike Tout has a lifetime .419 OBP.
Blows me away the guys who can get on base 4 out of 10 times consistently throughout their careers.
We may also be seeing a modern day Mantle in Trout.
By the late 50's Mantle was still a faster runner than Mays??? I call BS to that. Mantle got hurt very early on in his career. He also did not steal tons of bases. If I line Willie and Mickey up for a 50 yard dash in 1960....my money is on Willie.
All 3 were tremendous. And all 3 had a heck of a 5 year run.
Mickey Mantle: 1956-60
He lead the AL in runs 4 of the 5 seasons.
He lead the AL in home runs 3 of the 5 seasons.
He lead the AL in runs batted in 1 of the 5 seasons.
He lead the AL in OPS in 2 of the 5 seasons and OPS+ in 4 of the 5 seasons.
He lead the AL in total bases in 3 of the 5 seasons.
He won two MVPs, finished 2nd once, 5th once and in the other, 17th (in an injury plagued 1959).
5x All Star over the span
Lastly, in 1956, Mickey Mantle won the MLB triple crown, leading all of baseball in R, HR and RBI - not just the American League - and his 52 HR are the highest total in any triple crown season in history.
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Heart says Mantle, brain says Mays. Sorry, Duke.
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Distant 3rd: Snider, 1952-1956
I don't think people are actually reading your question. They seldom do.
I looked at the "best" 5 year run from each player and narrowed my focus on 5 categories plus defense and decided they were the same player at the same time playing SUPERBLY for three different teams.
There is no "winner" here imo, but to answer the question; I'll take the "Duke".
Things I didn't care about; Who would win a footrace at any age, RBI and Runs didn't count for me, neither did batting average, stolen bases or strikeouts. I almost ignored Bases on Balls too. More on that later.
Making any of these things important could change my answer, but many of these stats are dependent on their team mates and I don't know who they were.
I looked at;
Snider from 1953-1957
Mays from 1954-1958
Mantle from 1954-1958
I looked at games played, total bases, walks, home runs, slugging percentage and defensive ability (subjective). I also decided I was looking for a "clean up" hitter, not knowing who else would be on the team.
Looking at a number three hitter would change my answer. I would go with Mantle all the way.
Games played winner was Mays, with him you got an extra 5 games per year over the other two. Those 5 games could be the difference in winning the Pennant and going home. During these three players careers, there were no playoffs.
Total bases Mays wins again, averaging 360 per year, then Duke with 342 and Mickey with 320.
Walks, I am going to say Mantle LOSES with 120 per year to Willie's 74, and Duke in the middle with 90.
Slugging percentage is virtually tied here with Mantle at .619, Mays at .618 and Snider at .617.
Defensively Mays was the best, followed by Snider and then Mantle.
Home runs decided it for me. Not so much that Snider hit two more a year for the 5 year span, but he hit at least 40 in each and every season. Mantle and Mays each had a year under 30. Both also had years over 50 as well. I like being able to count on that consistent 40 per year.
Then I decided to look at the age of the players during their 5 year "peak" and thought Mays would be the best choice as he was 3 years younger than Snider and that theoretically gives him more years of productivity, but the OP didn't ask that.
If you are putting together a team and are looking for a number three guy, Mickey is my choice because of the walks and his speed.
If I had the knowledge that Willy would practically miss no games for the next 10 years, I would take him in a heartbeat.
But for 5 years only, nothing else considered,
Duke Snider.
Great answer Joe.
Dallas, what put Mantle over the top for you ?
Is it the Tenace factor, or OBP ?
Mantle because his baseball cards are worth the most.
I answered the question and put his finish in those categories (and not the statistical totals) because against every other player in the American League over those five seasons, Mickey was the leader in several categories that show a complete picture in my eyes; Mickey was the best in the AL (and in 1956, in all of baseball) at everything that matters at least once and often multiple times.
I agree with the sentiments expressed that there’s no bad choice here - but to me, Mantle’s season in 1956 is up for greatest individual offensive season* in the history of baseball and including it within the five year time frame will make it pretty tough to beat.
*Not hands down winner, mind you, but in the discussion.
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You all understand that 1951wheatiespremium will not be able to sleep until Mantle is declared the unanimous winner.
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Of the tree players Mantle's 1956 was the better for any single season, for that matter so was 1957. 1957 might have been even better than 1956. Sniders 1953 and 54 were awesome as well and Willie was superb in 54-55.
No offense intended, but big deal, that wasn't the question. He was a bit down in 1954 (still a great year) that has to factor in.
The question was a 5 year period. Duke had a great one, Mickey had a great one and Willie had a great TWO!
Secondly Ted Williams' 1941 was better imo and his 1957 at age THIRTYEIGHT was more impressive.
I'll certainly agree that after 1950 and excluding cheaters, that was one of the best years ever.
But that's a different discussion.
Joe-
What is a tree player ?
It’s Brooklynese - one, two, tree…
…which is probably why he picked the Duke. 😂
Or because no baseball player had more runs batted in in the 1950s; see? Raw stats can be useful.
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@JoeBanzai
First, I answered the question specifically and I think we posted our answers at the same time.
I gave a specific answer of Mantle 1956-60 and a lot of reasons why.
I typically don’t ‘knock the other guys’ as part of the argument. But succinctly put, I didn’t see a 5 year stretch for Mays or Snider that could match a five year span that contained 1956.
Should I look harder?
If you are giving Mays credit for two great 5 year chunks, four works too for Willie - the first 5, the second 5, etc. 😉
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watching this thread from afar. i'm not exactly young, but young enough never to see any of these players in action. thus, i deferred to my dad's empirical evidence. called him up and mentioned this discussion. before i could finish asking my question he said............."Mantle."
"both could do it all, but in their primes Mantle did it better. had he stayed healthy and taken care of himself, probably the best baseball player of all time."
I believe the OP just said you're starting a team; you can bat your player anywhere you want to, and without the artificial restriction that you have to bat your pick cleanup, yes, Mantle is a clear best choice.
Other than screwing Mays by not looking at his best five-year stretch, I didn't see a lot in your post that took into account how easy it was to hit HR in Brooklyn or any other park effects, which are extreme in comparing these three players. Snider was the third best hitter and the third best fielder of these three; you can pick either Mantle or Mays and it's nitpicking to say either choice is wrong. Picking Snider would be wrong.
I love Willie but I'm picking Mantle and hiring a 24 hour trainer and security
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I didn't bother to get that involved with the park factor stuff. It was a simple question. "Best 5 consecutive years".
I really didn't see much of a difference in any of the 3 (or 4) 5 year periods. I just looked at what they did.
Mentioning Mantle's increased value as a #3 hitter was a mistake. Should have kept it simple.
"Screwed" Willie Mays LOL.
I used Willies "best" 5 year period as far as I am concerned. 4 of the 5 years his OPS was over 1.000, 3 of the 5 years he slugged over .625 and he missed very few games.
I am assuming you like 61-65 better? More HR, but lower SLG and TB. He had quit stealing bases by then. He was a better player 54-58.
I also thought it was a good comparison for the fact that it happened at almost exactly the same time.
The numbers are so close it's really a tie, with Willie having the only real advantage; total bases.
Mantle had more walks. Walks bore me. I know you love them, I don't.
If, in fact it is a tie, (and I say it is) I'll pick the nicest person with the best nick name.
"Duke" Snider.
I would agree with the fact that Mantle had the most talent of any player ever. In his prime he was the best all around player ever. Mays was almost as good and played for a LOT longer
"IF" is the problem here, he was hurt too often and it shortened his career.
So your dad is right, Mantle was the best. never argue with your dad.
I wish I could call mine and ask him what he thinks. :,-(
Absolutely, use cool nicknames as a tiebreaker and pick the Say Hey Kid on that basis. But Snider isn't part of any tie with GOAT candidates like Mantle and Mays; not even close. And Mays' best 5-year stretch was 1962-1966, with 1961-1965 just a hair behind. If you ignore park factors you miss that, but if you ignore park factors you miss so much you might as well pick Hack Wilson as your CF.
Yes, I missed this post. I'll respond below.
Possibly the best thing he did on the field was score runs. I didn't look at it because it's dependent too much on other guys driving you in.
True again, but for the 5 year run I looked at, Snider hit the most, if you look at Mays' other 5 seasons he hit more than Mickey
I didn't consider RBI's either depends on other players being on base,
Are you ignoring the NL?
Same question as above.
AL again.
Same. A lot of your considerations are based on the AL, Mays and Snider played in the NL and were both great, so there was not as much of a "dominant" player as there was in the AL. I just am confused at why you are only looking at one league.
Great season no doubt, although I think 1957 was better or at least as good as. I'll just go back to the 5 year period part of the question, if you average out the 5 years those numbers get diminished.
I'm certainly not in any way "ripping" Mickey, just saying for those 5 years Duke was as good, as was Willie. That was really all Snider did for his entire career (sort of), with the exception of a great 1950.
Willie, however had more great seasons than Mickey.
But none as good as 1956!
Since I got the "worst" guy on my team in CF (LOL) I'll pick next, and take Right Fielder Stan Musial from 1948-52 ;-)
"Duke"
Not talking about the GOAT center fielder this time.
The park didn't hit the home runs.
Most of the time, I prefer to base my arguments on what guys did on the field rather than what they did on a spread sheet. Isolating player contributions ignores too much that goes into a team game - in any sport.
Baseball is not a simulation or a set of data; it is a sport played by 18 men on a field. Any attempt to isolate players will produce some useful data but at the same time it is data and not on field performance. Too many people act like advanced metrics are infallible when they are most certainly not.
Mickey against his AL peers is the best I could come up with; too me leading your league is about as strong a case as you can make as your being compared to group of people who faced the pitchers.
Perhaps that’s too simple but when I look at a players statistics (baseball-reference.com for a large battery of stats to play with), I like the black ink clusters. Too me, when you’re doing a whole bunch of stuff better than everyone else in your league, you’re the best baseball player:
All that bold black ink from 54-58 is insane. I imagine a slightly more talented Ronald Acuna gives a good visual idea of Willie back then.
Baseball is 9 guys, not one, and Willie, Mickey and Duke all played on pretty loaded teams so Park factors, BABIP, era adjustments and all that other jazz is fine but I think their work speaks just fine for itself.
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When you look at just the numbers for Mays, keep in mind the quote,
'If Mays played in Fulton county stadium, he'd have 800 homeruns'
Early Candlestick was a nightmare. The wind blew straight in from the Bay. Some night games, the fog was so thick..you couldn't see centerfield from the stands. Mini dustdevils would pick the wrapper trash from the stands and you'd have a trash tornado meandering across the field. Not occasionally, continuously.
If you just want to compare published stats, I'd bet the ranch that Mays was so far ahead of other players in the early to mid 60's that he was light years ahead. And he couldn't leave first base open by stealing second or stretching a single into a double because they'd just walk Stretch. Basically, no one ever saw what Mays could really have accomplished because of factors beyond his control.
All these things are true.
I am assuming that Detective Callahan might have been doing was to get a good debate started that was decided when Mays played so well for so long.
Fantastic comparison of three very different players who for (almost) the same 5 years were unbelievably good!
You "Made my day"!
It appears that in your analysis when one batter walks and the next player hits a HR, the second batter is getting credit for two runs and the first batter gets credit for nothing at all. This appears to be the second reason (after ignoring park factors) why you are reaching the wrong conclusion.
And note that runs and RBI are equally dependent on what "other guys" do. You can't score unless someone drives you in, and you can't drive someone in if they're not on base. Two sides of the same coin.
I've got Mays third on my all-time greatest hitters list.
Behind Ruth and Williams.
I totally agree with your first two, and in my mind there is no debate about it.
The hardest thing for me to do is come up with a number three.
I've got Barry Bonds at 4.
For me where it gets tough is #5. Gehrig or Cobb, and some other greats have to be considered.
I just now looked up Duke Snider on Wikipedia. In the Major League section it states that in 1963 he batted a slash line of .243/.345/.401 and in 1964 he batted a line of .201/.302/.323. What does that mean? It's new to me.
If you read my post, you would see that's exactly what I said.
Aufwiedertypen.