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Specimen 1794 Dollar cracked out at the ANA!

cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭
Just returned from the ANA in Pittsburgh, and while I can't comment on the "market," I can say it was a great show for the opportunities to see coins you almost never see.

1913 Nickels, the 1866 No Motto silver set, two different 1804 dollars, the Specimen 1794 Dollar, the Pacquet reverse Double Eagle...and that was just in the display area. Then, on the bourse floor, you could see the King of Siam Proof Set (yes, with a THIRD 1804 dollar), TDN's mind blowing Seated Dollar set, Jim McQuigan's awesome half-cent set, and several amazing superb gem coins from the 1790's. I was very pleased to have my set of early dollars on display amongst such company!

For me, though, the highlight of the show came on Friday late afternoon. I met with Brad Karolef, Charles Horning, Ken Bressett, John Dannreuther, Scott Travers, Tom Mulvaney, Steve Contursi, and a few others (talk about a heady group!), visited the PCGS security room, and watched as PCGS cracked open the slab of the Amon Carter Specimen 1794 dollar. PCGS also cracked the slabs of a few other comparison coins, including my AU58 1794 dollar (recent acquisition), my two-leaf silver plug dollar, and an 1803 proof dollar.

Next, we all moved to an adjacent room with proper lighting to examine the coins...raw. Slabs are great for protecting coins, but it was a very powerful experience to see those coins out of their captivity, and to actually HANDLE them. The objective of the event was to examine the edges of the coins, as well as to make precise measurements of their diameters.

I can tell you, as incredible as the Amon Carter 1794 dollar is when viewed through the slab, it is even more amazing when seen in the raw. The surfaces just come alive with blazing mirrored luster that can't be seen fully through the plastic. I was given the opportunity to hold the coin in my hands and examine it thoroughly. The edges of the coin are unbelievable...completely squared off, smooth and mirror-like themselves with no scrapes or scratches, and the edge lettering is incredibly deeply incused and sharp. When we examined the other coins, we realized that the squareness and smoothness of the edge of the Amon Carter dollar and the quality of its edge lettering was vastly superior to any of the others -- including the 1803 proof! All of us came away feeling the coin was even more special that we had originally thought.

Laura likes to call me a "coin weenie," and I guess I'm guilty as charged, but for this coin weenie, the 2004 ANA truly provided an event to remember!
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Comments

  • mrdqmrdq Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭
    I'm jealous

    --------T O M---------

    -------------------------
  • DAMDAM Posts: 2,410 ✭✭
    Wow!

    I'm green with envy. What a treat!



    Dan
  • StuartStuart Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cardinal: Great post!! Thanks very much for sharing your intimate VIP Flowing Hair Dollar ANA experience with us!! image

    Stuart

    Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal

    "Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I already started reading your book, cardinal! I could not put it down. I highly recommend it to others.

    This is NOT a short story book! Thanks for the nice note too. It meant a lot.

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • Sounds awesome. I would never handle the 1794 dollar. I could just see myself dropping it on the floor and ruining it.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570


    Sounds like a great event!
    image
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  • Neat! Did they re-slab them all?

    Cameron Kiefer
  • NumismanicNumismanic Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I could just see myself dropping it on the floor and ruining it. >>



    That would probably happen with me too after I drooled all over it! image
  • CoulportCoulport Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭
    That would be quite an experience.
    The most money I made are on coins I haven't sold.

    Got quoins?
  • EvilMCTEvilMCT Posts: 799 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the insight. I'm with Zulan tho, I'd hate to be known as the person who screwed up suck a beauty.

    Ken
    my knuckles, they bleed, on your front door
  • elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414
    Cardinal.....Gary C. and I were trying to find the 1794$ from the Heritage ANA Auction in your new book, without success?
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great post - what an experience. Hope you were able to snare some good pictures while the coins were available, including the edge details.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • With Tom Mulvaney there I bet they did get good picsimage

    Cameron Kiefer
  • I was given the opportunity to hold the coin in my hands


    Man, wouldn't that be a drag...."hey, man, don't blame me, you bumped me ......and nothing would have happed if you guys would have put carpet down....."

    Congrats though.....ah...nothing like a hallowed behind the scenes tour.......

    So, a 1794 dollar in AU58. Dag. I bet you keep pulling that out of your pocket.

    "Mr. Cardinal....would you please put that thing away and get back to work....better yet, give it to me and I'll put it in the drawer with the water pistols, the rubber masks and the whoopee cushions...."

    (and for those of you who don't know, in real life Mr. Cardinal doesn't have a boss...)

  • HalfsenseHalfsense Posts: 600 ✭✭✭
    In addition to the names already mentioned, several other people were present when the Neil/Carter/Contursi 1794 $1 was temporarily removed (twice) from its PCGS holder for close examination of the edge during the ANA convention: ANA Curator (and former Smithsonian staff member) Doug Mudd; Smithsonian staff member Jim Hughes; Numismatic News Editor David C. Harper; Coin World reporter Al Doyle; and a rather high ranking current official of the United States Mint (who must remain anonymous) saw it "raw."

    Raw or slabbed, it's really cool.

    -donn-
    "If it happens in numismatics, it's news to me....
  • That must have been some experience. Thanks for sharing.
    Bill

    image

    09/07/2006
  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Donn, thanks for filling in the names I missed! I must admit that the event itself was so unreal that I didn't catch everyone's name.

    Cameron, all of the coins were re-slabbed by PCGS later that day. While they were raw, Tom Mulvaney was able to take plenty of pictures, and I can hardly wait to see them. I must say, I learned a lot about coin photography just by watching the master at work!

    Oreville, I'm so glad that you like the book! The book was released in a limited first edition (of 100 copies only) at the ANA Show. Many, many (many) hours went into the preparation, and the short-run 4-color digital printing process was very costly, but I do think it came out pretty good for a self-published work. Even though the cost was really high ($125), most were sold at the show. Several remain for those who couldn't make it to the show.

    For those who didn't see it at the show, the book gives the background of the 1794 dollars, with descriptions and images of every individual specimen that I could positively identify. Here are a few samples:

    image

    image

    image

    image

    elwood, the 1794 dollar just appearing in Heritage's ANA sale appears in my book on page 137.

    Also, everyone was REALLY careful while handling the coin, and everyone was advised that it is best not to carry on a conversation while examining it -- not because a conversation could cause someone to lose concentration and drop it, but because by talking, someone might risk spitting on the coin. (Couldn't you just hear PCGS a few months from now..."Mr. Contursi, we're gonna have to downgrade that dollar...looks like people were just spitting all over it and now it's covered with black spots.") Actually, the coin was never raised more than a couple inches above a soft velvet pad, and later was transferred carefully back to PCGS for re-slabbing.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    everyone was advised that it is best not to carry on a conversation while examining it -- not because a conversation could cause someone to lose concentration and drop it, but because by talking, someone might risk spitting on the coin.

    But, how did everyone keep the drool off the coin? image
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Sounds like a fun experience. i bet that 1794 specimen takes a real nice picture raw.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,672 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Should have been one joker in that room with an old junky morgan to drop onto the concrete floor just to see how many people panic
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    <<<<<<<<Also, everyone was REALLY careful while handling the coin, and everyone was advised that it is best not to carry on a conversation while examining it -- not because a conversation could cause someone to lose concentration and drop it, but because by talking, someone might risk spitting on the coin. (Couldn't you just hear PCGS a few months from now..."Mr. Contursi, we're gonna have to downgrade that dollar...looks like people were just spitting all over it and now it's covered with black spots.") Actually, the coin was never raised more than a couple inches above a soft velvet pad, and later was transferred carefully back to PCGS for re-slabbing.>>>>>>>>>>>

    jUST A QUESTION: wouldn't have been more logical to supply everyone with a hospital mask to cover the mouth and nose. Shouldn't this be standard stuff nowadays?

    I am beginning to use the mask on raw coins worth more than $1!!!!!!!!!

    It is cheap insurance!!!
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • Great book!

    That certainly was a risky move having them cracked out and then reslabbed, especially after that pizza lunch! image
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PIZZA? I thought cardinal and Hall going crazy with their pepper shakers at the registry luncheon. I would have been VERY CONCERNED!

    How about some PCGS labled face masks? Could use blue cloth with the silver foil lettering/logo and just for old times sake use a green cloth face mask too with gold foil lettering/logo! image

    Ok ok , back to work for me. I must be bored!
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • Should have been one joker in that room with an old junky morgan to drop onto the concrete floor just to see how many people panic

    That is right up my alley! Which is probably why I'd never be invited to something like that. image
  • Awesome experience - thanks for sharing!

    I was about to post the same thing regarding the wearing of masks when I read
    Oreville's post. It just seems like common sense to me, and very cheap insurance.

    An inadvertant sneeze or cough from several feet away could easily cause
    damage that wouldn't show up until later, after reslabbing.

    Ken
  • Must have been real fun.
    Some people have all the luck.
    image
    image
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭
    Man, that would be any real collector's dream day!
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭
    Bump for a very cool thread.

    Russ, NCNE
  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭
    How did they crack it out? Do they bring their band saw to shows?
  • I am drooling just thinking about it!!!
    -George
    42/92
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is an OLD THREAD!

    I should have realized then that Cardinal had a huge fascination with the 1794 specimen silver dollar prior to selling his entire collection of early silver dollars 4-5 years ago which did not include this silver dollar!

    No wonder he finally bought it!
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    Who won the poker game that followed?
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was so hopeful to get to examine the coin out of the holder in preparation for the display at FUN and Long Beach. I will have to rely upon Cardinal's description and remain in awe of the opportunity...

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2016 11:21PM

    Great to see this thread. The description of the coin is riveting.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    reholder special

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ah, yes! That was over 12 years ago and I still remember that event vividly! The Specimen 1794 dollar had far better mirrored surfaces and cameo contrast than the 1803 Proof dollar that was also cracked out for the event (even though the "1803" Proof was most likely struck in the 1870's).

    Even though the lighting that time was arranged for best viewing, it paled in comparison to seeing the coin raw again at the 2009 ANA, when I was able to examine it in PCGS' TrueView camera room with the optimal lighting. Out of the holder, the Specimen 1794 dollar is a mind-blowing black-and-white deep cameo! Truly unbelievable! Sadly, Phil was not around to take any TrueView photos, so we were just left with the unforgettable images fixed in our minds.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Damn I'm jealous

  • HoledandCreativeHoledandCreative Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow!

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,869 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That would have been an exciting event just to be in the same room with it in it's "natural" state.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug...
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No gloves for the edges?

    Emergency crack!

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Great to see this thread. The description of the coin is riveting.

    And the "atmosphere" of 2004 is almost painfully nostalgic.
    Those were good times.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Amazing.... I missed this thread the first time around and the second.... life events....What an experience to actually hold those coins raw.... Cheers, RickO

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A couple more photos from 2004:

    This is the sole PCGS-AU58 1794 Dollar, from the Connecticut Historical Society:

    This is the Garrett-Flanagan-Cardinal specimen of the 1795 BB-11 flowing hair dollar, thought to be the first die variety of silver dollar struck after the 1794 dollars. This particular one displays a prominent silver plug at its center:

  • EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2016 1:53PM

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

    ANA LM

    USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cardinal do you have any pics of you holding the coin where you can clearly see the edge?

  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭

    Very cool.
    Even Anaconda was impressed back in the day.

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Cardinal do you have any pics of you holding the coin where you can clearly see the edge?

    I do not. There were a lot of photos taken during the 2004 ANA, mostly just to document the event. Tom Mulvaney took photos of the coin itself, and those were the only ones that specifically focused on the coin. No pictures were taken at all during the 2009 ANA when the coin was raw. (At that 2009 ANA, I got to see the coin cracked out, examined raw, and then re-holdered, all within the span of 15 minutes!)

    At the 2004 ANA, Tom Mulvaney did take one photo of the edge of the coin -- using the reflector from a flashlight to make the rims visible. None of the photos were digital photos, and so the resolution was less than optimal. This was the photo of the rim:

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very cool thread!

  • BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ah, memories

    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.

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