BUYING SLABBED COINS THAT ARE NOT PCGS.....
COINDOG
Posts: 402
How Many Times Have We Heard The Expression : "Buy The Coin, And Not The Holder " ?It Sounds Like Sage Advice, However The Part That You Will Never Hear Is: Sell The Coin, And Not The Holder" !!
The Fact Is PCGS Coins Sell For More Money !! So, My Personal Policy , When Offered A Coin In Another Holder Is:
Send The Coin In To PCGS, If It Comes Back The Same Grade, I
Will Pay The Asking Price, Plus, I Will Pay For The Grading.
If It Comes Back A Lower Grade, Then You Keep The Coin, And Pay For The Grading. So Far, I Have Not Had Any Takers !!!
This Is A Good Way To Protect Yourself From Overgraded Coins !!
Lastly, I Never Buy A Raw Coin Over $ 100.00.
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Interesting style - kinda like a combination of doop(s) and anti-atarian
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since 8/1/6
Cameron Kiefer
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There have been a number of very intelligently written threads in the last year re the difficulty of crossing NGC coins into PCGS holders at the same grade.
Just because a coin doesn't cross at the same grade does not necessarily mean that it is not as 'good' as a coin in that grade which happens to be in a PCGS holder. There can be a number of reasons which are not readily apparent to some people as to why some coins don't cross. It wasn't like this 5 or 6 years ago.
While some dealers may try to rip a PQ coin because it it in an NGC holder, believe me, it will bring what it is worth at a well attended auction.
Also, don't forget with the volume of coins that are graded, as long as people grade coins, mistakes will be made. Continuing, there's a degree of inconsistency in grading if for no other reason, graders change over time and their areas of expertise differ. Lastly, keep in mind that while some series of coins in the past may have been graded more strictly by PCGS, you cannot know for sure that at present, this sort of thing is continuing.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
OK, than that means you pay more for them. So "NGC coins" sell for less, meaning you pay less for them. So in retrospect it works out the same and is a wash to me. I truly believe it's that simple. Unless one is trying to get the discounted price of an "NGC coin" and expecting to get it in a pcgs holder for a nice profit. I believe this is the case in many instances.
As for expecting a dealer to sell you an "NGC coin" at that price, and expecting said dealer to cross it and only pay the grading fees
that IS funny. Dealer goes through all that than he wants the increased price.
BUT, I believe too many folks get wrapped up in the numbers game. Myself, I use it to determine value when purchasing these days, then I forget about the stupid number. Many on this board the numbers are important as they are.... either dealers, wanna-be dealers, or competing with numbers. Don't see too many real collectors around. Hey.... ENJOY those NUMBERS huh.
Just trying to make a point folks. I'm really not good at it though.
well, i guess that pretty much sums things up!! but hey, look at all the money you should be saving!!
al h.
The fact is that there are great coins in holders other than PCGS. I have some in my collection because I buy the coin, not the holder.
With your policy, we will never do business - you are basically buying plastic. I prefer to sell to people who know what they are buying.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
There are many many collectors and some dealers who practice the PCGS only thing because they in fact cannot grade accurately enough. And I would recommend this approach to anyone who cannot grade as it is a good safety net. However PCGS grades some real stinkers too and you'll see some of them on the auction circuit bringing around or UNDER blue sheet bid.
If I could snap my fingers and make all my nicer coins PCGS, I would. They do bring more money because of the reasons above. And they are more liquid too. But until that time happens, I'll have to limit myself to buying accurately graded NGC coins when they cross my path......PCGS ones too. I just reluctantly bought a lower end PCGS MS64 Trade Dollar for between CDN and blue sheet bid. I know if I sent it back 4 times, it would come 63 at least once or twice. If I sent it to NGC...same result. But I bought the coin in a PCGS holder knowing I can at least make $50 wholesaling this out to a local dealer. If this were an NGC MS64 I would have to lose money on it. Same coin. That's the story. And it's all about plastique.
roadrunner
If you think that buying only PCGS coins will insolate you from buying overgraded material, you are sadly mistaken. I've seen clunkers in both NGC and PCGS holders. Neither service hits it 100% of the time.
Hmmm? I wasn't able to read anything in Coindog's post that said he wanted any "discounted" price for the coin. He said he'd pay the asking price if it crossed. I have to agree with him. If someone wants PCGS price guide $ for a non-PCGS coin (which is generally moon-money), AND it's not a mistake, (graded ok..) then I too, would pose the same proposition to the dealer/seller/whoever...
<< <i>Hmmm? I wasn't able to read anything in Coindog's post that said he wanted any "discounted" price for the coin. He said he'd pay the asking price if it crossed. I have to agree with him. If someone wants PCGS price guide $ for a non-PCGS coin (which is generally moon-money), AND it's not a mistake, (graded ok..) then I too, would pose the same proposition to the dealer/seller/whoever... >>
One of the problems with this philosophy is that it shows people keep drinking the PCGS Kool-Aid. Even if there is a difference in grading, as others have said, it tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy because people cross plenty of properly graded NGC, ANACS and green-label PCI coins to PCGS plastic, and the "problems" (which PCGS has, too) are left. The result? A greatly exaggerated (even if real) perception that coins in PCGS plastic are more conservatively graded.
Even if the real difference might be (say) 0.2 grade points, the crossover game makes it closer to 0.5 or worse -- and between the crossover game and the registry game, if people insist on PCGS plastic and they can't (or won't) grade coins on their own, then they are likely overpaying for their coins. True, they're not likely to get horribly burned with severely overgraded coins, cleaned AUs in BU holders (hi poe58) and the like, but if they'd learn grading and looked at good pictures, they could buy similar quality coins for considerably less because they are in supposedly "inferior" NGC or ANACS plastic.
I understand why people aren't going to keep their coins in NGC or ANACS plastic if they're planning on selling and they are confident the coin will cross over with PCGS. But let's at least keep in mind why the perception is there and understand *why* the apparent difference in grading standards appears as large as it sometimes does (for some series, anyway).
Enjoy the hobby.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
<< <i>Sending already slabbed coins (especially in NGC or ANACS holders) off to PCGS to confirm what is already known (and assuming you can grade the coin yourself) seems redundant. The slab tells you nothing about the coin except for the grade. Nothing about luster, strike, type of toning or if its blast white, etc. If you know what you like, buy it, regardless of the holder. Buy the coin!!
Enjoy the hobby. >>
I would like to thank everyone for the responses, regardless of if we agreed or dis-agreed.
Almost everyone cinfirmed my statement, if they dis-agreed. I
can grade coins, and do so when buying. " Buy the coin and not the holder is very, very good advice.
The Problem Arises When You or I try to " sell the coin, and not the holder "
My personal policy is : " buy the coin, not the holder" , then cross it over into a psgs holder.
If we look at most of the larger dealers, (not the mom and pops operations) ana hardcore collectors, we find they want PCGS coins !!
Futhermore, when we see the same coins offered, in the same grade , the ad usually reads : Buy the PCGS coin for : $ 1650.00, and brand X holder for $ 1450.00 (same 2 graded coins in the same grade)
Look at ellesmere coins, heritage, goldberg, ect.
that might cross a coin as a courtesy. But to just ask any dealer on any purchase to cross it is asking a bit much IMO.
I would also assume there would need to be some risk on your part as well. This is just business.
<< <i>Not very good. What you are telling me by this statement is that you do not know how to grade for yourself. A lot of ANACS and NGC coins will cross easily to PCGS, but you need to know how to grade to pick them out. You can do quite well buying ANACS and NGC coins at a discount and getting them in PCGS holders. However, if you are looking for sellers to sell you at the discount price, then take the risk of sending to PCGS, you are way out of line. >>
I do grade coins myself. as a matter of fact, i crack out coins from other coins and send them in for re-grades very often.
The point i was trying to make is: Try selling a 1893-s morgan graded au-55 in a accugrade or pci holder, and then offer a 1893-s morgan to a daler or collector in a Pcgs holder, and see what knd of response that you get.
The dealer that offered me the 1893-s was at a show in charlotte, n.c. a few years back. i offered to pay his asking price, and pay for the grading. he of course declined, because he and i both knew that the coin was overgraded.
I told him if the coin came back a lower grade, he could pay for the grading and keep the coin.
If a dealer usually offers raw coins, or brand X holders, it"s pretty
easy to understand his " game plan "
If the coin would acheive the same grade in a PCGS holder, the dealer would send it in and make the extra money. the reason he or she doesn't is because they know that certain coin slabbing companies try to buy into the market by overgrading.
<< <i>I would also assume there would need to be some risk on your part as well. This is just business. >>
Bottom line is, any buyer who would want the seller to assume all the risks involved in guaranteeing crossover should be willing to pay a premium price for that protection. If they want to pay PCI money for a coin and expect the dealer to take it back if it doesn't crossover at that grade to PCGS, then they should pound sand. If they want that guarantee, they'd better -- at minimum -- be willing to pay the price the market would give for the same coin in a PCGS holder. And personally, I think they should be ready to pay *more* than that, given the risk they'd like to shift to the seller.
LMAO!
... with a little "sincerely michael" enthusiastic "stream of consciousness" added as a bonus!
and some "antidorkkarl" mania for PCGS plastic in there too.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>I would also assume there would need to be some risk on your part as well. This is just business. >>
Bottom line is, any buyer who would want the seller to assume all the risks involved in guaranteeing crossover should be willing to pay a premium price for that protection. If they want to pay PCI money for a coin and expect the dealer to take it back if it doesn't crossover at that grade to PCGS, then they should pound sand. If they want that guarantee, they'd better -- at minimum -- be willing to pay the price the market would give for the same coin in a PCGS holder. And personally, I think they should be ready to pay *more* than that, given the risk they'd like to shift to the seller. >>
Everyone eeps making my point for me, which is : PCGS coins sell for more money , also brand x is constantly trying to buy into the market by overgrading. oone dealer responded by sayingnthat he
does quite well buying anacs and ngc, then crossing them over to pcgs !
Remember, i am not asking for a discounted price on the coin, also if the person had any confidence that the coin was not overgraded, they would send it in because i will pay for the grading as well !!!
on average, in the sight-unseen and "retail" sight-seen marketplace, a PCGS graded coin will trade for more money than the equivalent coin graded coin (the same coin) by another company, which will in turn sell for more than the raw coin "claimed" as that grade by the seller.
but, and this is what makes it interesting... not always.
and "grade" and "price" are not always the same thing, if there is an eye appeal difference.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>The point i was trying to make is: >>
Why didn't you say this in the first place!
I don't have to do the same thing you do when viewing other slabs because I have a little confidence in my own grading skills!!!
I'm glad I have learned different now.
<< <i>
<< <i>The point i was trying to make is: >>
Why didn't you say this in the first place!
I don't have to do the same thing you do when viewing other slabs because I have a little confidence in my own grading skills!!! >>
I also have confidence in my grading skills !! kowever, just like you my skills have no value in the market place !!
most people prefer PCGS's, and ngc's opinion. , and prefer the grade that they assign, opposed to mine >
the fact of the matter is that most people are not qualified graders. it is necessary to look at thousands, and thousands of coins. read and ask questions, communicate with better qualified graders, ect.
Louis
These days really good coins trade for more than "ask" between dealers. Why fool with a guy who wants people to cross the coins for him had their expense when you can sell the coins to another dealer for more than he is willing to pay?
This is how collectors, who are unwilling to pay a fair price, end up on the sidelines with either nothing or inferior pieces.
<< <i>This is how collectors, who are unwilling to pay a fair price, end up on the sidelines with either nothing or inferior pieces. >>
<< <i>So Far, I Have Not Had Any Takers !!!
well, i guess that pretty much sums things up!! but hey, look at all the money you should be saving!!
al h.
a few years back there was an article in numismatic news that said" icg has not seen a coin that would not grade proof 69- deep cameo.
in addition, most washington quarters( 1932 to 1964 ) are available in ngc ms 67, but very few are graded by pcgs in the same grade. ( check out cameo cc )
Futhermore, the same is true for many other series including roosevelt dimes.
does anyone realize that less than 10 per cent of colectors realize a profit when they sell their collection( even more so when you account for inflation )
The collector that does realize a profit does not necessarily have deep pockets ( take john j. pittmanfor example ) but does have a good eye for quality, and knows a good deal when they see one.
I dont think that any collector should take a loss when they sell, however, most do because they have bought the coin, and not the book . sometimes this applies to the holder as well !!
<< <i>Yep,
These days really good coins trade for more than "ask" between dealers. Why fool with a guy who wants people to cross the coins for him had their expense when you can sell the coins to another dealer for more than he is willing to pay?
This is how collectors, who are unwilling to pay a fair price, end up on the sidelines with either nothing or inferior pieces. >>
As a matter of fact i have some of the top registry sets.
in addition, i an not asking to buy any coins at a discount. i am willing to pay premium prices. however, i expect premiun quality. that is why i have some of the better registry, and non registry sets.
for the better coins i usually use a buyer that is well qualified and respected. He buys pcgs coins, or other brand holders and crosses them over for me.
there is a reason that 90 per cent of all collectors do not make a profit, and take a loss when they sell., and you dont have to have deep pockets to get quality coins.
if everyone followed the policies of buy the book keep the best and leave the rest, and sometimes this applies to the holder as well. especially when it comes time to sell.
<< <i>As a matter of fact i have some of the top registry sets >>
And this would mean? Top numbers have nothing to do with top quality IMO.
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Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
<< <i>You need a hobby!
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expert and people don't always get to see the coins in person that you are selling, the plastic matters.
I had some great looking ANACS and NGC graded Walkers. When I upgraded and went to sell them I got sight unseen ANACS and NGC
money for them. Could I have done better finding the "right buyer". Sure, but they were $80 coins that just weren't worth crossing (even if
I could) and I was in a hurry and wanted to get rid of them on Ebay. Now next time maybe the won't only be $80 coins and maybe I won't
be in a hurry but liquidity will still matter.
Also for as much dealer bashing as I see on this board I can't believe no one is interested in recounting the many times they've heard a
dealer say "sure it's in XYZ plastic but it's would grade the same at PCGS." No one else?!?!?!??! It's just me and Coindog who have heard
this 20 times at every show we go to?!?!? Hmmm, mighty strange.
Pass the kool-aid,
-KHayse
Now don't misinterpret this to mean all those white NCS conserved coins or other NGC traps in holders. I just want the real coins, like the ones that bring 10-30% over bid at auctions. And KHayse, have you been smoking what Mr commem has? I hear the same banter at the shows that this NGC coin is solid for the grade, etc. And when 2 of us both agree, the coin sells for the same money as PCGS. But none of us is foolish enough to waste our money at a PCGS cross trying to beat a game that is rigged just like a circus carney.
Now KHayse, if you would like to pay my grading fees I'll be happy to send out 10 of my best NGC coins for crossing. We'll then crack all 10 coins and send them out again. I'll bet you $1000 that over 70% of the coins will grade the same or higher raw...and that less than 40% will cross. If you win, I'll eat all the grading fees too. Let me know if you're up to this. We can tweak the terms and conditions some. Point is that a far greater number will cross raw than in the holders. Thing is, I could use these coins in PCGS holders but I don't want to pay for the damn multiple grading fees. This would be a nice test to check the equality of the crossover game.
roadrunner
<< <i>You guys are sitting in your ivory towers picking apart Coindog but in the real world where everyone (especially your buyer) isn't an
expert and people don't always get to see the coins in person that you are selling, the plastic matters.
I had some great looking ANACS and NGC graded Walkers. When I upgraded and went to sell them I got sight unseen ANACS and NGC
money for them. Could I have done better finding the "right buyer". Sure, but they were $80 coins that just weren't worth crossing (even if
I could) and I was in a hurry and wanted to get rid of them on Ebay. Now next time maybe the won't only be $80 coins and maybe I won't
be in a hurry but liquidity will still matter.
Also for as much dealer bashing as I see on this board I can't believe no one is interested in recounting the many times they've heard a
dealer say "sure it's in XYZ plastic but it's would grade the same at PCGS." No one else?!?!?!??! It's just me and Coindog who have heard
this 20 times at every show we go to?!?!? Hmmm, mighty strange.
Pass the kool-aid,
-KHayse >>
The Same People Who Say The Plastic Doesn't Matter Are The Ones
Who Are Trying To Sell Brand x Slabs, Or Raw Coins !!
If They Really Want accugraded, or pci graded 1893-S morgans,
Then I Don't Think They Will Have Any Trouble Finding Them !!!
roadrunner
Expert Collector
Posts: 2900
Joined: Jan 2002
Sunday August 15, 2004 8:32 AM (NEW!)
I own about 85% NGC coins. It's just how I got started and in 1988 it really didn't matter who you went to. I also know that NGC's preferences to toned coins is more in line with my thoughts than PCGS. My personal track record with 3 attempts at crossing my very best coins is 1 out about 30. Makes you wonder if I have a clue as to how to grade seated coins? On the other hand, the dealers I sent those coins through for grading have offered handsome prices well above CDN bid.....hmmm....something stinks here. On the flip side, my batting average with sending back old holdered PCGS coins and getting UPGRADES on them at PCGS is near 100%. And I've NEVER had a cracked out NGC coin come back lower from PCGS, though some have been bagged for color, etc. Me thinks the whole system doth smelleth to high heaven.
There are many many collectors and some dealers who practice the PCGS only thing because they in fact cannot grade accurately enough. And I would recommend this approach to anyone who cannot grade as it is a good safety net. However PCGS grades some real stinkers too and you'll see some of them on the auction circuit bringing around or UNDER blue sheet bid.
If I could snap my fingers and make all my nicer coins PCGS, I would. They do bring more money because of the reasons above. And they are more liquid too. But until that time happens, I'll have to limit myself to buying accurately graded NGC coins when they cross my path......PCGS ones too. I just reluctantly bought a lower end PCGS MS64 Trade Dollar for between CDN and blue sheet bid. I know if I sent it back 4 times, it would come 63 at least once or twice. If I sent it to NGC...same result. But I bought the coin in a PCGS holder knowing I can at least make $50 wholesaling this out to a local dealer. If this were an NGC MS64 I would have to lose money on it. Same coin. That's the story. And it's all about plastique.
roadrunner
i only buy the coin not the holder
i might not be politically correct
and i am really not that coin smart
nor am i as astute as most all on these boards are with coins
but
the only thing that WORKS for me is
I ONLY BUY THE COIN NOT THE HOLDER
if look at a COIN that is in a holder and if it is what i call a michael coin and the price is fair to me then if i had the money i would buy this coin in the holder
michael
<< <i>Send The Coin In To PCGS, If It Comes Back The Same Grade, I Will Pay The Asking Price, Plus, I Will Pay For The Grading. >>
so do you pay more if it comes back higher?
oh duh, you probably don't think that can happen.
K S