Anyone into Buffalo nickels? What can you say regarding a full horn?

dan1ecu

For those of you who are Buffalo nickel collectors, when would you expect there to be a full horn - MS65? MS67? Not necessarily in any grade?

Do you think that the grading services should designate full horn examples as such?

Dan

prooflike

Don't give them any ideas

BillJones

I can't see how a coin could be so poorly struck that the horn is missing and yet get grades like MS-65 or 67. It is very possilbe to find a Mint State Buffalo without a full horn because the poor strike quality, but such a coin could never get high grades like that.

If they do start handing out high grades to poorly struck Buffalo Nickels, there will be a lot of New Orleans mint Morgan Dollars that will be in line for upgrades if the standards get watered down like that.

nickel

to often , I keep hearing - ' oh , that was a weak strike ' or 'cant find em with full horns , the dies were worn' Well , OK , but where are the coins from the early dies ? while there are weak strikes in many series , there must be strong strikes as well ?

centmaster

I think the grading services take the date of a coin into cosideration when grading it. For example, a lustrous but softly struck 1926S Buffalo might get a 64, while a 26P looking exactly the same would get a 62 or even an AU. They realize that 26S nickels simply weren't struck well, so they sometimes give the coin a break if it has everything else. On the other hand, they also penalize deserving coins of some issues if their liability would be too high. Early Lincoln cents would be a good example of that. A top notch 1926S Lincoln might get a 64RD (and you could try it 100 times), but an equivalent 36S or 46S or pretty much any other date after 1930 would get a 65RD all day long because there is no liability on their part if the coin turns in the holder since a 36S in 65RD is worth $5 and a 26S would be worth $150,000+.

Shamika

<< <i>to often, I keep hearing - 'oh, that was a weak strike ' or 'cant find em with full horns, the dies were worn' Well, OK, but where are the coins from the early dies? while there are weak strikes in many series, there must be strong strikes as well? >>



You're probably right. However, the branch mints were forced to reuse worn reverse dies during the 20's. The results are that some dates are rarely seen with full horns.

It's also surmised that the master dies were sometimes deficient resulting in brand new working dies lacking the capacity to produce full strikes.

Shamika

Dan,

To answer your question, I think a coin grading MS63 or above should always have a full horn though this isn't practiced by the TPG's.

Also, I'm not really crazy about designating FH (Full Horn). Somebody was doing it for a while (ACG?), buy it really isn't necessary.

100proof1957

off topic,should not mint state be exactly that !
if the coin is known for a soft strike should it affect the MS grade ?
i never thought so !
i have a 1941 S walker with a weak thumb,thats a known problem,coin is no doubt 65-66 yet it has come back 64 twice !

Proof

fcloud

I thought any coin without a full horn couldn't grade higher than Fine! <--<< that's a wink!

jdimmick

Lets take it down a few knotches into the circulated grades. I as anyone understand the grading of buffalo's with out regard to the horn being full or not. The TPG services are grading the coin based on the overall grade whether the strike is weak, not full, worn dies, etc. And I do agree in the higher MS grades, the various striking charactersitcis are taken into consideration for specific dates in a lot of cases as mentioned. But back to lower circ grades, you always see a great number of Vf and even xf buffalo nickels that look like fines or worse due to the above striking issues, yet the coin actually grades higher (grade on slab) because the actual amount of circulation the coin saw is not comparable to a fully struck coin that wears down to what a typical fine looks like.

This is where I have a problem with the pricing structure of insuffiently struck third party graded Buffalo nickles like the 21-s, 24-s and 26-s . IMO, the giant price increase's from fine to vf and then on to xf are thier becuase of the amount of detail that one expects to be visible even though the buffalo may grade higher such as Xf. If the coin doesnt have the detail that one would expect to see on a typical xf coin, then it should not be priced at that level. It should be discounted IMO, but usually they are not. If I am going to pay 400.00 for a PCGS VF buffalo nickel, then I want one that looks VF with a complete horn. I do not want to pay Vf money for a coin that looks fine that has incomplete details due to striking problems when I can buy a fine that looks similar detail wise for a 5th of the price.

jim

techeff

if the coin is known for a soft strike should it affect the MS grade ?

Exacto! The grading services aren't that savvy yet!! It could be the first coin struck "that" year without a mark on it. And with a weak strike (along with all the other subsequent coins), it wouldn't grade any better than 64/65...

BillJones

High "honor grades" like MS-65 and above are VERY MUCH tied to the quality of the strike of the strike and luster. Many New Orleans mint Morgan dollars were struck with missing hair detail about Ms. Liberty's ear and no breast feathers on the eagle on the reverse. Even if these coins have no marks, they have almost no chance of getting much over an MS-63 or so. And since the dies were not properly prepared (basining) from the beginning very few of those coins will get high grades. That's why you see the large price jumps for higher grade New Orleans coins.

Luster also plays a roll. I've seen pieces with very bright natural luster and noticeable marks get MS-66 grades. At the same time I've seen pieces with subdued luster and almost no marks, that is the result of the way the coins were made, not cleaning, get MS-63 and 64 grades. I don't totally agree with this. To me one should have to look darn hard to find a mark on an MS-66 coin, but the services don't seem to see it that way.

Just in the way of history, in the early 1920s much of the Philadelphia mint's die making time and resources were devoted to the new Peace Dollar. As a result the branch mints were short changed. They were forced to use dies well beyond their normal life. This resulted in some collector treasures, like the 1922 Plain cents, and coins collectors love to hate like the poorly struck Buffalo nickels from the 1920s.

LanLord

<< <i>I think the grading services take the date of a coin into cosideration when grading it. For example, a lustrous but softly struck 1926S Buffalo might get a 64, while a 26P looking exactly the same would get a 62 or even an AU. They realize that 26S nickels simply weren't struck well, so they sometimes give the coin a break if it has everything else. On the other hand, they also penalize deserving coins of some issues if their liability would be too high. Early Lincoln cents would be a good example of that. A top notch 1926S Lincoln might get a 64RD (and you could try it 100 times), but an equivalent 36S or 46S or pretty much any other date after 1930 would get a 65RD all day long because there is no liability on their part if the coin turns in the holder since a 36S in 65RD is worth $5 and a 26S would be worth $150,000+. >>


While this is probably true, I strongly disagree with the practice. I think a coin, all coins in a series, should be comparible, not based on strike characteristics by date, but by characteristics by series. If a coin has a particular set of dignostics, it should be a grade of X, not X +3 points because those were weak strike dates. That is just foolishness and I think it needs to be done away with. If no coins in a particular date/mm range can grade over MS63 or what ever, because of weak strikes, then so be it, no coins get higher grades. They just don't get any better.

That's my 2 cents worth, and I'm sticking to it.

Shamika

<< <i>If no coins in a particular date/mm range can grade over MS63 or what ever, because of weak strikes, then so be it, no coins get higher grades. >>



Right on brother!

Elcontador

Re J Dimmick's comment on the 24 S Buff. People in the know will not pay VF prices for a coin graded such if it does not have a full horn. If you want to buy one of these with a full horn, look at a lot of coins. What really struck me about this was that I saw one slabbed XF in a green label PCGS holder that would be VF if it was struck in the 1930s. For this date, I think what I saw was more typical than not.

Libertad

Nooo! Don't change it now, it took me too long to learn it the way it's done!
I still have to check Lange's book for guidance at times.

There is a difference between poorly struck or weak strikes, and fully struck with
worn reverse dies however. And it takes some time and dues to overcome that
particular anomaly.
Some years the branch mints just didn't get fresh dies, or only a few when
more were needed and started out with last years' dies for the reverse and new
ones for the obverse, so there may have been only a couple of decent die pairs
working at the branch that year, if any.

3Legs

<< <i>Don't give them any ideas >>