Detecting and dealing with PVC - An example
K6AZ
Posts: 9,295 ✭
As many of you know, PVC is one of the biggest dangers to your investment in coins. A lot of people seem to be confused about what it is, and how to deal with it. I hope this thread and the images help to explain it, especially for those of you new to coins.
The older, soft flips have a softening compound in them. Over time, the flips break down and react with the surface on the coin to create PVC residue. PVC residue will start out as a light, almost colorless haze on the surface of the coin, easily spotted when the coin is viewed under a good light source at an angle. At this stage, removing it is quite easy with a quick dip in pure acetone.
In the next stage of PVC contamination, the haze will deepen and turn very light green, usually in circular spots. At this stage, it can still be removed with acetone, though it may take several dips in fresh acetone over several hours to break up and remove.
The third stage is where the PVC starts to damage your coin. On silver coins, a dark green will appear in the center of the light green spots. This is where the PVC has interacted with the surface of the coin, and the coin's surface is now damaged. At this point the PVC can be removed, but you will find pits where the dark green spots were. The coin is now corroded.
Here is an example of a Morgan Dollar at the very beginning of stage 2 of PVC contamination. On the obverse, the haze has deepened, and circular light green spots have formed around the date, which are the most obvious, but also around the stars and E PLURIBUS UNUM. There are no circular spots on the reverse yet, though the haze has deepened.
This coin is still soaking in acetone. There are a few stubborn spots on it, but they are breaking up. As soon as it is done, I will post the after picture.
After:
The older, soft flips have a softening compound in them. Over time, the flips break down and react with the surface on the coin to create PVC residue. PVC residue will start out as a light, almost colorless haze on the surface of the coin, easily spotted when the coin is viewed under a good light source at an angle. At this stage, removing it is quite easy with a quick dip in pure acetone.
In the next stage of PVC contamination, the haze will deepen and turn very light green, usually in circular spots. At this stage, it can still be removed with acetone, though it may take several dips in fresh acetone over several hours to break up and remove.
The third stage is where the PVC starts to damage your coin. On silver coins, a dark green will appear in the center of the light green spots. This is where the PVC has interacted with the surface of the coin, and the coin's surface is now damaged. At this point the PVC can be removed, but you will find pits where the dark green spots were. The coin is now corroded.
Here is an example of a Morgan Dollar at the very beginning of stage 2 of PVC contamination. On the obverse, the haze has deepened, and circular light green spots have formed around the date, which are the most obvious, but also around the stars and E PLURIBUS UNUM. There are no circular spots on the reverse yet, though the haze has deepened.
This coin is still soaking in acetone. There are a few stubborn spots on it, but they are breaking up. As soon as it is done, I will post the after picture.
After:
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Comments
I'm happy to report that the coin is finished soaking, and all the PVC residue came off, and there is no damage to the coin's surface. This was caught in time.
This coin was sent to me by another board member who had it come back from PCGS in a bodybag for PVC. It should grade now.
How long did it soak?
I never thought about soaking a coin in acetone for a long period of time, I would always just dip them.
<< <i>How long did it soak? >>
I soaked it four separate times, each with fresh 100% acetone. I'd say the total time would be in the neighborhood of 18 hours. When PVC gets to this stage, it does take a bit more to get it off.
I'll bet NCS is shaking in their boots now
<< <i>I can't believe the coin industry still produces and sells those polyvinil flips.
I have too. There still are some uses for those flips, as temporary holders. But collectors should know that when they buy a coin and it arrives in a soft flip, they need to put it in a safe holder. Too many collectors just leave the coins in these flips.
<< <i>I never thought about soaking a coin in acetone for a long period of time, I would always just dip them. >>
I only dip coins in thiroeau based dip as a last result. If this coin had gone much longer that would have probably been necessary.
K6AZ
I recently sent a Blue Ike to PCGS for grading.
They body bagged it claiming PVC.
I was hoping for at least MS68 on this coin.
When I sent it to them it was still in the orginal
sealed cellophane from the mint.
Is it possible in had PVC on it from the mint?
I asked PCGS this question with no answer.
I called them and explained the situation and
sent it back to them to have them look at it again
with the same result.
I was appreciate your opinion.
Thanks........Michael
It's a shame what we have done to some of our coins by using soft flips.
It seems like once you can see any green and remove it there is already some damage to the luster.
I know the pvc must be removed but some coins don't improve and might even look worse after the process.
Just my thoughts
K6AZ
Unfortunately no.
After sending it to PCGS twice and discussing it with them
I just gave up and sold it.
This was an awesome coin and near perfect. It was at
least a one in a 1000 coin.
Using a 10x loupe, I could NOT see any PVC, haze,
discoloring or anything on this coin.
They must have been using a damn electron microscope to grade it.
I have had many of these coins graded MS68 that were not as nice.
Needless to say, I was very disappointed and haven't sent in any
blue Ikes since.
Michael
glass i assume ?
Proof
This was an very informative post. Thank you.
I soak/dip almost every coin I submit into acetone before it heads off to be graded. No sense in taking a chance that there is some traces of pvc on the coin.
I've seen coins in Whitman albums show signs of pvc because they were in the same container as other coins stored in those soft flips. It can ruin a collection, and quite quickly if the conditions are optimal.
Soft flips are sort of a necessity. Auction companies and dealers almost have to use them to showcase coins at lot viewing, as they can handle the repeated movements of potential buyers moving the flips back and forth.
Good thread!
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
<< <i>Thanks great info.......Will acetone help remove spots or haze on proof coins? >>
Only if the haze is PVC or some other petroleum based contaminant. Proof coins are very tricky, and should only be worked on by experienced numismatists.
Chris
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Herb
BTW the 21-S arrived today... going to my registry set
Herb
I would like to thank you for removing the PVC off my coin. You did an awesome job. The information you provided is very helpful. I don't have any other coins in my collection that have PVC on them, now that I go back and look, and that is probably why I didn't catch it. I will know from now on though. -Thanks
Also, I will be resubmitting this coin back to PCGS and posting the results of that submission here on the boards.
History of this coin, from the time I bought it 'til now. I bougth this coin at the Coin Store in the New Olreans Mint while my wife and I were on our 1st Anniversary. I live about 200 miles from New Olreans so It was not too long of a trip and I had to go see the old N.O. Mint before we left. The coin was a nice brilliant white with very very few bag marks. It had slight yellow toning on the reeded edge of the rims which I assumed was from a paper roll it was stored in before ending up at the N.O. Mint. The coin had no toning on it other than that. Now Louisiana is a very humid place, especially in the summertime when it rains damn near every afternoon. I don't know if humidity speeds up the PVC process but the appearance of the coin changed from brilliant and frosty with lots of luster to kind of a hazy dull look in about 9 months. The coin was stored in a hard-plastic flip which I bought it in from the Mint Coin Store. I just thought that the humidity was causing a reaction with the silver and causing it to haze somewhat and never really noticed any green goo that I have heard to look out for with PVC. I didn't know it made a haze on the coin. Thanks to Eric, I do now! I sent it in for PCGS to grade w/my free submissions and BAM! PVC. Eric took the coin and fixed her up and now she looks better than ever. -Thats the history of the coin.
Thanks again, Eric for making this thread very informative and getting the PVC off my coin all in the same shot. I am very impressed. I will resubmit this coin to PCGS and post the result on this forum.
-BK.
This will grade at least 64, and I think it has a very good shot at 65. Good luck!
Learned so much about PVC and thought I already know alot.
Now if only Icould recognize it BEFORE it gets really nasty.
I've learned something, thank you.
Russ, NCNE
thanks again
<< <i>Do the plastic zip loc baggies contain PVC? >>
Most don't because they are designed for food.
Are there specific brand names of flips to avoid and conversely, brands that can be trusted?
Are all flips labeled "PVC free" truly safe?
Are the thin films of "cellophane" within cardboard holders PVC-free?
Can the cardboard material in albums harm a coin in any way over time?
As for acetone:
Can it remove oil associated with skin (slip-ups while handling).
Is there any reason not to soak every raw MS coin as a safeguard against someone who may have touched the fields, breathed on the coin, etc.?
Aerospace Structures Engineer
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As far as copper goes, I can't be of much help there, my experience has been with silver coins only. I do know the procedures are different for copper, so perhaps someone really knowledgable in that area can explain.
From my experience, when it's gelled like this it doesn't adhere to surface that well and it's pretty easy to remove with acetone.
(The color change is from a change in lighting)
I think, though, when it gets beyond this stage and starts getting dry and crusty, that's when it will start doing damage to coin's surface. I've been lucky and haven't had any permanently damaged from the stuff.