Absolutely NOT an ethical question!

MrEureka

I'm going to start doing a lot more in the way of "collector sales" and need some honest feedback. Your answers will help me select my inventory.

Here's the question:

If a dealer offers SOME coins that you think are terrible LONG TERM value, will that diminish your impression of that dealer? Some examples might be superbly toned MS-63 common date Morgans at $1000, PR-70 just about anything, common date Oregons at 80K or anything else that YOU think is ridiculously valued by THE MARKET. Again, I'm NOT trying to bash the aforementioned coins. They're just examples of coins that SOME people think are bad value.

Again, this is not an ethical question. I'm NOT suggesting that the ad states that these coins are a good investment. I'm NOT suggesting that the coins aren't worth the money TODAY. I'm NOT suggesting that the dealer has done anything but offer coins at current prices to people that might WANT to buy them.

The question is simply whether you think a "good" dealer should exercise more discretion and avoid selling coins that he thinks are likely to hurt his customers in the long run.

XpipedreamR

I think that if you fully disclose your honest assessment of a coin and its potential, you can sell anything the customer wants to buy.

cosmicdebris

<< <i>common date Oregons at 80K >>

BigE

If I were a coin dealer I would only sell things that didn't bother ME. If you do not have confidence in the value of what you are selling you probably won't do well at it anyway-----------------BigE

MrEureka

I think that if you fully disclose your honest assessment of a coin and its potential, you can sell anything the customer wants to buy.

What am I supposed to do, advertise a coin for 10K and say in the ad "Likely to be worth 2K or less within 3 years"? Better to not ever offer it.

mrearlygold

Andy, couple questions, when you say "offer", do you mean an ad which lists said coins for sale, an email or telephone call specifically recommending these coins, a follow up on a want list?

You mentioned "the ad", and offer so I'm trying to get more from you before commiting.

Rgrds
TP

JrGMan2004

I just hate going and looking at a dealer's inventory, particularly internet sites, and see nothing at all in my price range, dealers who only cater to the people who use $100 bills for toilet paper...

Otherwise, I agree with Dogbreath...

Barry

When I look at a dealer's listings, I only look at what I collect. The other stuff doesn't matter to me, unless it's bottom-feeder slabs, of course.

goose3

sell whatever permits you to sleep at night.

MrEureka

Andy, couple questions, when you say "offer", do you mean an ad which lists said coins for sale, an email or telephone call specifically recommending these coins, a follow up on a want list?

Tom - I meant that the coin would be listed in the ad, on the web site, etc. Obviously I wouldn't recommend the coin to anybody as an investment, but I'd have no hesitation to offer it directly to a buyer if if I knew that the coin was what he was looking for.

astrorat

Andy-

That is a difficult question to answer as I have never seen the inventory of a "good" dealer that did not have some coins that I thought were poor values (depsite my opinion being the in minority).

Dealers are dealers, they stock what sells. I can't fault them for that.

Lane

MrEureka

sell whatever permits you to sleep at night.

Goose - I can sleep fine selling people what they want, even when I think the market's too high. But THAT was not my question. I want to know if I am hurting my business by offering coins that many will see as bad long term value.

mrearlygold

<< <i>Andy, couple questions, when you say "offer", do you mean an ad which lists said coins for sale, an email or telephone call specifically recommending these coins, a follow up on a want list?

Tom - I meant that the coin would be listed in the ad, on the web site, etc. Obviously I wouldn't recommend the coin to anybody as an investment, but I'd have no hesitation to offer it directly to a buyer if if I knew that the coin was what he was looking for. >>




Andy ,

Ok understood and agree on the investment part. I would also not hesitate to offer the coin to the buyer if that's what I knew he's looking for. And I would certainly add my opinion with regards to value if I thought the customer needed or wanted that opinion.

TP

MrEureka

Ok understood and agree on the investment part. I would also not hesitate to offer the coin to the buyer if that's what I knew he's looking for. And I would certainly add my opinion with regards to value if I thought the customer needed or wanted that opinion.

Tom - Of course. We are agreed. But that still doesn't answer my question: Should I advertise the coin?

XpipedreamR

I've rethought this a little bit...

The people willing to pay exorbitant prices for a coin may want it coin for other reasons than its possible future value. I have grossly overpaid for coins, fully aware that I most likely would not easily be able to recoup what I had spent on them. But I didn't care because I wasn't interested in their resale potential...they were keepers. And I think that's perfectly acceptable, buying in an auction setting.

If I understand your question, you are considering selling more in a traditional dealer scenario. In that case, I think it would be a little awkward to sell these types of coins that you are referring to, at market prices, given your view of the coin's future. I think it could definitely lead to some bad customer feelings-full disclosure or not. I have sort-of been in this situation as well, and have not bought from the dealer since.

JohnZ

I worked in retail for many years, and always had a very difficult time selling merhandise that I knew was junk. I'm not suggesting that any of those aforementioned coins are junk, but I am saying that it's probably an issue of individual conscience. I knew salespeople who had no problems with it.

Baley

If a site or ad is offering coins I am interested in buying (such as lightly to moderately circulated 150-210 year old US type coins) at fair prices, then no, I wouldn't hold it against them if they also offered coins I am not interested in (such as, for example, ultra high grade coins minted less than 40 year ago, or "monster" priced toners of any sort)

prooflike

Do whatever it takes to make a buck, no conscious, no guilt.

This is most likely the mentality of a Fortune 500 CEO.

I couldn't do it.

mgoodm3

As long as you sell quality coins at market reasonable prices, you'll be fine. What you consider a bad value may be considered good value to the buyer of "superbly toned MS-63 common date Morgans." Depends on your point of view. Stick to good solid collector coins not to fads.

BAJJERFAN

The question is simply whether you think a "good" dealer should exercise more discretion and avoid selling coins that he thinks are likely to hurt his customers in the long run.


Not necessarily, but I think the wise dealer would NOT want to try to "sell" a good customer something that HE KNOWS is not right for him. OTOH if a customer walks in and says I want to "buy" that coin then I have no problem with the dealer selling the coin to him.

mrearlygold

<< <i>Ok understood and agree on the investment part. I would also not hesitate to offer the coin to the buyer if that's what I knew he's looking for. And I would certainly add my opinion with regards to value if I thought the customer needed or wanted that opinion.

Tom - Of course. We are agreed. But that still doesn't answer my question: Should I advertise the coin? >>




Andy, Yes. And I would go so far as to write a detailed desciption of the coin as well.

Case in point is that 18/17-S SLQ. I would have advertised the coin for what the holder said it was as well as what I think it is( was) ( gradewise)

Many times I will even add "in my opinion, this one is XXX amount high" and make the case pro and con if the customer wants the input. But in the ad, it would list the coin, plastic companies opinion, my own description and price.


TP

MrEureka

I wouldn't hold it against them if they also offered coins I am not interested in

Baley - You know too much to be scared away. Others might not. For example, a newbie might look for clues as to whether a dealer would be a good source. One of those clues might be that the dealer was selling PR-70 slabs. Another might be that he was selling third-tier slabs. The newbie might run from the dealer before realizing that he is also a great source for "real coins", whatever that means.

roadrunner

Andy, I've always felt that if a dealer looked out for his customer first, and himself 2nd, the hobby would beat a path to his door.
I certainly believe that the more "burials" that a dealer offers, the more credibility he loses. After seeing a number of coins advertised as such, I am far less likely to do business with such a dealer when I have to rely on their judgement to any extent. So the answer to your question is a resounding yes. Job #1 is to help your clients.
Make them get rich, or do well, and everything else should take care of itself. This is a mindsight lacking in today's and yesterday's hobby.

It's one thing selling burials (and this includes non-performers) to other dealers. They are pros and "should" know what they are doing. But I can't see purposely dumping overrated swill or non-performers on retail or investment clients. The job of the dealer is to negotiate the mine field for them, not toss out the mines! Find your client true value.

roadrunner

mrearlygold

Brian, agreed.

By the way, I just read the barons article. We think alike.

Rgrds
TP

EvilMCT

I buy from reputable dealers who have, imho, overpriced junk for sell. I have no problem with it tho. If you happen to have the coin I'm looking for, I could care less what else you are selling. As long as you are not selling junk as "PQ blah blah blah . . ." I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

Ken

UncleJoe

Here's the question: If a dealer offers SOME coins that you think are terrible LONG TERM value, will that diminish your impression of that dealer?

NO.

I would suggest that for every item that a dealer can sell, there is someone who thinks it is a terrible LONG TERM value (as well as those who think the opposite).

My criteria is: as long as if asked, you give your honest opinion (NO HYPE) then you are servicing your customer. Note that this does not require you to give your opinion upfront, only if asked. Because there are many collectors who may not want your opinion and you don't know their motives for buying, which may have nothing to do with your opinion.

Joe.

stman

Heh, first you will need to get the little stickers saying..." Rainbow, Monster, PQ+++, POP 1 (for today), investment grade, and also... one of the best I've seen." I'm sure you know the drill.

MrEureka

The job of the dealer is to negotiate the mine field for them

Brian - If I subscribed to that theory, I'd be selling the most accurately graded and most reasonably priced (fill in the name of your favorite trap coin) I could find. Or are you suggesting that I should refuse to handle the stuff because I know what's best for my clients? (Which, BTW, I do. )

BAJJERFAN

<<"I buy from reputable dealers who have, imho, overpriced junk for sell. I have no problem with it tho. If you happen to have the coin I'm looking for, I could care less what else you are selling. As long as you are not selling junk as "PQ blah blah blah . . ." I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.">>

He is talking about a selling situation wherein the dealer "convinces" the customer to buy something as opposed to that situation where the dealer makes "no" effort to sell the coin and a customer simply buys it.

MrEureka

My criteria is: as long as if asked, you give your honest opinion (NO HYPE) then you are servicing your customer.

UncleJoe - Would you be so understanding if my site was loaded with third tier slabs at triple bid? Of course I'd tell my customer that the coins were bad deals if they asked...

MrEureka

He is talking about a selling situation wherein the dealer "convinces" the customer to buy something as opposed to that situation where the dealer makes "no" effort to sell the coin and a customer simply buys it.

BAJJERFAN - Not true.

BAJJERFAN

Maybe so. I don't care what a dealer has for sale in his case, but if he tries to hard sell me something that he knows is NOT right for me he has lost me forever.

UncleJoe

UncleJoe - Would you be so understanding if my site was loaded with third tier slabs at triple bid? Of course I'd tell my customer that the coins were bad deals if they asked...

You are answering your own question. If YOU have a problem with it, DON'T do it. Simple as that.

I don't care if you load your website with third tier slabs at triple bid. The market will probably see that you keep those items in inventory for a long time. If however you hype and give false impressions about the value or the collectibilty of same (this assumes that you don't agree with the hype or that third tier slabs are very collectible), then I object.

Joe.

jimtre

Hmmm! I guess my question to you is: How do you happen to have this high priced soon to be lower priced (you think) in stock? If you thought it was not a good buy, I don't see how you would have it, unless you payed a low price (marketwise) for it. To then offer it at the (you think) high price would seem to be on the unethical side. Of course if you offered it priced accordingly to where you bought it I would not consider it unethical.

Supply and Demand seems to fit in here somewhere.

Jim

RYK

Andy,

I understand your question and why you ask it. I think the fact that you ask it all means that you will do the right thing (whatever it is).

There is a big difference between making "a sale" and developing a long-term selling relationship with a client. The best coin dealers (and salespersons of goods of all kinds) know how to develop the relationship such that any individual sale is never an issue.

DHeath

If a dealer offers SOME coins that you think are terrible LONG TERM value, will that diminish your impression of that dealer?

Yes. If I believe the dealer is a headhunter hoping to bury the unsuspecting, I may buy something I really need from him, but he won't be on my favorites list. If you promote material you really believe is going to bury your buyer whether it's overgraded third-tier slabs, fad coins, or this year's mint products, I'll believe you a dealer I should cherrypick in my specialty and ignore in ANY area I'm not VERY comfortable with. Hey, it doesn't mean we can't do business. It just means I won't trust your opinion.

Coinosaurus

I'm with Ken. If you have what I like, I don't really care what you are doing with the rest of your inventory as long as you are not overhyping or misrepresenting it.

ddink

<<
Do whatever it takes to make a buck, no conscious, no guilt.

This is most likely the mentality of a Fortune 500 CEO.

I couldn't do it.
>>

So if your customers want a certain coin, you shouldn't sell it to them just because you *think* it might be worth less down the road? Now if you are hyping a coin you don't believe in, that's different. But stocking high-demand coins that you personally think will be less in the future is certainly not a problem. Just do what most coin dealers *don't* do: describe the coin itself, not the market for the coin.

No Andy, if I go to a dealer's store and see coins that I don't personally like, I don't hold it against them. Although if I see more than a few third-tier slabs, then I do.

roadrunner

This issue is more related to newbies and the inexperienced. If someone wants something that badly, they should get it. But I don't have to be the one to service them.

The market is relatively cyclical. It is not that much of a stretch to have a "feel" for what coins will be blue chips or burials down the road. Of course the average dealer cannot predict the next fad in coin collecting. But they can certainly identify which areas are purely speculative and which have long track records of being collectible.

This topic is certainly ethical as well as controversial. 95% of collectors are at a great disadvantage from the dealer. I think that essentially qualifies them for ethical treatment. But then why should we expect a different level of performance in the coin industry when stock brokers themselves take advantage of those same 95%?

roadrunner

Mark

Andy:

I concur with the opinion that no one can forecast the future accurately enough to determine whether a coin is a great investment or a long-term burial. So therefore I do not judge a dealer by whether I, personally, think a coin is over-priced.

Here's what I do judge a dealer's advertisement and hence the dealer by:
1) Is the ad populated with third world slabs? Big negative.
2) Is the ad touting the investment potential of the coins offered for sale? Small negative to neutral.
3) Does the ad adequately describe the coins, eg, blast white or magnificantly toned? Positive.
4) Does the ad go overboard in describing the coin's qualities, eg, PQ+++, Monster? Small to large negative, depending on the extent.
5) Does the ad give a bit of the history of some (or all) of the coins? Big positive
6) Does the ad list the coins so that there are "too many" coins listed for the page? Negative.
7) Does the ad list the coins with some white space between the coins in order to to make it seem like the dealer is thoughtful about what is listed? Positive
8) Does the ad give details about payment, returns, web site, etc? Weak positve if present, big negative if absent.

Andy, I hope this list helps.

Mark

oreville

MrEureka: I believe that it is in the best interest of BOTH the dealer to stock some overvalued coins and for the collector to observe and indeed sometimes buy the overvalued inventory.

Back in the old days of the late 1960's the 1950-D nickels along with the 1938-D walkers were all the rage due to their low mintages. The 1968-S and 1969-S proof sets were also all the rage since S mint coins had not been released from the US Mint since 1955.

We all may have known, should have known they were all poor investments and overvalued at the time. But did that stop us from buying them??? No way. They were fun purchases and they were NEEDED to complete the proof set run, the nickel date/mm run, etc.

Furthermore, if the collector never sees the overvalued inventory, never gets exposed to overvalued inventory, never contemplates or actually buy some overvalued inventory then the collector may never learn from his mistakes.

In this vein, I have learned much from my mistakes. I also learned never to buy a 1932-D quarter without certification as I was once mortified to examine a 1932-D quarter and suddenly notice the D mint mark fell off the coin onto the floor while holding such coin. Had I never been exposed to these things, I would never have learned in the manner I did.

roadrunner

Andy, you mentioned some of the things you would not put your client's money into...so what are some of the things you would happily suggest? Inquiring minds want to know!

roadrunner

oreville

Speaking of which 1932-D and 1932-S quarters in nearly any condition were the among the worst performing and overvalued coins in the entire coin market from the late 1970's to the late 1990's!!!

cladking

I'd like to say it doesn't matter but most people really do react negatively to seeing
coins for sale which they hate or feel are greatly overpriced. It doesn't matter to me
but as DHeath said such a dealer wouldn't be among my favorites.

One thing is certain though, if you have an extensive inventory of coins that might be
slammed by the market at some point then there's a good chance you'll get slammed
from time to time. This would seem to be the opposite of the best way to gain increases
in collection or inventory appreciation.

MrEureka

I have learned much from my mistakes. I also learned never to buy a 1932-D quarter without certification as I was once mortified to examine a 1932-D quarter and suddenly notice the D mint mark fell off the coin onto the floor while holding such coin. Had I never been exposed to these things, I would never have learned in the manner I did.

Oreville - I agree, of course. However, that doesn't mean that it's good business for me to have you remember me as the one from whom you purchased your education.

MrEureka

Andy, you mentioned some of the things you would not put your client's money into...so what are some of the things you would happily suggest? Inquiring minds want to know!

Brian - Subject to quality control and given a "fair market" price? I'd recommend MOST coins! (How's that for a non-answer? )

Trime

Andy,
From my viewpoint , you would harm your long term business. I would remember the dealer that I sold me an overvalued coin. Apparently not everybody shares my viewpoint.

MS68

Andy- Be careful of that next step. I hear the ice cracking under your weight.

MrEureka

Be careful of that next step. I hear the ice cracking under your weight.

Uh oh. Somebody woke Dave.

FatMan

Andy, I am quite sure that you already know that as a dealer..."You are what you sell". You sell quality, you will be perceived as a quality dealer. You sell at fair prices, you will be perceived as fair. Sell crap, you will be perceived as a piece of crap. Regarding opinions about future values, those and a dollar will buy a cup of coffee. Fair market prices are determined in the present, not the past and not the future.

MrEureka

..."You are what you sell". You sell quality, you will be perceived as a quality dealer. You sell at fair prices, you will be perceived as fair. Sell crap, you will be perceived as a piece of crap.

Hopefully that just came out wrong, but a dealer that sells accurately graded and accurately priced crappy coins is a good guy, not a piece of crap.

Fair market prices are determined in the present, not the past and not the future.

Of course. I never said otherwise.