<<"make more excuses. All of this process is so secret I cannot even get the names of the graders without a court order. Do I have the option of sending the coins to an independent association for revue, NO.">>
Since most of the BEST graders are already employed just where would you find the competent folks to serve or work in a review association?
Ss350camaro, “What type of training does a grader go thru? And how are they "graded" on their skills?
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ?”
These are my questions exactly. Is there a school? Is there a test? Is there a certificate of graduation? Is there a review board to certify you are competent to grade both U.S. and World coins? Heritage alone will do nearly $75 million in auction sales this year. All of these coins must be in the top three slabs, and no one knows the name of a single grader that certified these coins, or what credentials they might have had.
What amazes me most about this thread is that most of you do not seem to care if there are any improvement made to the system or not? Most everyone here collects certified coins, and submits raw coins to be certified, but few care who determines the value of these coins. As far as any of us know there are part time college students doing all this grading.
Dorkkarl, “ goldsaint, YOU are the problem, & everything about you represents what's wrong w/ the hobby today. it's not plastic, it's YOUR attitude. you come into it capable of only a single-minded assumption as to what's important, & that's GREED. you are a sham & a liar, because you entered the hobby wanting a free pass to make $$$, as if there's no other value to coin collecting than making $$$. it's an attitude many share, & it's just plain sad.”
In your crude way you are correct, in that I personally have at least as much interest in the economics of coin collecting as I do in the coins themselves. I am very interested in where the value of these coins are headed and what our U.S. economy in general will have in store for all of us over the next few years. It really has nothing to do with GREED as I am personally only at about breakeven dollar wise on my personal collection after buying so much of it in the last inflationary period. In actuality I would rather have a good discussion about the U.S. debt problem with Pat Buchanan than a discussion about the shape of the eagle on the back of an early dollar. I am the one on the left.
<< <i> In actuality I would rather have a good discussion about the U.S. debt problem with Pat Buchanan than a discussion about the shape of the eagle on the back of an early dollar. >>
Therein lies the problem. You bought coins and should have learned more before buying.
<< <i>Heritage alone will do nearly $75 million in auction sales this year. All of these coins must be in the top three slabs, and no one knows the name of a single grader that certified these coins, or what credentials they might have had. >>
Heritage seems to have no problem with using the services. If they thought it was a major problem wouldn't they address this issue?
It is way harder to get a job at PCGS/NGC than you think and you have to have the skills of grading down pat. Just because they won't give you the graders names dosen't mean they don't know how to grade. This is not a financial bank where everyone has their name listed on the door. There are reasons to keep the graders away from the public and thats so they won't have a conflict of intrest when they grade your coins!
There is nothing really inherently wrong with buying coins for investment purposes. Foolhardy, no doubt, but keep this in perspective, we're not talking about eating babies here. There is also no reason that someone who is "investing" in coins should not be able to expect a level of professionalism in the dealers, graders, and all the others who earn a living servicing the hobby.
Many people can not remember the coins they've seen in order to compare to one in hand. Such people can't be taught to become professional graders. Relatively few people will ever pick up the abilities needed for this job. There won't be college students in the back rooms. It doesn't really matter which knowledgeable grader graded a coin. Not because there can't be errors but because it's really an opinion and the grading companies don't want to sell an individual's opinion, they want to sell the service's opinion.
<< <i>What amazes me most about this thread is that most of you do not seem to care if there are any improvement made to the system or not? >>
improve the system? you do that by improving YOURSELF. that's because YOU are responsible for YOUR decisions. not pcgs, not ngc, not scam artists, not the coin vault, YOU are responsible for deciding what's right for YOU.
& YOU have no right to decide what's right for ME.
<< <i>Most everyone here collects certified coins, and submits raw coins to be certified, but few care who determines the value of these coins. >>
absurdly false. WHY DO YOU KEEP MISSING THE POINT??? YOU decide what a coin's worth, NOT NGC! OR PCGS!!!
<< <i>I am very interested in where the value of these coins are headed and what our U.S. economy in general will have in store for all of us over the next few years. It really has nothing to do with GREED as I am personally only at about breakeven dollar wise on my personal collection after buying so much of it in the last inflationary period. In actuality I would rather have a good discussion about the U.S. debt problem with Pat Buchanan than a discussion about the shape of the eagle on the back of an early dollar. I am the one on the left. >>
then it's simple, like i said before, for the sake of the few of us who actually care about coins, PLEASE find something else to collect. leave us collectors alone w/ our "problems". gee, somehow, some way, you know what? we'll muddle thru it.
<< <i>There is nothing really inherently wrong with buying coins for investment purposes. Foolhardy, no doubt, but keep this in perspective, we're not talking about eating babies here. There is also no reason that someone who is "investing" in coins should not be able to expect a level of professionalism in the dealers, graders, and all the others who earn a living servicing the hobby >>
ok, i can accept that. but if that's true, than YOU should accept the consequences for your stupidity (if you happen to be stupid). why should your foolhardy investments in coins require ME to buy only from licensed dealers, blah blah blah? this is the core of the problem i keep coming back to. in order for stupid "collectors" who are really investors-that-wanna-pretend-to-be-collectors, i as a collector who couldn't care less about $$$ motive have to put up with slabs & plastic & all the other sh*t that comes with idiots who can't buy something w/out SOMEONE ELSE saying it's ok.
I just happen to think your premise is wrong to begin or perhaps I need a better analogy. Real estate appraisers arrive at a market value to insure a lender that they have adequate collateral to loan someone money to refi or purchase real estate. The value they put on the property has to do with what the MARKET has determined what similar properties in proximity have sold for. I guarantee you that if you sent 5 appraisers out none of them would come up with same figure. Its the same reason why 3 graders look at a coin and they reach a consensus based upon their collective experience. If they get it wrong the market will determine the value of the coin same as if they get it right. Its the reason why coins in different slabs fetch different prices coupled with marketing. Who do you think gets more business, the overly conservative real estate appraiser or the one who pushes the limit?
If graders constantly get it wrong the market will speak and determine how valuable the grading companies opinions are, not whether on not the graders have gone through some class and received a license. You are asking for objective standards for something that boils down to subjectivity. The key in collecting if you collect slabbed coins is not being a good grader but understanding what a PCGS 65 is or an NGC 65 is. My standard or yours has nothing to do with theirs.
Most of the coin collecting hobby out their does not collect slabbed coins nor do they do it to make money. They do it for the pleasure of owning a piece of artistic history.
What type of training does a grader go thru? And how are they "graded" on their skills?
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ? >>
There's only one way to learn how to grade and that is to look at large numbers of coins. It's extremely beneficial to have someone show you he intricasies as you go along and this can greatly shorten the time to learn the skill. So long as a grader can usually grade a coin the same way or nearly the same way as the other pros then he's qualified. Of course, there are other things a grader will probably need to know like being able to spot counterfeits or altering. This can be taught.
There are other ways to shorten the time to learn these skills, but there is no alternative to looking at a lot of coins.
<< <i>What type of training does a grader go thru? >>
No one to my knowledge is hired by a top grading service without already knowing how to grade. If there is additional training after being hired, I suspect it isn't all that much.
<< <i>And how are they "graded" on their skills? What standards are the graders held to ? >>
They need to be able to grade coins in accordance with the standards of the company they work for. That's it.
<< <i>Who decides the type of training? >>
There is no "grader's school". You have to be able to grade (to the satisfaction of the company) in order to get the job.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I want to keep this one alive a little longer. I don't think anyone has really answered it completely ? .............................................................................................................................................................. "What type of training does a grader go thru? And how are they "graded" on their skills?
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ?
Actually Heritage does sell some raw coins and most of the coins Stacks sells are raw you just have to know HOW and WHERE to sell raw coins. Ask anybody who has been around 20 years or more and they will tell you about the big crash in 1989/90 where most coins lost over half their value, the market was pretty dead thru out most of the 90's finally starting to recover in the late 90's.
I purchased a cleaned scratched 1807 capped Bust Half (same as you were buying) in 1987 at the height of the coin boom (from Heritage no less) and sold it in 1992 pretty much the bottom of the current cycle (YES coin markets run in cycles so expect another crash in the future) well at the height of the coin market I paid less then $1000 (as AU 50) at PUBLIC auction and 5 years later at the bottom of the market I sold it at PUBLIC auction (Bust Half specialist) for over $8000 (as CH.XF 45) all the time the coin was raw and the problems described although I bought it as AU 50 and sold it as CH.XF 45 but choosing the right venue to sell in made the difference.
In your case NOTHING short of submitting your raw Bust Halves to ANACS or PCI will ensure all your coins are slabbed. Whether you want to believe it, not ALL coins will ever be slabbed by PCGS/NGC regardless of any licensed bonded or what ever controls you try to create and this is a CHOICE the big two have made. Slabs were created to help people sort problem coins from non problem coins so they could supposedly be trade sight unseen like commodities (although it never worked). When all is said and done coins are still collectibles A HOBBY where people spend some of their free time and money, to try and make it into some kind of definitive exact science type of business will just never ever work.
When it comes to coins KNOWLEDGE is the most valuable asset out there and trying to make the hobby fool proof so even the dumbest laziest people can blindly buy coins and be GUARANTEED to not make the wrong purchase will never work and the current slab market is a perfect example. As has been stated no ONE person grades a coin, it is a consensus of 3 graders with a fourth who finalizes so trying somehow to bond a grader and hold them responsible for a standard that does and will change in the future is not realistic and will never happen.
That is one of the biggest problems with America today, everyone wants everything fixed so no matter what THEY do someone else will have to pay if THEY make a mistake. What ever happened to personal responsibility?? If you screw up why should someone else have to pay for your mistake?? If you ask for someone's opinion and they do not tell you what YOU want to hear they made a mistake?? As I stated above KNOWLEDGE is the most valuable tool when it comes to any HOBBY and always will be.
<< <i>That is one of the biggest problems with America today, everyone wants everything fixed so no matter what THEY do someone else will have to pay if THEY make a mistake. What ever happened to personal responsibility?? If you screw up why should someone else have to pay for your mistake?? >>
yep, just what i've been saying since day 1. take responsibility for your own screw-ups, stop trying to blame plastic co's, seedy coin dealers, scam artists, ebay, teletrade, heritage, it's always somebody ELSE's fault???
<< <i>When it comes to coins KNOWLEDGE is the most valuable asset out there and trying to make the hobby fool proof so even the dumbest laziest people can blindly buy coins and be GUARANTEED to not make the wrong purchase will never work...
...everyone wants everything fixed so no matter what THEY do someone else will have to pay if THEY make a mistake. What ever happened to personal responsibility?? If you screw up why should someone else have to pay for your mistake?? If you ask for someone's opinion and they do not tell you what YOU want to hear they made a mistake?? >>
RotatedRainbows nailed it. That is the perfect synopsis of the underlying genesis of this thread.
"What type of training does a grader go thru? And how are they "graded" on their skills?
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ?"
I would imagine that at PCGS David Hall calls the shots on these issues and that the graders perform in accord with HIS interpretation of the ANA standards.
Comments
Since most of the BEST graders are already employed just where would you find the competent folks to serve or work in a review association?
“What type of training does a grader go thru? And how are they "graded" on their skills?
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ?”
These are my questions exactly. Is there a school? Is there a test? Is there a certificate of graduation?
Is there a review board to certify you are competent to grade both U.S. and World coins?
Heritage alone will do nearly $75 million in auction sales this year. All of these coins must be in the top three slabs, and no one knows the name of a single grader that certified these coins, or what credentials they might have had.
What amazes me most about this thread is that most of you do not seem to care if there are any improvement made to the system or not? Most everyone here collects certified coins, and submits raw coins to be certified, but few care who determines the value of these coins. As far as any of us know there are part time college students doing all this grading.
Dorkkarl,
“ goldsaint, YOU are the problem, & everything about you represents what's wrong w/ the hobby today. it's not plastic, it's YOUR attitude. you come into it capable of only a single-minded assumption as to what's important, & that's GREED. you are a sham & a liar, because you entered the hobby wanting a free pass to make $$$, as if there's no other value to coin collecting than making $$$. it's an attitude many share, & it's just plain sad.”
In your crude way you are correct, in that I personally have at least as much interest in the economics of coin collecting as I do in the coins themselves. I am very interested in where the value of these coins are headed and what our U.S. economy in general will have in store for all of us over the next few years.
It really has nothing to do with GREED as I am personally only at about breakeven dollar wise on my personal collection after buying so much of it in the last inflationary period. In actuality I would rather have a good discussion about the U.S. debt problem with Pat Buchanan than a discussion about the shape of the eagle on the back of an early dollar. I am the one on the left.
<< <i> In actuality I would rather have a good discussion about the U.S. debt problem with Pat Buchanan than a discussion about the shape of the eagle on the back of an early dollar. >>
Therein lies the problem. You bought coins and should have learned more before buying.
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>Heritage alone will do nearly $75 million in auction sales this year. All of these coins must be in the top three slabs, and no one knows the name of a single grader that certified these coins, or what credentials they might have had. >>
Heritage seems to have no problem with using the services. If they thought it was a major problem wouldn't they address this issue?
It is way harder to get a job at PCGS/NGC than you think and you have to have the skills of grading down pat. Just because they won't give you the graders names dosen't mean they don't know how to grade. This is not a financial bank where everyone has their name listed on the door. There are reasons to keep the graders away from the public and thats so they won't have a conflict of intrest when they grade your coins!
Cameron Kiefer
Not true. Heritage DOES auction other slabs!
What type of training does a grader go thru? And how are they "graded" on their skills?
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ?
doubt, but keep this in perspective, we're not talking about eating babies here. There is also no
reason that someone who is "investing" in coins should not be able to expect a level of professionalism
in the dealers, graders, and all the others who earn a living servicing the hobby.
Many people can not remember the coins they've seen in order to compare to one in hand. Such people
can't be taught to become professional graders. Relatively few people will ever pick up the abilities
needed for this job. There won't be college students in the back rooms. It doesn't really matter which
knowledgeable grader graded a coin. Not because there can't be errors but because it's really an opinion
and the grading companies don't want to sell an individual's opinion, they want to sell the service's opinion.
<< <i>What amazes me most about this thread is that most of you do not seem to care if there are any improvement made to the system or not? >>
improve the system? you do that by improving YOURSELF. that's because YOU are responsible for YOUR decisions. not pcgs, not ngc, not scam artists, not the coin vault, YOU are responsible for deciding what's right for YOU.
& YOU have no right to decide what's right for ME.
<< <i>Most everyone here collects certified coins, and submits raw coins to be certified, but few care who determines the value of these coins. >>
absurdly false. WHY DO YOU KEEP MISSING THE POINT??? YOU decide what a coin's worth, NOT NGC! OR PCGS!!!
<< <i>I am very interested in where the value of these coins are headed and what our U.S. economy in general will have in store for all of us over the next few years. It really has nothing to do with GREED as I am personally only at about breakeven dollar wise on my personal collection after buying so much of it in the last inflationary period. In actuality I would rather have a good discussion about the U.S. debt problem with Pat Buchanan than a discussion about the shape of the eagle on the back of an early dollar. I am the one on the left. >>
then it's simple, like i said before, for the sake of the few of us who actually care about coins, PLEASE find something else to collect. leave us collectors alone w/ our "problems". gee, somehow, some way, you know what? we'll muddle thru it.
K S
<< <i>There is nothing really inherently wrong with buying coins for investment purposes. Foolhardy, no doubt, but keep this in perspective, we're not talking about eating babies here. There is also no reason that someone who is "investing" in coins should not be able to expect a level of professionalism in the dealers, graders, and all the others who earn a living servicing the hobby >>
ok, i can accept that. but if that's true, than YOU should accept the consequences for your stupidity (if you happen to be stupid). why should your foolhardy investments in coins require ME to buy only from licensed dealers, blah blah blah? this is the core of the problem i keep coming back to. in order for stupid "collectors" who are really investors-that-wanna-pretend-to-be-collectors, i as a collector who couldn't care less about $$$ motive have to put up with slabs & plastic & all the other sh*t that comes with idiots who can't buy something w/out SOMEONE ELSE saying it's ok.
if you screw up, it's your problem, accept it
K S
ps obviously not directed at "you" personally
What type of training does a grader go thru? And how are they "graded" on their skills?
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ?
If graders constantly get it wrong the market will speak and determine how valuable the grading companies opinions are, not whether on not the graders have gone through some class and received a license. You are asking for objective standards for something that boils down to subjectivity. The key in collecting if you collect slabbed coins is not being a good grader but understanding what a PCGS 65 is or an NGC 65 is. My standard or yours has nothing to do with theirs.
Most of the coin collecting hobby out their does not collect slabbed coins nor do they do it to make money. They do it for the pleasure of owning a piece of artistic history.
<< <i>.
What type of training does a grader go thru? And how are they "graded" on their skills?
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ? >>
There's only one way to learn how to grade and that is to look at large numbers of coins. It's
extremely beneficial to have someone show you he intricasies as you go along and this can
greatly shorten the time to learn the skill. So long as a grader can usually grade a coin the same
way or nearly the same way as the other pros then he's qualified. Of course, there are other
things a grader will probably need to know like being able to spot counterfeits or altering. This
can be taught.
There are other ways to shorten the time to learn these skills, but there is no alternative to
looking at a lot of coins.
<< <i>What type of training does a grader go thru? >>
No one to my knowledge is hired by a top grading service without already knowing how to grade. If there is additional training after being hired, I suspect it isn't all that much.
<< <i>And how are they "graded" on their skills? What standards are the graders held to ? >>
They need to be able to grade coins in accordance with the standards of the company they work for. That's it.
<< <i>Who decides the type of training? >>
There is no "grader's school". You have to be able to grade (to the satisfaction of the company) in order to get the job.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I want to keep this one alive a little longer. I don't think anyone has really answered it completely ?
..............................................................................................................................................................
"What type of training does a grader go thru? And how are they "graded" on their skills?
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ?
I purchased a cleaned scratched 1807 capped Bust Half (same as you were buying) in 1987 at the height of the coin boom (from Heritage no less) and sold it in 1992 pretty much the bottom of the current cycle (YES coin markets run in cycles so expect another crash in the future) well at the height of the coin market I paid less then $1000 (as AU 50) at PUBLIC auction and 5 years later at the bottom of the market I sold it at PUBLIC auction (Bust Half specialist) for over $8000 (as CH.XF 45) all the time the coin was raw and the problems described although I bought it as AU 50 and sold it as CH.XF 45 but choosing the right venue to sell in made the difference.
In your case NOTHING short of submitting your raw Bust Halves to ANACS or PCI will ensure all your coins are slabbed. Whether you want to believe it, not ALL coins will ever be slabbed by PCGS/NGC regardless of any licensed bonded or what ever controls you try to create and this is a CHOICE the big two have made. Slabs were created to help people sort problem coins from non problem coins so they could supposedly be trade sight unseen like commodities (although it never worked). When all is said and done coins are still collectibles A HOBBY where people spend some of their free time and money, to try and make it into some kind of definitive exact science type of business will just never ever work.
When it comes to coins KNOWLEDGE is the most valuable asset out there and trying to make the hobby fool proof so even the dumbest laziest people can blindly buy coins and be GUARANTEED to not make the wrong purchase will never work and the current slab market is a perfect example. As has been stated no ONE person grades a coin, it is a consensus of 3 graders with a fourth who finalizes so trying somehow to bond a grader and hold them responsible for a standard that does and will change in the future is not realistic and will never happen.
That is one of the biggest problems with America today, everyone wants everything fixed so no matter what THEY do someone else will have to pay if THEY make a mistake. What ever happened to personal responsibility?? If you screw up why should someone else have to pay for your mistake?? If you ask for someone's opinion and they do not tell you what YOU want to hear they made a mistake??
As I stated above KNOWLEDGE is the most valuable tool when it comes to any HOBBY and always will be.
<< <i>That is one of the biggest problems with America today, everyone wants everything fixed so no matter what THEY do someone else will have to pay if THEY make a mistake. What ever happened to personal responsibility?? If you screw up why should someone else have to pay for your mistake?? >>
yep, just what i've been saying since day 1. take responsibility for your own screw-ups, stop trying to blame plastic co's, seedy coin dealers, scam artists, ebay, teletrade, heritage, it's always somebody ELSE's fault???
but i think goldsaint will never understand this.
K S
<< <i>When it comes to coins KNOWLEDGE is the most valuable asset out there and trying to make the hobby fool proof so even the dumbest laziest people can blindly buy coins and be GUARANTEED to not make the wrong purchase will never work...
...everyone wants everything fixed so no matter what THEY do someone else will have to pay if THEY make a mistake. What ever happened to personal responsibility?? If you screw up why should someone else have to pay for your mistake?? If you ask for someone's opinion and they do not tell you what YOU want to hear they made a mistake?? >>
RotatedRainbows nailed it. That is the perfect synopsis of the underlying genesis of this thread.
Russ, NCNE
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ?"
I would imagine that at PCGS David Hall calls the shots on these issues and that the graders perform in accord with HIS interpretation of the ANA standards.