LICENSEING PROFESSIONAL GRADERS
GOLDSAINT
Posts: 2,148 ✭
LICENSEING PROFESSIONAL GRADERS
It is my belief it is time to have all professional graders licensed, bonded, and responsible to their companies, and the collecting public. This is the logical next step in the professional certification process, and millions of future dealers and collectors will thank us for the work we do here.
So many of us are spending huge amounts of time on cracking out bad certifications, receiving unwarranted body bags, gathering different grades from various companies, loosing money on sales of under graded coins.
What are our current options? If you look at the case I posted a couple of weeks ago where over one third of my 30 year collection got bagged, here are my choices, I can waste more money suing, I can, as per the form letter that NGC sent me, send the coins back to them for review, risking mail problems and allowing them to just further defend their grades. I could spend several thousand more dollars submitting to PCGS and then spend endless amounts of time trying to get a refund from NGC while they make more excuses. All of this process is so secret I cannot even get the names of the graders without a court order. Do I have the option of sending the coins to an independent association for revue, NO. Will I ever find out if this was their error or mine, NO. Is there an effective way to get the thousands of dollars back I paid for what “might” be bad grades NO. Is there anyway for any of you to challenge any of your certifications without going through additional expensive hassles, NO.
As many have already pointed out all other appraisers and certifiers of personal property in the areas of real-estate, mining, assaying, etc.etc. Where the certifications are being used as a market value MUST be schooled, licensed, and bonded. As our hobby becomes an industry, where the public relies on these certification companies, it is time to take the next step, and that is the licensing by an INDEPENDENT association for all coin graders that issue their opinions for a fee. So what should be the next step and whom should we request set the standard, and run the association?
It is my belief it is time to have all professional graders licensed, bonded, and responsible to their companies, and the collecting public. This is the logical next step in the professional certification process, and millions of future dealers and collectors will thank us for the work we do here.
So many of us are spending huge amounts of time on cracking out bad certifications, receiving unwarranted body bags, gathering different grades from various companies, loosing money on sales of under graded coins.
What are our current options? If you look at the case I posted a couple of weeks ago where over one third of my 30 year collection got bagged, here are my choices, I can waste more money suing, I can, as per the form letter that NGC sent me, send the coins back to them for review, risking mail problems and allowing them to just further defend their grades. I could spend several thousand more dollars submitting to PCGS and then spend endless amounts of time trying to get a refund from NGC while they make more excuses. All of this process is so secret I cannot even get the names of the graders without a court order. Do I have the option of sending the coins to an independent association for revue, NO. Will I ever find out if this was their error or mine, NO. Is there an effective way to get the thousands of dollars back I paid for what “might” be bad grades NO. Is there anyway for any of you to challenge any of your certifications without going through additional expensive hassles, NO.
As many have already pointed out all other appraisers and certifiers of personal property in the areas of real-estate, mining, assaying, etc.etc. Where the certifications are being used as a market value MUST be schooled, licensed, and bonded. As our hobby becomes an industry, where the public relies on these certification companies, it is time to take the next step, and that is the licensing by an INDEPENDENT association for all coin graders that issue their opinions for a fee. So what should be the next step and whom should we request set the standard, and run the association?
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Comments
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Cameron Kiefer
Grading is too subjective. Perhaps it could have worked in the era where Uncs were graded 60-63-65-67, but not with one-point grading between 60-70.
I would argue that top-tier services are already on a par with the real estate, mining, etc. appraisers. If a piece of property is appraised by one appraiser at $4 million, and someone else says it's worth only $3.8 million, no one has a fit. It's an honest difference of opinion - just like grading Unc coins in one-point increments. The difference is that in real estate, the $3.8 or $4 million appraisal isn't the final word - it's understood to be an opinion. For some reason, we point to a slabbed grade as not only the final word on the grade, but the absolute indicator of value as well. At the same time, we crack out coins and keep resubmitting them. Those are contradictory behaviors.
Don't misunderstand me, Goldsaint. I do feel badly for you regarding how your grading experience went. But I don't see how licensing is going to solve anything. The problem isn't that graders are incompetent, it's that we are demanding a level of performance that's not humanly possible.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Cameron Kiefer
get a clue dude, grades are OPINIONS
K S
<< <i>If you look at the case I posted a couple of weeks ago where over one third of my 30 year collection got bagged, here are my choices, I can waste more money suing, I can, as per the form letter that NGC sent me, send the coins back to them for review, risking mail problems and allowing them to just further defend their grades. I could spend several thousand more dollars submitting to PCGS and then spend endless amounts of time trying to get a refund from NGC while they make more excuses. >>
.... blah blah blah, you totally miss the point. YOU CAN JUST SELL THE COINS AS -IS, ie. not slabbed.
there is NO RULE, NO LAW, NO REQUREMENT WHATSOEVER that coins must be slabed to get bought & sold.
the difference between grading coins & all the other examples you listed (real-estate, mining, etc) is those are professions based on objective analysis. ie. either the house has a title or it doesn't, either there's ore in the ground or there isn't. again, a coin isn't "worthless" or "worth something". it's always worth what someone will pay for it.
you are, to be blunt, plastic-blind.
K S
Ken
“This was recommended by (?) Bob Campbell several years ago and was shot down.”
Well let’s try again! I might also point out that several years ago the market value of our “hobby” was perhaps one third of what it is today and in a few years it is likely to be 3 times more valuable than today. What seems insignificant today in the certification of modern coins today for example might be commonly thousands of dollars in difference between MS 60 and MS 69 in a few years. Who thought 50 years ago that you would have to have a certified licensed, bonded, appraiser value your home in order to get a government insured mortgage?
“ Grading is too subjective. Perhaps it could have worked in the era where Uncs were graded 60-63-65-67, but not with one-point grading between 60-70.”
We all hear this argument time and time again, but why is it that you cannot sell your coins at a major auction house, at a top show, unless they are certified by one of the top 3 companies, if this is a guessing game?
Why is it that the values paid for top 3 certifiers are 25% to 40% higher, if this is some graders best GUESS?
What ever happened to buying site unseen certified coins?
“Bad idea, no one forces you to buy a slabbed coin there aren't any public safety or health issues involved”
So my friend, exactly what safety and health issues are involved in being forced to purchase a survey of a property before you get a mortgage. All of these licensed professionals in all these other areas are issuing expert opinions that keep people from loosing money on their investments, and certifies to all involved that what is being bought or sold is of a stated CERTIFIED quality.
No one is asking that there not be some room in these grades for personal opinion. In real-estate you might have 5 different values from 5 different appraisers, but you should not have a value from the lowest at $50,000 and the highest at $150,000 for a home valued at $100,000.
Michael
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>If you look at the case I posted a couple of weeks ago where over one third of my 30 year collection got bagged, here are my choices, I can waste more money suing, I can, as per the form letter that NGC sent me >>
I guess it didn't occur to you that maybe they got bodybagged because they deserved to be bodybagged? I guess your advocacy of licensing is based on the fact that you found out some of your coins aren't quite as good as you'd hoped - paid - for.
Russ, NCNE
Dorkkarl - I understand why you say that. By definition, opinions cannot be correct or incorrect. BTW, have you considered serving as an expert witness for ACG? They're probably going to want to make that same point.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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<< <i>“ Grading is too subjective. Perhaps it could have worked in the era where Uncs were graded 60-63-65-67, but not with one-point grading between 60-70.”
We all hear this argument time and time again, but why is it that you cannot sell your coins at a major auction house, at a top show, unless they are certified by one of the top 3 companies, if this is a guessing game?
Why is it that the values paid for top 3 certifiers are 25% to 40% higher, if this is some graders best GUESS?
What ever happened to buying site unseen certified coins? >>
I can't speak to why coins can't be sold at a major auction or show without being in one of the big three slabs, but I don't think it would be related to licensing of graders. Does Stack's still sell high-grade raw coins in their auctions? I know they used to.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>Grading is too subjective >>
actually, grading is TOTALLY subjective, not just "too" subjective. sorry, there's no room for argument here. you will never, ever convince me that a single coin blind-graded by even the same person 100 times even w/in the same hour will hit the same grade 100% of the time, & that this is true of all coins. it won't happen, not today, not tomorrow, not EVER. you HAVE TO GET OVER IT. it's the way a hobby is supposed to be, & i wouldn't want it any other way. the only people who stubbornly try to insist that grading is not totally subjective are people like you who care about $$$
<< <i>why is it that you cannot sell your coins at a major auction house, at a top show, unless they are certified by one of the top 3 companies >>
since that's a lie, there's no rebuttal necessary.
<< <i>Why is it that the values paid for top 3 certifiers are 25% to 40% higher, if this is some graders best GUESS? >>
are you truly that clueless? there's a very simple answer: ADVERTISING. analogy: why does del-monte green beans cost 250% more than the generic store brand when they are the exact same green beans?
<< <i>What ever happened to buying site unseen certified coins? >>
that was NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER EVER a coin collector's idea, that was the idiotic idea of COIN DEALERS whose only motive is PROFIT
<< <i>So my friend, exactly what safety and health issues are involved in being forced to purchase a survey of a property before you get a mortgage >>
health issues aren't the point. a property can be OBJECTIVELY surveyed. either it's your land or it isn't. there's not subjective concept such as, it's "somewhat" your land. it's yours or it isn't. IT'S BLACK & WHITE, GRADING COINS IS NOT
there is a simple solution, & i don't understand why you can't comprehend it. if you can't handle collecting coins, COLLECT SOMETHING ELSE
<< <i>Dorkkarl - I understand why you say that. By definition, opinions cannot be correct or incorrect. BTW, have you considered serving as an expert witness for ACG? They're probably going to want to make that same point. >>
yes, & sorry to say this, but acg will be 100% correct
K S
<< <i>As our hobby becomes an industry, where the public relies on these certification companies >>
This should read. "Where the uneducated section of the public relies on these certification companies."
I see that you have collected for 30 years and probably got trapped into thinking your grading was on the par with industry standards from the start. Looking back from personal experience I am not so sure that back in the 80's the coins I bought would make it into a slab now days. Some would, I suppose, but the sad truth is that a readily available source of coins to compare to industry standards was not available in the area I lived in so my grading standards were set to the standards that the local dealers had established. This is exactly what appears to have happened to you also.
Now days coins are available readily through electronic means for viewing and for purchase and with a small amount of work your grading standards can be refined to Industry Standards. Of course though if a person is just a Plastic Buyer and pays No Attention to what they are buying grade wise or money wise their collection could turn out just like yours did in respect to the amount of money it is worth.
Coin Grades are opinions only, it always has been that way and it always will be that way. Sometimes its sad what happens to a person with his/her collection but in this age of collecting, with all of the information readily available for the asking, fewer stories like yours should arise if a collector will just take their time to learn and comprehend the information.
Ken
The fact that grading coins has a subjective element is a red herring argument against certification of graders. If grading were perfectly objective, all we'd need is some formula or algorithm, and we could all to it ourselves without fear of disagreements.
I understand that there are practical problems in implemnetation that would need to be overcome. But, we're talking about concepts here, not practice yet.
I wonder how many of you naysayers would have had the same reaction to certifying coins back in 1985, or even now?
In closing, let me say that I also agree with Goldsaint that the grading services should take some responsibility for their mistakes. Why, for example, do we not receive a refund when a coin is resubmitted and upgraded? Why, that is, are we paying for their mistakes in both grading fees and/or lower valued coins?
1. Nearly all coins of any value should be able to be graded and slabbed with the proper notations, just as ANNACS does. If a coin is cleaned, dipped, AT, scratched, etc. all beyond a reasonable doubt, and the fee is paid, to have it certified it should be certified. No judgment should be made on the part of the Grader as to why the customer wants the certification done.
2. All certified coins should be in slabs of the approximate same dimensions, and should contain the individual seal or license number of the Grader.
3. All licensed graders should be required to carry bonding in the approximate amount of one months value of the coins that they certify each month i.e. if they are certifying $500,000 worth of coins each month they must be bonded for at least $500,000.
4. All graders should be required to take certain grading classes, and pass certain tests, before being licensed, and should also be required to take annual continuing education classes each year to keep up with new issues and changes in the industry.
“ Can't you let this die already? Ever since you had a bad experience, nearly every comment that I have seen from you is bashing the TPGs.”
As far as my personal situation goes all of this would be to late even if all graders were required to be licensed as a result of our joint efforts, so none of this will help me, and since none of us know each other, I will share with you that my economic loss from my recent NGC submittal is two weeks income for me, and nothing more, however the loss to our industry appears to me to be perhaps in the millions, and something really should be done to rectify this bad situation.
Someone has already ask the question, “ who will be involved the next lawsuit”, will it be PCI, NNC etc? All of these legal, as well as personal disagreements could be avoided if the were a private regulatory commission to submit grievances to.
ACG already has the Coin World article which will be more damning than any testimony.
The more this is discussed, the more it proves there is NO standard that is agreed upon at this time.
For the record, I don't like ACG grading. I do believe it has mislead the (ignorant/greedy/other?) buying public. (Hopefully it also mislead the dealers because I hope they wouldn't knowingly take advantage of overgrading)
And because it has been stated many times that grading is an OPINION, I am not clear on what ACG has actually done wrong from a legal/lawsuit perspective. (now from an ethical point of view ...)
We all know that there has been slab gradeflation. Is it possible that ACG is ahead of the curve?
I think for the most part it is agreed that things are much better off than the days when sliders were sold as MS-65. But it still leaves room for differences of opinions. That's why I don't like market grading. Because market grading is trying to price the coin and not "grade" it. If we got away from trying to treat the grade as the one and only factor affecting price, maybe we can get to "buy the coin, NOT the slab" while recognizing that the slabbing co's do provide valuable services such as authentification, giving an opinion as to the grade and some have a guarantee of mininum grade.
Grading is too subjective and "standards" appear to change over time which will make any absolute impossible.
Joe.
Cameron Kiefer
private regulatory commission to submit grievances to. If the graders aren't forced by government regulators to be certified, what makes you think they will join a "private regulatory commission?" You are basically, without coming out and saying so, inviting government regulation of the coin industry. Your idea is good in theory, but weak in content and thought. I agree with Cameron.
Thanksgiving National Battlefield Coin Show is November 29-30, 2024 at the Eisenhower Allstar Sportsplex, Gettysburg, PA. Tables are available. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
<< <i>What's so wrong about having graders certified? This doesn't have to mean that all graders must be certified. If I go to a jeweler to obtain an appraisal, I can choose one who is certified by GIA or not. >>
i keep going over this. the difference is that grading diamonds is black & white. either it has no collusion, or it has some. either it's color is X or it's Y. either it's 1.06 carats or it's 1.07 carats. anyone who can read a scale can weigh a diamond proplery.
grading coins DOES NOT work that way. it is TOTALLY subjective, not a little bit, not somewhat, not overly, but TOTALLY & COMPLETELY subjective.
<< <i>The fact that grading coins has a subjective element is a red herring argument against certification of graders. If grading were perfectly objective, all we'd need is some formula or algorithm, and we could all to it ourselves without fear of disagreements. >>
baloney, see my previous comment. formulas don't work for coins, they work for diamonds.
<< <i>In closing, let me say that I also agree with Goldsaint that the grading services should take some responsibility for their mistakes. Why, for example, do we not receive a refund when a coin is resubmitted and upgraded? Why, that is, are we paying for their mistakes in both grading fees and/or lower valued coins? >>
now THAT, i totally agree w/.
<< <i>Nearly all coins of any value should be able to be graded and slabbed with the proper notations, just as ANNACS does. If a coin is cleaned, dipped, AT, scratched, etc. all beyond a reasonable doubt, and the fee is paid, to have it certified it should be certified. No judgment should be made on the part of the Grader as to why the customer wants the certification done >>
ludicrous! please name even 1 single grader who can tell w/ 100% accuracy that a coin's been dipped? or who can tell w/ 100% accuracy that it's a scratch & not a hairline, or strike thru, or w/ 100% accuracy that it's not a planchet flaw. ludicrous!!!
<< <i>All certified coins should be in slabs of the approximate same dimensions, and should contain the individual seal or license number of the Grader >>
why? what about multi-coin slabs? what about $50 slugs? what about foreign crowns? why should i be forced to have the same size slab you want?
blah blah blah, all your suggestions are fraught w/ nonsense that just doesn't make any sense.
goldsaint, you are dense. your unable to grasp the simple concept of subjectivity. until you do, you will NEVER understand coin collecting. which is why you are so angry. it has nothing to do w/ 3pg.
K S
I am not inviting the government in, what would they have to offer worthwhile?
Most all other professions i.e. Gem appraisers, real-estate appraisers, surveyors, etc. have there own regulatory body or association that they all conform to the rules of.
If for example the licensing was done by the “ANA board of certified coin appraisers”, that would be a good start. The ANA board would set the grading standards, rules etc., and not the owners of the slab companies.
If a slab company hired un-licensed certifiers then they would lose their reputations and get involved in legal problems, or the market would just force them out.
Thanksgiving National Battlefield Coin Show is November 29-30, 2024 at the Eisenhower Allstar Sportsplex, Gettysburg, PA. Tables are available. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
You had a learning experience, all of us have them.
Bottom line is that grading is subjective.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
Thanksgiving National Battlefield Coin Show is November 29-30, 2024 at the Eisenhower Allstar Sportsplex, Gettysburg, PA. Tables are available. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
<< <i>Can't you let this die already? Ever since you had a bad experience, nearly every comment that I have seen from you is bashing the TPGs. If you don't like them, don't use them. Dorkkarl has it right, you are plastic blind.
Ken >>
Couldn't agree more.
Forcing graders to be licensed would not have prevented your coins from being bodybagged. Buying the right coins in the first place would have. If over 33% of your coins got a toe tag, I'd have to guess the problem is yours - not the grading industry's.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>...If a slab company hired un-licensed certifiers then they would lose their reputations and get involved in legal problems, or the market would just force them out. >>
Not if they happened to be the best graders, "licensed" or not. The free market system would see to it.
The fact: PCGS coins, and to a somewhat lesser degree on the whole, NGC coins demand the highest prices. The other tpg products fall in line pricewise, fairly predictably, absent a standout coin in a "lesser" holder, (which, quite possibly, will eventually end up in a pcgs or ngc slab).
The companies with the best "reputations" will simply be those whose products demand the greatest prices.
Unless the government is brought in and licensing becomes the rule of law, like it or not, the slabs that cost the most are the ones that are going to get the r-e-s-p-e-c-t, and we are going to continue to have to jump through the hoops that are placed in front of us to maximize the value of our holdings.
z
why does del-monte green beans cost 250% more than the generic store brand when they are the exact same green beans?
answer: ADVERTISING.
<< <i>What I've learned from this discussion:
why does del-monte green beans cost 250% more than the generic store brand when they are the exact same green beans?
answer: ADVERTISING. >>
Perhaps you need to think a little more critically.
It is not "advertisement" that garners the best coins the highest prices. It is the fact that coins encapsulated by NGC and PCGS demand the greatest amount of return when sold. Simple.
The reasons for this are 1) the best coins are generally sent to these companies, 2) they are generally more accurate/conservative with their grading standards, 3) to a certain degree they guarantee their work.
ACG, NTC, PCI all advertise. I guess they earn enough to keep their doors open. They certainly don't earn the respect of the most sophisticated collectors/numismatists/dealers simply by paying for adds in coin mags.
z
that it's a very ugly and complicated system whereby coins eventually become maxxed out
in some TPG's slab. There are some people who know to whom these coins should be sent
right off he bat and others who simply trust one company or another for all their grading needs.
Certainly with the myriad services and the multitude of collectors it's a complicated system.
As others have said, there is really no alternatives to th current system so long as collectors
can not agree on exactly what constitutes quality. So long as one collector seeks strike while
another values clean surfaces or thick original skin then there is simply no way to reconcile such
differences in a single grading system.
It is possible that multiple systems could be employed, but this would be extremely cumbersome
to many individual collectors without a third party's opinion on price.
There may be ways to tweek the current system to make it much more user friendly. While at least
the major services are reasonably forthcoming with what standards they employ, it would be nice
to actually see this written up in easy to understand language and available to the end users. All
the services might profit from a little more consumer education. It's unlikely that very many would
find they no longer needed the services so such an effort might actually increase business slightly.
While actual licencing and the like would have little benefit probably, it might be good to have some
of these trappings to alleviate anxiety in the newbies and to give perhaps one more opportunity to
tell them that this is an opinion. Bonding might keep out fly-by-night graders or assist in identifying
them.
If we could just all agree on what makes one coin nicer than another then we wouldn't have all these
problems. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting though.
I see many very good things that might come from having graders licensed and bonded.
The first thing I see is a level playing field for new competitors that would like to try to compete for a share of the multi-million dollar certification business.
The second thing I see is more open communication between the actual people we hire to grade our coins and ourselves. Have you ever tried to discuss your grades with a real grader at NGC? I have, you cannot even get their name.
Third this does not look like a one-person problem to me. If you could pull all the pictures of cracked slabs, comments about bad grading, bad third tier companies, from our forum over the last year it would fill volumes.
Are all of these comments made here like “ each grader gets 10 seconds to grade each coin” or “ word has come down from the top that grading standards must be tightened” or “all of XYZ companies grades are bad” or “ I resubmitted this coin to XYZ and the grade went up 6 points” just lies that many of you spread to stir the pot. Do these things truly happen or not?
This may not have occurred to many of you, but the reason our hobby grading is subjective is there is no formal association setting standards.
Camelot
For those of you that want to make fun of my personal situation rather than add the reasons why you really think that licensing, and bonding, is a bad idea please be my guest. As I have already pointed out my interest in seeing our hobby grow to the next logical step does nothing for my personal collection.
I have no objection to anything which would improve the TPGs. I just don't believe that licensing graders or industry standards could make any impact. To repeat my earlier comment, we are demanding a level of performance that is not humanly possible. There is no way, no matter what, that anyone could come up with a method for everyone to grade an MS coin exactly the same when we microslice the scale up into ten points.
Goldsaint, I did not intend to make fun of your situation in any way, and I apologize if my comments came across that way.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
For example, I'll use my profession seeing as how it applies perfectly. We have 3 years of law school to learn our trade, a vigorous 3 day Bar Exam to weed out the idiots, continuing legal education to make sure we stay abreast of new law and a discplinary system that can suspend-disbar an attorney for so much as a DUI. We carry malpractice insurance and pay a yearly due to the State Bar. There are hotlines to voice compaints about attorneys and people in little offices in Sacramento to enforce regulations.
The practice of law is very much the practice of opinions as most of you can already tell. No two lawyers will ever see the same issue the same way, nor will they interpret the same case the same way. There are very few hard and fast rules/laws that aren't open to interpretation. So when you talk to a lawyer realize he is giving you his opinion on that law, somoeone else might have a different opinion -- as two different graders will with a coin.
Now let me ask you a question --- any there lawyers that just downright suck? Sure there are. There are plenty of them. I deal with a bunch on a daily basis, but they meet the minimum requirements to practice so they have a license.
Sorry to say, but you can't regulate a profession or business to weed out the crap. You need to educate the public to ask the right questions so they may avoid the wrong lawyers. Nothing different here. People who buy coins need to educate themselves. I'm not saying you aren't Goldsaint, I'm just saying that regulation doesn't always have the intended consequences.
Michael
<< <i>a vigorous 3 day Bar Exam to weed out the idiots >>
Anybody want to have a field day with that one?
Russ, NCNE
Frattlaw I do see some of your points but I think there should be much less disagreement in a piece of physical evidence, and an opinion on an opinion about a legal issue.
The point here is that the certifying companies have convinced everyone that there can be no set rules for coin grading, NONE. That leaves them totally off the hook when coins are both under graded or over graded. As to being educated in what one buys or sells everyone does the best they can, but then why have hired experts? In today’s complex society no one but a genius can be a bond expert, a real-estate expert, a coin, expert etc.
“Now let me ask you a question --- any there lawyers that just downright suck? Sure there are. There are plenty of them. I deal with a bunch on a daily basis, but they meet the minimum requirements to practice so they have a license.”
I will also assume that after some time and many complaints that the worst of the attorneys float to the bottom. I also think this would happen with licensed graders.
Does anyone here think that if PCI or ACG hired away all the NGC graders that in a year or two they would be one of the top certifying companies in the U.S.?
Does anyone here think that even if a new company was formed, and they hired away all the NGC graders they would rise to the top?
Frattlaw, if someone in your city hired away all the top attorneys in your city and put them in one firm, would that firm rise to the top?
What do you think the public would say if all law firms had to be called by a corporate name and no client could see, or talk with, or even know who did the work on their case?
Having no “court” of appeal, or not even to be allowed to know the name of an individual that perhaps is dealing with your family fortune is an absolute absurdity.
As for subjective opinions as to grading, that's a much tougher case but any TPG would be held to a negligence standard as well for grading opinions ie., grading a MS65 coin a VF35 or in the case of some TPGs grading a VF35 coin a MS65.
No different for lawyer or doctors -- it's just called malpractice.
Michael
The more an more we rely on certified coins, the more we are back in the early 1980's relying on our own skills to buy a coin. That's the way it was then, and pretty much how it is today.
roadrunner
What type of training does a grader go thru? And how are they "graded" on their skills?
Who decides the type of training? What standards are the graders held to ?
FrattLaw may be right. I've been back collecting for only a month after a 30 year absence and I've learned more about what not to do in the past 14 days of reading the comments in this forum and going to the related sites that all of you wonderfull collectors have made available for me.
I have learned to only buy what I want to buy and generally that will be PCGS graded coins. I will sleep better at night and have more fun collecting -
Its too bad that GOLDSAINT had the experience he did, it should have never happened, but thanks to his openess and this forum, I will benifit from his experience.
Good Luck
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<< <i>Perhaps you need to think a little more critically. It is not "advertisement" that garners the best coins the highest prices. It is the fact that coins encapsulated by NGC and PCGS demand the greatest amount of return when sold. Simple. >>
huh? so why can't i put coins in my own piece of plastic & sell them at a premium then? i'll tell you why, I DON'T ADVERTISE. ngc & pcgs get extraordinary levels of advertising each time a png dealer says "by plastic only", or a national dealer implies that only plastic is trustworthy, blah blah blah. do you REALLY think that if nobody ever made such comments that ugly, bulky plastic holders prone to scratches would demand a premium???
besides, you've completely missed the point, which is that in reality, pcgs & ngc don't grade anywhere near consistent enough to justify any attempts at "licensing". they DO NOT guarantee grades, becuase if they did, they would guarantee 100% against overgrades AND UNDERGRADES. until they do (which is impossible), licensing is a non-issue.
i just don't buy into this whole mystical concept that some faceless, nameless, greedy corporation can grade MY coins to MY satisfaction.
goldsaint, YOU are the problem, & everything about you represents what's wrong w/ the hobby today. it's not plastic, it's YOUR attitude. you come into it capable of only a single-minded assumption as to what's important, & that's GREED. you are a sham & a liar, because you entered the hobby wanting a free pass to make $$$, as if there's no other value to coin collecting than making $$$. it's an attitude many share, & it's just plain sad.
i feel sorry for you. you will NEVER get it, & you will NEVER enjoy coin collecting. i said it before, i'll say it again, YOU need a different hobby. 1 that you can handle.
like beenie babies.
K S
<< <i>Dorkkarl, I don't buy the fact that the grading of diamonds is fool proof. There is lots of room for interpretation as to color, clarity, cut, etc. >>
there is not. spectrography gives a definitive evaluation as to color & clarity. cut is obviously well-defined. the parameters for distinction between 2 grades of a diamond is extremely small. you could reliably get a diamond graded exactly the same 10 times out of 10.
ie. there's no "eye-appeal" factor to grading diamonds.
oh, your right, grading diamonds is not foolproof, but no way can you compare disparity in grading coins to that of grading diamonds, no way.
K S