The toning craze and it's overriding effect on collectors and grades.

keets

Over the course of the last several months I've backed off some on purchasing coins. My attention has been devoted more to an obsessive inventory with the resulting liquidation sales ending up in the bank for this summer's ANA Convention in Pittsburgh. Don't get me wrong, I still make the occasional purchase. Yet, while looking at what I have, charting sales at various venues and checking in at the forum regularly, I've noticed what I perceive as a rather lopsided tendency towards "color" and it's relevance to any particular coin's overall grade.

While I understand the importance of eye appeal and how tone can impart true beauty to a coin, it ocurred to me this morning that it can also cause even experienced collectors to overlook other aspects of a coins quality which, when taken together on balance, are more important to the overall grade. Put another way, stunning color shouldn't be viewed as more significant than a weak strike, incidental rub/contact marks or uneven luster.

If you're not aware of the fact that I'm a Jefferson collector you haven't been paying attention for the last few years. Ironically, that seems to be where this glaring imbalance of surface characteristics is really starting to show itself. As the lowly Jefferson Nickel gets dusted off and popped out of albums or pulled out of rolls, it's ability to tone with startling color has been discovered. Unfortunately, the U.S. Mint's inability to strike the nickel planchets properly hasn't quite been identified with the same veracity. I notice collectors posting pictures of beautifully colored coins and getting slapped on the back with congratulatory enthusiasm for nickels which are a stretch at MS63.

Don't get me wrong, it happens with other series' also, I just have noticed it more with what I turn my focus to. I notice it with other coins at the larger auctions and with the higher grades, especially with MS66++ Classic Commemoratives. Evidentally, the graders are affected by this phenomenon along with us collectors. My thoughts are of what will happen down the road if/when a more balanced overall assessment is given to many of these coins.

Any thoughts or similar observations?? If I have my head up a hole tell me. Do you think that currently, with the really excited market phase we're in, attractive toning is given an unrealistic weight in overall grades?? Or is it finally receiving it's just due??

Thanks.

Al H.

nOoBiEeE

It's 8:30am as I am typing this so please bear with my run on sentences..

I too have been swept by the Jefferson collecting craze and to be honest, the toned coins are much more appealing to me. Though I have been buying raw coins only, I consider these toners quite beautiful and because of that, the grade takes a backseat to its eye appeal.

I would like to send the toners I have now in to get slabbed, mainly to have them safe in an enclosure, the grade itself doesn't really matter. When I like to look at the coins, I look at the coins and not the grade. From what I have seen thus far, there is a premium for these, especially if they are slabbed and regardless of the grade, they will sell.

So anyways, what I am basically saying is that a nicely toned coin, regardless of it's grade will catch someones eye. This same person will also appreciate a nice high grade MS68-70 coin as well but something lures him/her more to that sweet toner graded at MS60-64.

Time to eat breakfast,
Chris

FC57Coins

Keets - I agree with you wholeheartedly. If a coin is going to have overall eye appeal, strike, condition, and color should all be taken into consideration. Just because a coin has color does not necessarily make it a good coin. When I look at a coin with color I also look at it's grade, relative rarity as I understand it and overall eye appeal. When I do the calculation in my head I come up with a price that would be warranted for the coin and then make a decision as to whether to buy or not to buy. If I see an MS63 1881S Morgan with nice - but not fantastic color that's going for $100-$150, it might be a worthwhile coin if the coin has overall appeal. If the same coin is going for $700 as I saw many coins at the FUN show that fit this exact category - change the date to 1884O, 85O, or any other very common date, it just doesn't sit well in my mind.

Each collector should do the research on their particular area of interest and determine what's of interest to them, at what grade, and in what condition. Add color to the equation and generally you should come out with a range of coins in conditions and colors which would be both attractive, and a good investment of your hard earned money.

MadMonk

I'd say it's to each his own. I love beautifully toned coins. Depending on the individual collector, or grader, he is going to balance in his mind the overall grade, be it technical, or market , the coin deserves. I've never been much of a fan of the two personalities called Market and Technical, so my personal allowance on where the two meet or overlap is probably much tighter than some. I can forgive some aspects of the coin if it has beautiful color, and I mean beautiful. While subjective, there is still a point where the majority would agree any given coins color to be beautiful. This is tempered by a knowledge of the particular series, and how rare any particular date/mint combo concerning color.
I am not going to be comfortable laying down long green on a spectacular colored ms-65 if the surfaces are ms-63. That is too much of a bonus. A liner 64/65 is more acceptable, but then again, it goes back to a really decent knowledge of any particular series.
Don't forget, you have to think like a professional grader. Get that grading "sheet" in front of you and
give a number to each aspect of grade. You will probably see that eye appeal would typically tip the scales to a higher grade. I have a 1955 Franklin half in ms-65 FBL. without the color, it is a low 64. 1955 Franklins are typically white, or ugly dark toned. A rainbow 1955 is extremely tough, and "devoted" toned franklin collectors will go nut's over this coin. I've been offered over 400.00 for the coin. Would I pay that much for it, no way. So it has to be market graded, and it commands very strong money in the overall market. No common sense here Keets, add emotion to any venture in life, and this is the result, the ability to command disproportionate prices.

Fragmentum

At a Coin Show in Milwaukee this past weekend I noticed a lot of toned Jefferson's that were beautiful in color, many were very deeply colored in blues, greens, reds, etc.. Most of what I saw were also raw which caused me to ponder the phenomenon we call 'toned' issues. Indeed, looking at these through the tone trying to get a bearing on the actual quality of the strike as well was a bit unnerving.
I have only a few Jefferson's, some with iridescent rainbow toning that I will not part with, but I shy away from these deep toners cuz they just don't look good to me.
Example, I would prefer something in this type of color link or link
This looks good as well but I have seen much darker link
I guess one way to describe the look I would purchase and set back is an 'honest' looking coin in tone.
All in my humble opinion, of course....

291fifth

I am wondering if the toning "craze" is somewhat akin to the "never hinged" craze in stamp collecting. From my viewpoint the "never hinged" craze was promoted as a way to effectively eliminate a large portion of the existing supply of stamps from consideration. There were simply too many stamps around and the collector population was declining. I believe the same thing is happening to coin collecting right now. As I stated in an earlier post, I recently offered a group of classic commems to a local dealer. He looked the coins, all of which were in major brand slabs, and rejected all of them. He comment was that the market now wanted only "blast white" or "beautifully toned" commems...anything else was dead. My subsequent efforts in selling the coins have pretty much confirmed his comments.

The coin market is very, very picky right now. The much talked about boom in coin collecting as a result of the state quarters issues seems to only affect the very low end of the market.

windwhispersintrees

Buy the grade, not the paint job.
Worn condition cannot be improved, but color can be easily altered by time and/or deliberate intervention.

route66

fragmentum, I think your first link is a nice coin, the 2nd is what I would call ugly, and the 3rd would be nice without the spots, so that is ugly, too. That's my humble opinion on what I like. But everyone marches to a different drummer. Steve

dorkkarl

jeff's are the nbt.

K S

mgoodm3

I have a few toned coins, but I don't pay a huge premium for them. I would prefer a white 65 to a toned 63 as a general rule.

bushmaster8

<< <i>At a Coin Show in Milwaukee this past weekend I noticed a lot of toned Jefferson's that were beautiful in color, many were very deeply colored in blues, greens, reds, etc.. Most of what I saw were also raw which caused me to ponder the phenomenon we call 'toned' issues. Indeed, looking at these through the tone trying to get a bearing on the actual quality of the strike as well was a bit unnerving.
I have only a few Jefferson's, some with iridescent rainbow toning that I will not part with, but I shy away from these deep toners cuz they just don't look good to me.
... >>



Well at less than $1 each, I gladly purchased a handful of them!

Baley

toned coins are often more interesting to look at, more attractive to some, than higher graded, fully struck, mark free, brilliant coins.

the premium for eye appeal can be reflected in grade and/or price (the two are related and some folks even think that the value determines the grade, rather than visa versa.

it's not an either/or, but the market consensus pendulum does swing.

Eye appeal, though, never goes out of style.

keets

hey Baley

you seem to have misunderstood my original post as perhaps some others have. if you reread my second paragraph you might understand my meaning a bit more. my premise is simple-----lovely tone is oftentimes given pre-eminent consideration when the coin should be viewed in it's entire spectrum, including luster, contact marks and strike. i had no intention of this thread even resembling a pro/con tone/brilliant topic. with Jeffersons, as i pointed out, the lovely tone is generally brought to the forefront of a coin which has absolutely no step detail, flatness at the hair and ear and a pitted cheek with often impaired luster. my wonder is how a collector can overlook those other aspects for the sake of colorful tone or how a grading service can fail to account for them when holdering a coin, a coin which would be much lower----2-3 points----absent the color.

al h.

ccrdragon

I have to agree with Keets - look at the whole coin instead of just the color.

Fragmemtum - I like the bold colors that the proof sets from '56 to '65 produced on the nickels - the golds, blues and violets that some of the nickels have taken on are incredible!. The first and third ones that you pointed out have been cooked (in my belief) and are not the 'natural' results of storage of the coins. The second one has no luster and is just plain ugly to me.

ANACONDA

Sorry the answer is so long but the question is complicated and i am verbose. For those of you with short attention spans, please go on to the next thread.

The question is clearly one of the value of toning as a component of the overall assessments of a coin which generally consists of toning, luster, strike, marks and other factors which pale in comparison to the aformentioned. So, the question is

"what will happen down the road if/when a more balanced overall assessment is given to many of these (toned) coins. "

My answer:

Prices will go down for those items, assuming that "a more balanced overall assessment" turns out to be that incredibly toned coins are currently "overpriced".

The modern trend, though, is rising prices for incredibly toned coins relative to prices for other coins. The pendulum USUALLY swings both ways, however, there is no evidence that prices for incredibly toned coins has reached apex levels.

So, don't assume that the future inevitably has a correction in store for magnificently toned coins. Quite frankly, most of us who like toned coins (except for the really, really old collectors like GSAguy) would love to see significantly lower prices. I mean, would't it be cool if it were like the old days when you could go to a coin show and buy an incredibly toned commem and pay an extremely low premium for it?

Additional thoughts: No matter what you buy, there are risks. Things go up and things go down. Personally, i am a proponent of the idea that most market information is already digested and reflected in the "price" of things.

So, being able to predict what is going to go up and what is going to go down is virtually impossible because the things that make stuff go up and go down are things that have not occurred.

Regarding the case at hand, wickedly toned coins might continue to rise relative to other coins because some extremely wealthy collector might take a fancy to toned coins.

The general overall demand might go up because GSAguy might write a best seller on toned coins and include fabulous photographs of toned coins which might create additional demand.

Many other things could happen to increase values. OK, enough of that.

Another thought - when you die, you lose all of your money. Risking and losing some of that money now (or risking it and making money) while pursing enjoyment is the lesser of two evils, the other evil which is to buy no toned coins. The outcome (losing or making money) isn't as important as what the goal should be which is pursuing enjoyment.

One last random thought - the supply of incredibly toned coins is extremely low relative to the supply of white coins. It is not uncommon for toned coin lovers to go to a major show and see not even one monster to buy, regardless of cost.

I have looked at tens of thousands of coins in the past five years and the very best ones are quite frankly, extremely rare. I wish they weren't rare - color TVs aren't rare and i still prefer them to black and white TVs. (Even though color TVs are plentiful, i still prefer them. If toned coins were plentiful, i would still prefer them.)

If they weren't rare, that's all that i would buy. So, that may help explain the high prices of awesomely toned coins - they're rare, they're beautiful and there are quite a few people chasing a very limited of them.

adrian

puff

I've always enjoyed original attractively toned coins long before it was popular... To me originally toned coins have originality that white, (in the case of silver or nickel), coins don't have........

If you own a complete set of Walkers, Jeffersons, or Buffalos for instance and they are all white there's nothing different to me than the date on the coin..... Where as originally toned coins are more like a painters masterpiece, and no two are the same... Ergo my sig line coins.

MS68

Keets- Your opinion is apparently that toning is taken into consideration too highly when the graders at PCGS and NGC determine the grade of a coin. Please correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation of your original post. That is YOUR opinion. It is certainly not mine. You seem to be of the impression that strike and marks on a coin should be the major determining factors in the grade. Thought like that is ancient and you get classified in the coin business as a DINOSAUR for believing that way. Eye appeal is what sells today and because of that it has taken a larger role in the determination of a grade than it used to. Maybe one day your way of grading will be back in vogue but then maybe it will never go back to that style. To say that you think the grading services are wrong because they do not grade the way you like shows that you have not kept up with market trends. The demand for attactive coins is what has pushed the grading services to make eye appeal such a large component of the grade of a coin. Quite frankly, I see that even becoming greater in the future.

jbsteven

Very well said David.

keets

The modern trend, though, is rising prices for incredibly toned coins relative to prices for other coins. The pendulum USUALLY swings both ways, however, there is no evidence that prices for incredibly toned coins has reached apex levels.

hey Dave

apparently Adrian understood me a bit better than you did. i just perceive that today the pendelum has swung a bit to one side. i'm not of the "dinosaur" mentality that you suspect, i just try to look at things from all sides without weighing too heavily on one aspect of a coin. the trend has been building for over five years from my reckoning, where tone/color has become increasingly cherished by the majority of collectors with an inordinate percentage of a coins overall grade being determined by it. i thought it might be interesting discussion.

you might also consider that i'm not the only collector who wonders what will hapen when/if the pendelum swings back to center some. it doesn't make me bad, though you seem to internalize it that way. they're just thoughts and personal impressions, Dave. your knee jerk reaction causes me to wonder some things.

al h.

ANACONDA

I think the grading services have indeed taking toning into consideration in inconsistent ways.

MS68

Keets- I internalize very little. As far as my reaction beeing "knee jerk", what are you talking about? I totally disagree with your assessment of the market. For that I plead guilty. I don't think that grading has become unbalanced. I contend that it was completely unbalanced back when strike and marks were the primary factors in the grade of a coin. I don't look at this as a pendulum, but as a natural progression of the evolution of grading. Time will tell whether my way of thinking or yours turn out to be correct. In the meantime, I will keep paying "insanely high" prices for the best of the best Commems for my collection.

mrdq

<< <i>Buy the grade, not the paint job.
Worn condition cannot be improved, but color can be easily altered by time and/or deliberate intervention. >>



ya, what he said

CalGold

<< <i> Thought like that is ancient and you get classified in the coin business as a DINOSAUR for believing that way. >>



What is happening all too often now is that the services are giving out points for toning. Then the dealers are marking up the coins further for the toning, trying to sell the toning twice. David, you are too savvy to allow yourself to get played that way, but there are plenty of less experienced collectors out there, myself included, that lack your grading skills and experience.

I want and expect the grading services to protect me from over-grading. That requires them to give me an evaluation of the condition of the coin on as technical and objective a basis as possible. I do not want them deciding grade based upon value factors.* If a coin that would be graded MS64 based on grade limiting marks has beautiful toning, let them grade it 64, as they would if it were white. If the market thinks the toning merits an MS65, or MS66, or even a higher price, let the market decide that.

Well, I guess I'm a dinosaur then. I can just hear those dealers muttering under their breath, "Damn Dinosaur" when I hand them back a toned coin that has too many marks for my taste.

CG

*We all know the services are going to consider value anyway if for no other reason than their own aversion to risk on their guarantee -resulting in conservative grading on certain high value coins. And they need to consider the sight unseen market as well.

jbsteven

<< <i>What is happening all too often now is that the services are giving out points for toning >>



Eye appeal is part of grading a coin which is subjective.

MS68

CG- Like JB just said, "the eye appeal is part of grading a coin", just like strike and surface preservation are. I have seen many really nice 64 coins get bumped up in grade to 65 due to an exceptional strike. Grading a coin is subjective. There is no steadfast set of rules for grading. It is more a "feel" than anything scientific. You have to weigh all the components that go into the grade of a coin and take an average for ALL the factors. Just because a coin has the marks of a 63 does not mean that it can grade no higher. The Dinosaurs I run into, believe that is so. They end up buying all the technically perfect, zero eye appeal coins out there that they think they just ripped. If that is your bag, Peace be with you. I would rather have a coin with a few flaws that has incredible eye appeal. From my vast experience selling such coins I can tell you that they don't stay in inventory very long.

stman

<< <i>Well, I guess I'm a dinosaur then. I can just hear those dealers muttering under their breath, "Damn Dinosaur" when I hand them back a toned coin that has too many marks for my taste. >>



It's OK Calgold. You'll get used to it. Among other names they call us dumb collectors. Bottom line.... it's our money and if we miss a great coin once in a while because it's been given the "Double Bump" for grade, eye-appeal, and price, so be it.

Clankeye

<< <i>They end up buying all the technically perfect, zero eye appeal coins out there that they think they just ripped. >>



At the Portland ANA I came across a Washington Carver commem graded NGC 67. Technically, it may have made the grade, but I had my doubts. But, there was absolutely nothing standout about the coin. The eye appeal was average at best. It had no toning to make it stand out from other coins, nor was it unusually lustrous or boldly struck.

A Carver in 67 is a very scarce coin. The premium you pay for that grade is substantial. I would be more comfortable paying the big bucks for a coin that might technically grade 66 but had outstanding eye appeal. And when I say "outstanding" I mean way above average. I saw a few coins like that in Portland and I was reminded that they kind of inhabit a world all their own.

This Carver--I think it's going to sit there for a long time at the price offered. As the market develops I see no way that you are going to be able to seperate electric eye appeal coins from higher grades. It has and will become even more of a component in the grading game.

Where the equation gets sticky is with the coins that are not "no-brainer" monster coins. And I think that may have been more the area that Keets may have been addressing in his intial post. I would not presume to speak for him though.

Clankeye

Clankeye

CalGold

<< <i> I would rather have a coin with a few flaws that has incredible eye appeal. From my vast experience selling such coins I can tell you that they don't stay in inventory very long. >>



David,

I do not disagree with this. My point is that the choice of an eye appealing 64 over a boring 65, and the premium paid for the 64, should be made on the bourse floor not in the grading room.

CG

mojorizn

I believe the current tendency to overgrade due to toning is akin to the "it's rare, it's a squeaker, go ahead and give it the MS65" phenomena. The thinking behind this is that a naturally toned coin should support a higher ask price because of the argument that so many "blast white" coins are that way because they've been cleaned/whizzed over time.

In some ways, I understand this way of thinking. When I look for coins for my raw set (I'm a Buffalo collector for the most part), I look for lightly toned coins. My "dinosaur" way of thinking tells me that some toning and no telltale hairlines attests to the fact that the coin's not been played with over its lifetime.

Will I pay a premium for an original coin that is attractively toned? Yes. Does it grade higher than a technically graded, untoned coin? No.

Hopefully, this (my) way of thinking will prevail and , when the pendulum inevitably swings the other way, I won't take a bath!



My opinion, my preference. My hobby, not my profession.

Mojo

michael

i do not know all series but for coins that are wildly toned to greatly toned to monster toned and have technical merits that are really choice to gem to superb gem

in proof and business strike and that have amazing eye appeAL

in series like indian cents
half cents and large cents
three cent nicks in proof
lib nicks
barber and seated coinage
walkers
buffs
certain early commems

i guess the list can go on and on but

many coins within these series as per the ABOVE with great toning,technical merits and eye appeal are anywhere from totally great undervalued to good values!


michael

MS68

CG- Your point that an eye appealing 64 should be left in the holder is taken but not necessarily agreed to. If the appeal quotient of the coin has already been taken into consideration and the TOTAL grade of the coin is a 64 then I agree that the coin should remain in a 64 holder. But if you are saying that the strike and surface preservation of a coin ammount to solid 64 status and the eye appeal is at least high end 65 then the coin will get graded as a 65. This is just the reality of the system. Like it or not. I am not here to debate this issue, only to try to explain how it works. I just wish I wasn't so poor at trying to get across my point. My skills as an educator are lacking to say the least.

FrattLaw

<< <i>I want and expect the grading services to protect me from over-grading. >>



Oh, now that might be a very costly and dangerous expectation. Even PCGS overgrades its coins on occasion. Whether you're a technical "dinosaur" or a new whiz kid eye appeal grader, the fundamentals remain the same to grading, just realize that some give a bump for color and some don't. And as Stman pointed out some coins will get a double or triple bump in price because of color.

Should a PR66 DCAM be worth more then a non cameo PR67? Sure the cameo effect just makes the coin more attractive even though technically it's not as well struck or has more problems -- just as toning might.

Michael

RGL

We all can be suckers for wonderously toned coins, third-party grading services included. Color can hide a lot and boost an otherwise undeserving coin to a lofty grade. That said, you still must retain your technical eye when assessing a killer toner -- strike, marks, luster, etc. A wonderously toned coin may deserve a 1 point bump given great eye appeal, but 2 or more is a stretch IMHO. Not to make a blanket statement, I concede there may some very scarce specimens on which the toning and eye appeal is so amazing, that technical grade is secondary. These are the coins that bring moon money... Having built a couple of blast white Registry sets, I must concede I now appreciate and seek toned coins more than I once did...

solid

The following coin is one some of you may remember, and it illustrates Keet's point
perfectly.



It is a 1963-D graded MS66, then and now pop 1/0.

There was a discussion regarding this coin as the eBay auction was taking place,
and nearly everyone stated that it appeared to be overgraded. "Look at the gash
on the jaw" and "See the HUGE hit on the nose" were typical comments.

I do believe this coin got "the bump" at PCGS. Still, I stepped up and bought it and
am happy to own it today.

Believe me, I thought long and hard before bidding as I am not one to just throw money
away. I considered the following factors in making my decision.

1) This date is rare in Full Steps. There are 11 coins total graded FS (2 63's, 7 64's and
2 65's). An MS65FS coin would go for thousands more than I would care to spend on one.

2) The coin obviously has great color. In my experience, Jeffersons that are attractively
toned on both sides and free from carbon spots are just not very common!

3) I figured that the coin must be lustrous, which indeed proved correct once I had it in hand.

4) Would I ever find a 63-D that I liked better?

5) It is my birth year, so a little bit of sentiment was thrown in.

All that said, I would have much preferred to buy this coin as an MS65 for much less! Being
a pop 1/0 coin really sent it up.

So Keets, for right or wrong, I do agree with your premise that the services will sometimes
bump a coin due to the toning. In this particular case, I overlooked that fact!

Ken

Bear

All I can say is that I have a couple of toned Commems that MS-68 dont have.

He cant have them, cause I have them hidden.

MS68

Bear- I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Next Long Beach show, how about it?

NYCcollector

I agree with Keets. Sure, grading always has some subjectivity to it, and eye-appeal has historically been a factor. But at least technical grading criteria, like strike and hits, are reasonably subject to widespread consensus. Toning is much more subjective. One person's monster-toned coin might be just plain ugly or mottled to someone else.

Bear

MS-68, might just agree to that.

FrattLaw

Hey Ken -- glad you like that one. I found it with a dozen or so others in my local dealer's shop and encouraged him to ship it off to PCGS for grading and to Dick (greattoning) to put it up on Ebay for sale. And I can truly say there really aren't many Jeffs more pretty than that one! I too was surprised by the grade though.

I have now converted a brick and mortar shop owner to a Ebay consignor. He now asks me all the time if he should send this coin or that coin to PCGS for grading. He just got a beautifully toned ASE that'll be up on Ebay shortly.

Michael

CalGold

<< <i>A Carver in 67 is a very scarce coin. The premium you pay for that grade is substantial. I would be more comfortable paying the big bucks for a coin that might technically grade 66 but had outstanding eye appeal >>



As would I.* I think the differences in the opinions expressed here are subtle in reality, and perhaps represent a difference between those who accept and perhaps relish the reality of market grading, because they are equipped to thrive in that arena, and us dinosaurs who have not yet evolved into the David Schweitzs of the world and therefore wax nostalgic for more technical standards.

Consider the following. Lets say that a Carver gets into a 67 holder because of color-- in other words if it was white, it would have been a 66 but it was bumped a point in the grading room. What happens to its price then? Is it worth a 67 price plus a premium for color? Or is it worth only a 66 price, plus a premium for color – recognizing that the premium for color might bring it to the 67 price or above?**

Now if the color is so spectacular that the toning premium will obliterate grade differentiation any way, it might not matter much (eg. the $69K Oregon Trails). But assume that this Carver in 67 does not merit that rarified distinction.

So, if you are offered a colorful Carver in a 67 holder what do you do? Pass and buy a 66? Maybe that is the safest answer for many of us who find it hard enough to understand technical grades and market values for toned coins, without trying to figure all of the permutations that come into play when high grades and great toning mix..


CG

Edited to Add the following footnotes:

*See also, Monsterman's comments at Link 1

**See also, Sunnywood and Gemtone's discussion at Link 2

keets

whoever it was that posted about a grade bump at the point of holdering and a price bump at the point of sale seems to have summed up my thoughts well, and perhaps that's just a quick synopsis of the current state of the hobby with regards to market grading. sadly, as a result of raising this topic within a thread, i've been pigeon-holed as a collector who is myopically focused on average looking, technically graded coins which will languish in my collection and ultimately cause me financial hardship. but.............so much for errant stereotypes!!!

i find it ironic that Mr. Schwietz came out swinging, or at least poised in a defensive posture. i had the oppurtunity to chat with him briefly at the past F.U.N. Show about classic commems and found the time well spent and edifying.

al h.

mdwoods

Toning will often hide marks that are obvious on blast white coins. That is one reason, perhaps for a grade bump. More importantly, very attractive toning adds eye appeal. I don't see that trend swinging back the other way towards technical grading. If it did, those holding expensive toners that are market graded rather than technically graded would lose. And there is only so much attractive toning can do to affect the grade. Of course you already knew that.

Stuart

Part of my enjoyment in searching through a bunch of slabbed coins is trying to cherry-pick the premium quality coins out of the bunch. I like to find coins with great eye appeal in perhaps moderately priced collector grades. I'll almost always pick out a premium quality MS-64 over any MS-65 because it may look as nice, or even better, usually at a lower price.

I prefer that the grading services assign the coin a technically accurate grade (within a point of accuracy) and let the marketplace subjectively assign a market value to the coin. This is where alot of the fun negotiation and interesting dealmaking occurs. It's part of closing the right deal for the right coin -- which is a very personal and subjective decision.

I agree that attractive toning adds value to the coin. But, I personally draw the line by not wanting to spend more than 10-15% above the typical price for the coin for attractive toning. I choose not to purchase coins which sell for many multiples of what their price would be with either no toning or average attractive toning. This is probably OK to do if you are a long-term collector who wants to hold onto these coins (as long as their coloration is stable) -- but I feel it's a very risky long-term hold & sell strategy.

mdwoods

I'm not endorsing or condemning market grading or technical grading. It's good that collectors know that both exist and what the differences are, and it explains why certain coins are graded the way they are. I agree, I'd rather have a gorgeous 64 than a so-so looking 65 and it's a treat to find one and get a nicer coin at a better price.

MS68

Keets- I apologize for attacking your post, but you were the unfortunate recipient of my wrath for all the bashing I have gotten on this forum and the one across the street for my "insane purchase" of the Oregon at the Superior sale. In the title of your post is the phrase "toning craze". Look in the dictionary under "craze" and you might understand why your thread was the one that I decided to address. I have been sitting back reading all about how grading "should be" for the few years I have been monitoring this board. Instead of complaining about why you don't like today's standards, why not just learn to adapt to them? I would be more than happy to help out Mark Feld and anyone else that holds a grading seminar to try and teach anyone that was interested to learn to grade to today's standards. The fact that I can go out and pay $69,000 for Oregon Commems is due to my ability to adapt to today's grading standards. Not that I am advising anyone else to pay that much. I don't want the competition. It is bad enough as it is. I feel that any of you that decide to take the time to learn todays standards will come to the conclusion that it is not as arbitrary as it first appears, and may even come to embrace it. It is always easy to bash what you don't understand. Much more complicated to take the time to see things from the other side of the fence.

wondercoin

This has been a fun thread to read

"Craze" is, of course, the word that led to much of the debate here, as that word (by its very definition) suggests irrational behavior.

I personally view these incredibly toned coins as "art" - "natural art" if you will (and let's keep the focus to original toned coins to not get off point). So, the issue then becomes what price do you attach to the greatest artistic specimens out there? Take the case of that 1926 Oregon that "MS68" from our boards just outbid Coingame2000 on and paid $69,000 for. As the pop 1 PCGS-MS68 (the minimum upgrade that coin will likely receive even under the strictest of grading today), you can make a case that the coin has a value upwards of $25,000 - $30,000 in todays market even for an "offwhite" example. So, the "premium" for color, if you will, is at best $40,000 and perhaps WAY less if the coin were to grade MS69 at PCGS or NGC, as it appears the coin has a shot to do.

Now, with respect to this $20k-$40k premium for color - the question becomes is this additional payment an irrational sum of money? Now, I believe, here is where it comes down to ones own assessment on what exactly is being auctioned off here. To the fellow who believes nice white coins are worth the same as pretty toned coins - by all means this $20k - $40k extra is a "craze". But, to the collector who views these special coins as "works of art", this $20k - $40k is "pocket change". After all, what does a Picasso sell for? $50,000,000?? What is $20k - $40k premium for one of the most spectacularly toned Commems on the planet? If the Oregon is viewed as a "work of art", the numismatist who is "into" "coin art" vs. the various other forms of "art" that sell for huge money at auction and in art galleries is tickled pink to buy the "coin art" for $20k or $40k. I personally have no problem with viewing the Oregon as a numismatic work of art and attaching a value based upon that premise. While others may take the narrower (and perhaps proper?) approach that nice white coins are worth the same as pretty toned ones and the concept of a premium for natural numismatic art is nothing more than a "craze".

Wondercoin

Clankeye

Calgold--

I will answer simply that I think if a Carver technically graded 66 and got into a 67 holder for color, then that coin would be a very, very scarce coin by nature of it's eye appeal and would be deserving of a premium that properly reflected that.

And what would be the proper premium? The market would decide.



Clankeye

CalGold

<< <i>As the pop 1 PCGS-MS68 (the minimum upgrade that coin will likely receive even under the strictest of grading today), you can make a case that the coin has a value upwards of $25,000 - $30,000 in todays market even for an "offwhite" example. So, the "premium" for color, if you will, is at best $40,000 and perhaps WAY less if the coin were to grade MS69 at PCGS or NGC, as it appears the coin has a shot to do. >>



If the coin will achieve an MS68 or 69 grade due in large part to its toning, then you are proving the point that by factoring toning into the grade, there is a double premium for toning. You cannot say that the toning premium is $40K if a good portion of its $25-30K "grade" value is attributable to its toning. In other words, if based on all other factors this is an $1,700 ms67 coin, adding $25-30K of value by bumping it to MS68 or 69 based on toning is a toning premium, and then adding another $40K to the market value is just an extension of that premium.

By the way, I am not questioning the value of that coin or the sagacity of those willing to pay the price. The price in this case was established by competitive bids by top players in the field. I agree that the term "craze" in the title of this thread was a poor choice of words by Keets, as it has a pejorative connotation.


CG

wondercoin

CG: If the coin grades MS69 or MS69* and is worth $75,000++ even as a "pretty" coin, then there was "0" factored into the purchase price - right?

Eye appeal is a component of the grade of a coin. In addition, where the eye appeal creates "world class numismatic art", perhaps a "double premium" is not only the case as you suggest, but totally warranted. After all, some believe world class numismatic art is every bit deserving of a huge premium separate and apart from the grade on the holder and I see nothing wrong with that.

Wondercoin

jbsteven

what it all comes down to is: What is someone WILLING to pay for a coin? In this case 2 people bid on a coin and 1 person came away with a cool coin that he will be proud of.

Isn't that what coin collecting is really all about? Buying something you LIKE.

I have come to change my viewpoint on coins and their worth. If I am willing to pay XXXX for a coin and I LIKE it then that is all that matters to me. Sometimes I like coins and buy them for way more than what most people would say they are worth TO THEM but those are the coins I like.

just my opinions.

Nysoto

A point or two added to a blast white MS65 coin gives great financial incentive to intentionally "naturally tone" the coin. An old Wayte Raymond album or kraft envelope, maybe throw in a couple of matches for additional sulfur to speed up the process. You could create "World Class Numismatic Art" without the requirement of being a skilled engraver.

There are more toned coins now than ever. With financial incentives to add a couple of grading points for color, what will coins look like ten years from now? Will "todays standards" of grading change?