CG- Are you implying that this coin I purchased is a 67 coin that will only get bumped up due to its color? The coin is currently in a first generation PCGS holder which was graded by PCGS in early 1987. They did not grade many if any coins 68 at that time as they had not seen enough coins to feel comfortable enough to to give out that lofty grade. The logic of not handing out lofty grades at that time made sense as how did they know that they were grading the nicest coins out there and what room would they have had left for higher grades if they used up 68's for coins that may not have been the best. As opposed to today when they have likey seen a large percentage of the nicest coins, they feel far more comfortable, and rightfully so, about using the entire spectrum of the grading standard. This lengthly diatribe is my attempt to explain to you that this Oregon is already a technical 68 with the most increbible color that may very likely bump it up to the 69 grade by virtue of it being the best out there that anyone has ever seen. Nicer even than the Boone I made in 69 last year.
Nysoto: One thing is for certain -- things will continue to change. Grading standards will evolve and people's tastes will contiue to change and have an impact on the coin market.
Some of today's trends may become niche markets of the future, while others will stay in the mainstream. That's the way things have historically worked, and probably how they will continue to be in the future.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
"Nicer even than the Boone I made in 69 last year."
Dave: I am afraid now you've crossed the line into sheer exaggeration (which world class numismatic art can often do to ones mind). Go take another look at your Boone - that is your coolest Commem
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Dave: I understand that the Oregon is a two-sided monster toned specimen, as opposed to the Boone which is a one-sided color coin. But, I think you will agree that the obverse of the PCGS-MS69 Boone is the coolest, wildest, most spectacular "side" of a Commem you have yet to come across. To me, that is why the Boone gets the nod - yes, both sides considered the Oregon might be preferred to many, but, for sheer beauty and amazement, the one side of the Boone (facing up in the PCGS holder) wins
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>CG- Are you implying that this coin I purchased is a 67 coin that will only get bumped up due to its color? >>
David,
No such implication was intended. If you say it is technically a 68 or better, I belive you. I was merely proferring an exemplar to show that there are "two sides of the coin" so to speak when it comes to figuring what part of a coin's value is attriubutable to a premium for toning, since toning is factored into the grade.
..........and now it seems some have centered on my word choice, particularly craze. i would ask that you reconsider and for a moment ponder the internal processes which take place when you first fix your gaze upon a particularly lovely coin. the excitement which causes you to begin in earnest your quest to add that coin to your collection might be one of quiet concentration, but all the same, is craze all that descriptively wrong?? i also think the way that more and more collectors have been competing against each other for the nicer material borders on a realistic interpretation of the word. it's not a negative thing, just a mental process where our emotions become involved with our logic. to that end, consider what happens with otherwise rational, intelligent men in the presence of an unknown and exceptionally beautiful woman.....................
I had always been under the impression that the best grade that a coin could ever receive would be the grade it would have if graded the day it was minted. But now it seems that coins are more like fine scotch, if you age it long enough in a container, you may improve it, granted that you are willing to wait and risk losing the whole batch.
All things equal (assume unchanging grading standards), coins now not only become more valuable with age, but also may increase in grade with age? Is this phenomenon only limited to "classic" coins, or can modern coins also participate?
So if I have a coin is technically graded MS 68 and it then tones to have colors to warrant the term of "numismatic art" should it now be an MS 69?
What if the coin is lock-on white MS 69 and then tones to the same degree. Where is the bump to MS70 for the improved eye-appeal?
Edsondl- If eye appeal is a large part of what makes up the entire grade, which it is, and a coin acquires beautiful toning over the years so that it now looks nicer than the day it was minted, why do you have a problem with the coin being recognized as such?
Dave is right on in his comments. He is just explaining the waythe market is and why it is that way. Beautiful toning certainly adds to a coins overall grade. Just as ugly toning can limit the grade. Also, toning can hide marks that would be seen easily on a blast white coin. Remember, most coins are not micro-inspected with a glass when they are graded. If attractive toning makes marks less visible, then they don't affect the grade as much.
Market grading is really the way coins should have been graded in the past. Eye appeal is king. It is a fact of the coin world and collectors simply should know that this is the way things are done. When it comes down to it, your personal inspection will determine whether or not you buy a coin or agree with the grade assigned.
I don't have any problem with someone paying whatever amount they wish to own what they consider a beautiful coin. In this hobby, any coin that someone buys must first and foremost be for their own enjoyment.
I just wonder about the transient and subjective nature of toning and grading based largely on toning. If everyone complains about the "consistancy" of the grades that they receive from PCGS and in the next breath demand one or two point bumps for improved "eye-appeal" of a colored coin over a lustrous white coin, what do people actually want? "Eye-appeal" is very subjective and I suspect that different graders, perhaps based on age or upbringing in numismatics, view that term slightly differently. It is much easier to objectively discuss contact marks, strike or even luster.
I just feel, as do others who posted above, that negotiation for color shoould be made in the determining the price, not as much for the grade.
I just feel, as do others who posted above, that negotiation for color shoould be made in the determining the price, not as much for the grade.
There is certainly nothing wrong with feeling that way as long as you realize the reality of the coin market is not technical but market grading. If you are aware of that, you can look at coins the way you want.
Edsondl- You state that eye appeal is subjective. So is the way you determine the degree and placement of marks on a coin. So is the way you determine the depth and degree of luster. Even something that would seem cut and dry like strike will have differences of opinion. Each of these are components that make up the entire grade and the way they are interpreted are different for each person. That is why all coins are looked at by a minumum of three graders at the two leading services and the average grade is used most often. It is what gives us the relatively decent consistency we have from these two leading third party services (no wise cracks here Russ, lets see you do a better job!) Toning is just part of the eye appeal equation of the grade. It can not bump up MS67 coins to MS69 coins. Monster color and luster may bump up a nice 62 coin to a 64 because the "MS70 eye appeal" will have more weight at this level because of the difference from 62 to 70. Not a very difficult concept when you think about it. You just can't take eye appeal out of the equation, it is the primary factor in market grading. Without it you have coins in the same technical grade that sell for one hundred times what another may sell for. That makes far less sense to me than the current system.
I thank you for taking the time to carefully explain how grading is not the "absolute" scale that many are lead to believe when they first start participating in this hobby. It would certainly make it easier if grading was a science rather than an art. I think that that your very helpful and insightful commentary also underscores why price guides are merely guides and that sight-unseen transactions in "investment" numismatics will never be possible. I still think that it is "counter-intuitive" that a coin can actually increase in grade with time, but I am sure that shortly I will come to accept it (because it is the way grading actually works, as you and other more-experienced collectors attest) and be able to use the information to help me better enjoy the hobby.
Whether you folks agree with the concept of "market grading" or not and, whether you would pay (many) multiples of published bid levels for certain wildly toned coins or not, I think you would be wise to read and re-read the words of MS68/Dave with an open mind.
You do not need to agree with him (heck, I don't always agree with him and I certainly wouldn't have paid more than $68,999 for that Oregon) in order to learn from him and his real life market experience.
I consider myself more of an old-time, dinosaur, technical grader but, being involved in the business, I must deal with and accept the reality of the marketplace. It's fine to have your own standards, but, it sure doesn't hurt to at least be aware of and understand the standards of the major grading services and other expert graders, whether they be dealers or non-dealers.
I consider myself more of an old-time, dinosaur, technical grader but, being involved in the business, I must deal with and accept the reality of the marketplace. It's fine to have your own standards, but, it sure doesn't hurt to at least be aware of and understand the standards of the major grading services and other expert graders, whether they be dealers or non-dealers. >>
Very well said.
We each have our own opinions of what constitutes quality of a given level and proceed in our decisions on this basis. But it is imperative to understand the ac- tual market or we'll still misvalue coins.
Obviously it would be great to have Coinguy1's grasp of grading even if it really were to make one a dinosaur.
All I can think of is that 70 '63 Lincoln and how the price evaporated. Color for the sake of color is pretty but we are talking about nutso money if you are going to pay 20-40k for color. Of course, if you have nutso money and this floats your boat, who am I to take anybody's fun away?
More and more I like filling my Dansco's with real pretty coins that look great to me. My slabbed coins are overpriced and this market is cruisin' for a bruisin'
The toning "craze" is still alive and well since this thread was created. Many of the participants are not around to provide retrospective comments, yet perhaps @Maywood and @wondercoin and @MFeld (and other current forum members) would add their comments regarding how toning impacts grading. The market preferences continue. From reading this thread, not much has changed, eh?
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@Catbert said:
ALERT - 20 YEAR OLD THREAD RESURRECTION!
The toning "craze" is still alive and well since this thread was created. Many of the participants are not around to provide retrospective comments, yet perhaps @Maywood and @wondercoin and @MFeld (and other current forum members) would add their comments regarding how toning impacts grading. The market preferences continue. From reading this thread, not much has changed, eh?
Thank you for bringing this thread back - it was an interesting and enjoyable read. As I was reading the various posts, I was wondering whether I’d posted to the tread, back then and thinking to myself forum member “MS68” sure knows his stuff. Then sure enough, I found my post, in which I commented:
“ Whether you folks agree with the concept of "market grading" or not and, whether you would pay (many) multiples of published bid levels for certain wildly toned coins or not, I think you would be wise to read and re-read the words of MS68/Dave with an open mind.
You do not need to agree with him (heck, I don't always agree with him and I certainly wouldn't have paid more than $68,999 for that Oregon) in order to learn from him and his real life market experience.
I consider myself more of an old-time, dinosaur, technical grader but, being involved in the business, I must deal with and accept the reality of the marketplace. It's fine to have your own standards, but, it sure doesn't hurt to at least be aware of and understand the standards of the major grading services and other expert graders, whether they be dealers or non-dealers.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Apparently much like our ears, emoticons grow larger with time.
I think the OP raises a good point and nothing better than a complete coin with all of the aspects solid even when toning is your thing.
Here’s an example of a Jeff of mine that would be nothing to write home about whatsoever if not for the color but if it had a hammered strike it would have cost even more.
@291fifth said:
He comment was that the market now wanted only "blast white" or "beautifully toned" commems...anything else was dead. My subsequent efforts in selling the coins have pretty much confirmed his comments.
The coin market is very, very picky right now. The much talked about boom in coin collecting as a result of the state quarters issues seems to only affect the very low end of the market.
This seems so true as two camps have seemingly emerged. White and color toned. Gold/brown lightly toned silver is not wanted. Nor is silver with brown or blackish album rim toning desired much. Classics with original "thick skin" seems out as well. I see a bunch of this stuff going at a discount.
For full disclosure I've been in the solid white camp since day 1. Toning is rust to me, but to each their own. I just wonder how these super gem deeply toned pieces can even be honestly graded when the toning must be impeding the view?
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I didn’t read all of the responses (and got a good laugh out of the giant emojis), but the concerns raised initially two decades ago still seem well-founded.
I collect fully toned 32-64 Washington quarters and on multiple occasions I’ve come across coins in 67 holders that, thanks to high-res photography, I can see George has a beaten up cheek barely worthy of a technical 65.
The market grading of toned coins is very real, and so 1) there’s an opportunity to cherry-pick for quality by finding coins with the right color and technical merits and 2) there is a use case for CAC in helping buyers do this.
Comments
Some of today's trends may become niche markets of the future, while others will stay in the mainstream. That's the way things have historically worked, and probably how they will continue to be in the future.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Dave: I am afraid now you've crossed the line into sheer exaggeration (which world class numismatic art can often do to ones mind). Go take another look at your Boone - that is your coolest Commem
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
<< <i>CG- Are you implying that this coin I purchased is a 67 coin that will only get bumped up due to its color? >>
David,
No such implication was intended. If you say it is technically a 68 or better, I belive you. I was merely proferring an exemplar to show that there are "two sides of the coin" so to speak when it comes to figuring what part of a coin's value is attriubutable to a premium for toning, since toning is factored into the grade.
CG
al h.
All things equal (assume unchanging grading standards), coins now not only become more valuable with age, but also may increase in grade with age? Is this phenomenon only limited to "classic" coins, or can modern coins also participate?
So if I have a coin is technically graded MS 68 and it then tones to have colors to warrant the term of "numismatic art" should it now be an MS 69?
What if the coin is lock-on white MS 69 and then tones to the same degree. Where is the bump to MS70 for the improved eye-appeal?
Market grading is really the way coins should have been graded in the past. Eye appeal is king. It is a fact of the coin world and collectors simply should know that this is the way things are done. When it comes down to it, your personal inspection will determine whether or not you buy a coin or agree with the grade assigned.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
I just wonder about the transient and subjective nature of toning and grading based largely on toning. If everyone complains about the "consistancy" of the grades that they receive from PCGS and in the next breath demand one or two point bumps for improved "eye-appeal" of a colored coin over a lustrous white coin, what do people actually want? "Eye-appeal" is very subjective and I suspect that different graders, perhaps based on age or upbringing in numismatics, view that term slightly differently. It is much easier to objectively discuss contact marks, strike or even luster.
I just feel, as do others who posted above, that negotiation for color shoould be made in the determining the price, not as much for the grade.
There is certainly nothing wrong with feeling that way as long as you realize the reality of the coin market is not technical but market grading. If you are aware of that, you can look at coins the way you want.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
I thank you for taking the time to carefully explain how grading is not the "absolute" scale that many are lead to believe when they first start participating in this hobby. It would certainly make it easier if grading was a science rather than an art. I think that that your very helpful and insightful commentary also underscores why price guides are merely guides and that sight-unseen transactions in "investment" numismatics will never be possible. I still think that it is "counter-intuitive" that a coin can actually increase in grade with time, but I am sure that shortly I will come to accept it (because it is the way grading actually works, as you and other more-experienced collectors attest) and be able to use the information to help me better enjoy the hobby.
You do not need to agree with him (heck, I don't always agree with him and I certainly wouldn't have paid more than $68,999 for that Oregon
I consider myself more of an old-time, dinosaur, technical grader but, being involved in the business, I must deal with and accept the reality of the marketplace. It's fine to have your own standards, but, it sure doesn't hurt to at least be aware of and understand the standards of the major grading services and other expert graders, whether they be dealers or non-dealers.
i think david (( ms68)) has hit the mark really well in all of his statements on this thread
michael
<< <i>
I consider myself more of an old-time, dinosaur, technical grader but, being involved in the business, I must deal with and accept the reality of the marketplace. It's fine to have your own standards, but, it sure doesn't hurt to at least be aware of and understand the standards of the major grading services and other expert graders, whether they be dealers or non-dealers. >>
Very well said.
We each have our own opinions of what constitutes quality of a given level and
proceed in our decisions on this basis. But it is imperative to understand the ac-
tual market or we'll still misvalue coins.
Obviously it would be great to have Coinguy1's grasp of grading even if it really
were to make one a dinosaur.
More and more I like filling my Dansco's with real pretty coins that look great to me. My slabbed coins are overpriced and this market is cruisin' for a bruisin'
al h.
ALERT - 20 YEAR OLD THREAD RESURRECTION!
The toning "craze" is still alive and well since this thread was created. Many of the participants are not around to provide retrospective comments, yet perhaps @Maywood and @wondercoin and @MFeld (and other current forum members) would add their comments regarding how toning impacts grading. The market preferences continue. From reading this thread, not much has changed, eh?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Thank you for bringing this thread back - it was an interesting and enjoyable read. As I was reading the various posts, I was wondering whether I’d posted to the tread, back then and thinking to myself forum member “MS68” sure knows his stuff. Then sure enough, I found my post, in which I commented:
“ Whether you folks agree with the concept of "market grading" or not and, whether you would pay (many) multiples of published bid levels for certain wildly toned coins or not, I think you would be wise to read and re-read the words of MS68/Dave with an open mind.
You do not need to agree with him (heck, I don't always agree with him and I certainly wouldn't have paid more than $68,999 for that Oregon) in order to learn from him and his real life market experience.
I consider myself more of an old-time, dinosaur, technical grader but, being involved in the business, I must deal with and accept the reality of the marketplace. It's fine to have your own standards, but, it sure doesn't hurt to at least be aware of and understand the standards of the major grading services and other expert graders, whether they be dealers or non-dealers.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Apparently much like our ears, emoticons grow larger with time.
I think the OP raises a good point and nothing better than a complete coin with all of the aspects solid even when toning is your thing.
Here’s an example of a Jeff of mine that would be nothing to write home about whatsoever if not for the color but if it had a hammered strike it would have cost even more.
This seems so true as two camps have seemingly emerged. White and color toned. Gold/brown lightly toned silver is not wanted. Nor is silver with brown or blackish album rim toning desired much. Classics with original "thick skin" seems out as well. I see a bunch of this stuff going at a discount.
For full disclosure I've been in the solid white camp since day 1. Toning is rust to me, but to each their own. I just wonder how these super gem deeply toned pieces can even be honestly graded when the toning must be impeding the view?
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I didn’t read all of the responses (and got a good laugh out of the giant emojis), but the concerns raised initially two decades ago still seem well-founded.
I collect fully toned 32-64 Washington quarters and on multiple occasions I’ve come across coins in 67 holders that, thanks to high-res photography, I can see George has a beaten up cheek barely worthy of a technical 65.
The market grading of toned coins is very real, and so 1) there’s an opportunity to cherry-pick for quality by finding coins with the right color and technical merits and 2) there is a use case for CAC in helping buyers do this.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.