Thoughts on the recent ANA grading seminar.
mdwoods
Posts: 5,546 ✭✭✭
Last Tuesday-Thursday I had the opportunity to take the ANA grading seminar. I must say, in my opinion, that it was very worthwhile and I came away with a ton of new knowledge about grading and "market grading" in particular.
I found out that I cannot grade WLHs to save my butt. The difference betweeen weakly struck mint state coins and AU58s escaped my detection almost every time. When you factor in the fact that a technically graded AU58 can be market graded as a MS62, it becomes even more difficult, for me anyway.
We got to see a lot of problem coins, cleaned, whizzed, polished, etc, and that was a big plus. I could see the cleaning most of the time, but some of the whizzed coins were very difficult for me to detect.
There were probably 800 or more coins we got to see as well as a bunch of slides the first day. There were usually 3 to 4 experts available to discuss issues on any of the coins in the ANA Grading Set, which were the coins we got to see.
I did well on a few series, and pitifully on others. I'm not disappointed by finding myself lacking in many or most series, I now know which ones I need to concentrate on. Many I won't bother with too much because I simply don't have the interest or time to become "good" in those series.
There were a few other forum members in the class who I hope will also give their impressions. I got the feeling that, overall, most felt the class was worthwhile and most took full advantage of the time to view coins and ask questions. It was nice to have other people to disuss opinions with about particular coins. Some were novices, others had quite a bit of experience. I recommend the class to any who want to improve their skills and meet new people.
I found out that I cannot grade WLHs to save my butt. The difference betweeen weakly struck mint state coins and AU58s escaped my detection almost every time. When you factor in the fact that a technically graded AU58 can be market graded as a MS62, it becomes even more difficult, for me anyway.
We got to see a lot of problem coins, cleaned, whizzed, polished, etc, and that was a big plus. I could see the cleaning most of the time, but some of the whizzed coins were very difficult for me to detect.
There were probably 800 or more coins we got to see as well as a bunch of slides the first day. There were usually 3 to 4 experts available to discuss issues on any of the coins in the ANA Grading Set, which were the coins we got to see.
I did well on a few series, and pitifully on others. I'm not disappointed by finding myself lacking in many or most series, I now know which ones I need to concentrate on. Many I won't bother with too much because I simply don't have the interest or time to become "good" in those series.
There were a few other forum members in the class who I hope will also give their impressions. I got the feeling that, overall, most felt the class was worthwhile and most took full advantage of the time to view coins and ask questions. It was nice to have other people to disuss opinions with about particular coins. Some were novices, others had quite a bit of experience. I recommend the class to any who want to improve their skills and meet new people.
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and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
I was the same way with the weak strike vs. AU coins. On one hand, I would like to do better, but on the other I have to wonder how much work should be required of a hobby!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
A lot of early stuff I did okay on which I credit to viewing thousands of auction lot coins over the last year or two. I didn't view any auction lots this time. I was sick of looking at coins by the time the show rolled around. Being a dealer and a collector would be tough. You have to see so many coins, being a dealer, that I don't think you could appreciate them as a hobby. Not to many people have hobbies connected to their professions. Of course, there are exceptions.
I should add that I viewed auction lots, in the past, to learn about coins. I tried to look at all the coins I could just to see how and why they were graded the way they were.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
never worked out to do it. Sounds like a good investment into the
hobby.
If you find out any info about a potential grading class in Pittsburg, shoot me a PM. If I can work out the schedule to attend, I will try. Don Heath was telling me how much he enjoyed the one he attended last year. I looked on the site, but it isnt showing one as of this time.
jim
Would you please help me to understand what "Market Grading" is and how it differs from "Technical Grading". Is Market Grading similar to what is meant by a Commercially Graded coin ??
Thanks in advance for shedidng some light on this.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
This makes grading very difficult to beginners like myself, but I see the sense of it. A gorgeous au58 could be much more desireable than a true ms61 or 62 that is truly uncirculated but has excessive bag marks an no little eye appeal.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
The problem is that market grading is used more for eye appeal than the example you cited of a touch of rub. What transpires is the TPG takes a technical 64 and puts it in a 66 slab. Now, the dealer sells it as a 66 with great eye appeal asking a premium over the 66 price. But the premium had already been assigned in the grade. Every market graded coin gets a double bump, first by the TPG and then when the dealer who sells it. Unfortunately the TPG's won't market grade to the downside. I've never seen a 65 in a 63 slab because it is a dog.
I understand that this will not go away, but it will eventually do more damage due to the confusion it creates. And every dealer will work both sides of the situation to take advantage of collectors. Beginners don't have a chance where market grading is involved.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Cameron Kiefer
I just checked. Both sessions are full for this summer.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>What transpires is the TPG takes a technical 64 and puts it in a 66 slab. Now, the dealer sells it as a 66 with great eye appeal asking a premium over the 66 price. But the premium had already been assigned in the grade. Every market graded coin gets a double bump, first by the TPG and then when the dealer who sells it >>
I agree Fatman..... but sometimes go sell those coins to the dealers and all of a sudden they become technical graders (if you know what O mean)
BTW, I been saying the "Double Bump" theory for quite some time. I also believe I "Coined" that phrase.
<< <i>See to me - graders have no business setting prices on coins. Grade the darn thing what it's supposed to be graded and the market will price it accordingly. Don't try playing market maker just because a coin happens to be popular. >>
I agree 100% with Frank's comment above. If it's a PQ AU-58 with great eye appeal, then that should be part of the buyer/seller negotiation during the transaction. That's part of the subjective art of buying and selling coins.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
It got off to a slow start but was great overall. The highlight was getting to see the ANA grading set coins and try and figure out why coins either were body-bagged or why they graded the way they did.
After listening to Lange, I decided I would like to spend a year mining his brain!
MD, I agree about the Walkers. I went through the boxes 3 times and on the 4th time started to catch on. The unstruck planchet is rough and mimics wear on the high-points. Once you recognize that, it becomes easier to tell AU from MS62. I've spent so much time on copper that it was a real revelation to me.
The Morgans were easy, as were the IHC's and FE cents. It was fun to walk the floor after the seminar. It was like blinders had been removed - problem coins everywhere!
I would highly recommend the seminar to all who are either beginners or specialists like me who want to broaden their horizons a bit.
I think it's something that both Advanced classes are already full for this summer. The two years I was there, I didn't register until May.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Glad to here your report on the grading seminar. It would be nice if you could come to Colorado this summer and take the advanced/problem coin grading class. I assure you you'd have a great time and learn a tremendous amount. Contact Gail Baker. Tell her I sent you.
njcoincrank
ps PM me if you wish.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
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Mean?
njcoincrank
Contact Gail at ANA,the ANA website or GSNA website