After Mr. Hall made his comments.....warning NGC people
Manorcourtman
Posts: 8,024 ✭✭✭✭✭
I prepared my next order as usual. I just laughed and was pleased a CEO had the freakin guts to post an actual opinion. Will I change my submission habits....no. Will I actually care if my slab has PNG listed on it....Hell no!!! Will I send my order to NGC because the label has a PNG endorsement on it....what a joke.....of course not. As the years pass the new collectors/dealers who actually were influenced by a silly endorsement will realize their NGC coins sold for 30% less on Ebay and head for this side of the street. $$ talks....BS walks. The truth hurts for some who still don't understand economics. Please don't flame me with the usual buy the coin and not the slab BS. Mercedes cars sell for more based on quality and perception of quality. PCGS coins sell for more based on quality and perception of quality. Will I buy a PCGS MS68 coin sight unseen.....yes. Will I buy a NGC MS68 coin sight unseen......not a chance. Mr. Hall....keep up the good, conservative work out on the left coast. Reputation, quality, and consistancy(sp) in grading mean more than any silly endorsement.
Chris
Chris
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Comments
Camelot
Russ, NCNE
It seems like a much better investment on the future to me.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
As I said a few days ago in the open forum, there should be a Rockem Sockem Robot Forum to deal with these kind of things. A neutral refree can stop the action and send them into the Rockem Sockem Robot Forum. The first person to record 3 knockdowns wins.
<< <i>I actually feel better about a grading service that has less ties with paid endorsements. mike >>
I agree. I also feel good about a grading service that isn't associated with the home ripoff network (err, home shopping network =D).
<< <i>The only thing I care about is quality and Pcgs Washington quarters are far and away better than same graded Ngc quarters. >>
How bout proofs? Any experience with these?
Free Trial
<< <i>I think PCGS should take the $504,000 and hire a new grader rather than worry about the PNG endorsement >>
They could hire 2-3 with that money.
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>I prepared my next order as usual. I just laughed and was pleased a CEO had the freakin guts to post an actual opinion. Will I change my submission habits....no. Will I actually care if my slab has PNG listed on it....Hell no!!! Will I send my order to NGC because the label has a PNG endorsement on it....what a joke.....of course not. As the years pass the new collectors/dealers who actually were influenced by a silly endorsement will realize their NGC coins sold for 30% less on Ebay and head for this side of the street. $$ talks....BS walks. The truth hurts for some who still don't understand economics. Please don't flame me with the usual buy the coin and not the slab BS. Mercedes cars sell for more based on quality and perception of quality. PCGS coins sell for more based on quality and perception of quality. Will I buy a PCGS MS68 coin sight unseen.....yes. Will I buy a NGC MS68 coin sight unseen......not a chance. Mr. Hall....keep up the good, conservative work out on the left coast. Reputation, quality, and consistancy(sp) in grading mean more than any silly endorsement.
Chris
<< <i>Will I buy a PCGS MS68 coin sight unseen.....yes. >>
I HOPE YOU'RE NOT SERIOUS????????????
<< <i>Mercedes cars sell for more based on quality and perception of quality >>
bad statement IMO
how many Mercedes do you own right now?
<< <i><< I think PCGS should take the $504,000 and hire a new grader rather than worry about the PNG endorsement >>
They could hire 2-3 with that money.
Cameron Kiefer >>
Cammie,
Time for you to take a math refresher course.
Russ, NCNE
#2) I have never submitted coins to either NGC or PCGS. I have bought and sold both with equal success.
#3) I buy the coin, not the holder. I have found that buying either TPC slab sight-unseen is a 95% assurance the coin is as graded.
#4) I have absolutely no interest in who has ANA or PNG endorsement.
Here is why I no longer have any "respect or value" for any threads/posts here aside from numismatically connected ones.
#5) Most of us were able to read the DH thread with his original post. Childish, accusatory and very unprofessional.
#6) Then after quite a few responses, CU edited it to a more "politically correct" line in an attempt to soften his original statement.
#7) David Feigenbaum posts not one, but two statements explaining his/their (DLRC) position on the matter and responds to questions from members, getting lambasted for his efforts.
#8) What does CU do? They edit both his posts!!!!!
This forum is the Washington Post and the cover-up is "HALLGATE"!
you on you way out.
Camelot
Marc
If you are so unhappy with my observations, you are certainly free to NOT read/respond to them.
and we will do our best to return the favor.
Camelot
<< <i>Mercedes cars sell for more based on quality and perception of quality.
Chris
I'm with you all the way, except for the non-sensical crappola about Mercedes. If I slab a Mercedes I would send it to Accucrap. BMW too for that matter. Love paying outrageous prices for vehicles that are loaded more with THE PERCEPTION OF QUALITY than with the quality itself, which hits home with the outrageous prices for maintenance and repair.
Mercedes and BMW ............... and quality ................... yah, right.
I'm with you on the coin stuff though.
By the way, do you or marcmoish have any knowledge pertaining to the "alleged" cover-up on the CU forums? Did you see any money change hands or documents being shredded? Can you tell me the initials maybe,?, of who authorized the dispersal of funds or the shredding?
Camelot
For heavens sake BUY the coin not the holder
No one I sell to just looks at the holder, they look at the coin in the holder.
Name buying comparison is a perfect example.
Mercedes automobiles trend for less now that Chrysler owns the company. The quality hasn't gone away, but for many the idealism and standards held high in the Mercedes tradition has (they've bled themselves into thinking so anyway).
With this in mind, hypothetically speaking of course, if a foreign company were to buy PCGS out, would the trend for PCGS slabs drop despite the retention of quality and standards in grading? On another note, if PCGS were to buy NGC out, what might that do to the trend in NGC plastic?
Just a thought.
Craig
<< <i>Here is why I no longer have any "respect or value" for any threads/posts here aside from numismatically connected ones.
#5) Most of us were able to read the DH thread with his original post. Childish, accusatory and very unprofessional.
#6) Then after quite a few responses, CU edited it to a more "politically correct" line in an attempt to soften his original statement.
#7) David Feigenbaum posts not one, but two statements explaining his/their (DLRC) position on the matter and responds to questions from members, getting lambasted for his efforts.
#8) What does CU do? They edit both his posts!!!!!
>>
Very good observations. As I've said before, I don't collect, and have never collected slabbed coins, so I couldn't care less about PCGS or NGC graded coins. However, I do wonder why some of the people around here can't seem to look at the facts you've pointed out with an objective eye. I can see why some people have been labeled Kool-aid drinkers.
As both of us will more then likely be seen as traitorous to the staunch PCGS supporters, I thank you for joining me in the search for truth, justice and answers to questions no one wants us asking.
But to blindly oppose those of us asking for the answers and pointing out the facts as they are available to all, is tantamount to standing on the prairie watching Custer ride off to his fate yelling..."Show 'em what fer, General!"
I personally salute all PCGS forum members for their fanatic adherence to PCGS and loyalty to its leader. This is in no way intended to poke fun at them. I sincerely mean it. But to shoot the interpreter because you don't like the interpretation is lunacy. I would expect this from some of the younger members, but not from those who have been "through the woods and over the hills."
<< <i> I personally salute all PCGS forum members for their fanatic adherence to PCGS and loyalty to its leader. This is in no way intended to poke fun at them. I sincerely mean it. But to shoot the interpreter because you don't like the interpretation is lunacy. I would expect this from some of the younger members, but not from those who have been "through the woods and over the hills." >>
That's what strikes me as odd. We aren't dealing with two junior high football teams. We're dealing with two highly respected professional corporations and the fact that so many old-time respected forum members are essentially saying "yeah, you tell 'em DH", is strange. Have those people lost sight of the fact that the CEO of a major corporation has essentially thrown a temper tantrum in public and lost all sense of professionalism? Not to mention that some of his statements, now edited, may have even gotten him into legal trouble? Does that fact not make any of them wonder what else may be going on behind the scenes with a company they do business with? I think those are honest questions that should be considered objectively. Kool-aid drinkers indeed.
<< <i>Kool-aid drinkers indeed. >>
This is what i think of this term as I keep reading it......
This sick reference to the Jim Jones cult and the many that died....
Its sick........ These people were misled and the evil one blinded their eyes...
Jesus Christ died on the cross for them also..... I pray that He had mercy on their souls....
As a believer in the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.....
Jesus, I will not make any reference and or any connection to this horrible tradegy in a mocking way of people that support any given company, a tradegy that cost people their lives and brought pain to their surviving family members...........
Though my sins are many Lord, I pray that many equiped Christians can reach and witness to the cultists, before its to late.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I personally salute all PCGS forum members for their fanatic adherence to PCGS and loyalty to its leader. This is in no way intended to poke fun at them. I sincerely mean it. But to shoot the interpreter because you don't like the interpretation is lunacy. I would expect this from some of the younger members, but not from those who have been "through the woods and over the hills.">>>>>>>>>>
Come again?????
ALL PCGS forum members????????? Are you sure????????? You want to double check that??????????
I might be a PCGS forum member but I do know David Hall respects my independent mind set. We may not always agree but at least we know how to disagree.
I do know that David Hall listens to those who are critical of PCGS; sure change sometimes is slow but it does come. Sometimes we learn, sometimes he learns. This is also true at NGC.
But I would suggest you withdraw your above comment. It is simply untrue and unneccessary.
First POTD 9/19/05!!
<< <i>Lucy, Jonestown is where that term was first coined, and has acheived a notorious meaning in the American lexicon for "those who follow blindly". >>
To me its disrespectful to the terrible tradegy that occured there....
In my viewpoint, the Evil one was part of this blinding of their eyes..... He comes with lies and deciet...... to mame corrupt and kill....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>
<< <i>Lucy, Jonestown is where that term was first coined, and has acheived a notorious meaning in the American lexicon for "those who follow blindly". >>
To me its disrespectful to the terrible tradegy that occured there....
In my viewpoint, the Evil one was part of this blinding of their eyes..... He comes with lies and deciet...... to mame corrupt and kill.... >>
I meant it in the same way everyone else is saying it, in regard to people following others blindly, with no ill intentions toward those who died at Jonestown. I think the phrase has taken on a meaning of it's own, apart from the original tragedy.
I'm sorry but I think I am missing something you're trying to tell me. Why should I re-think my statement? Why should I withdraw it? Why do you say it is untrue? What do you base your statements on? I said it---I meant it. If you do not believe me, there is nothing I can do about it unless you enlighten me with answers to my questions.
As I said in my above 8 point post, I have no axe to grind with either TPG service. And I'll add I have no axe to grind with any PCGS forum member or members. Disagreeing with and/or bantering comments with any member of this forum in no way has a direct correlation to my personal feelings toward that member or their opinion, just as I do yours. But I do not completely understand it.
If you would be so kind as to expound on your requests, I would be more then happy to respond.
The view I hold is probably unpopular and small, but that is what I think of the use of this phrase.....
and as for me and my house, we won't do it!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
The question is, will the perception and therefore the percentage of the selling price difference change when the buying public becomes aware that NGC has both endorsements and PCGS has none?
Remember, there are A LOT MORE new collectore that have joinned the hobby in the past 3-4 years than any other time in history, and probably the vast majority are not aware of what may or may not be any difference in grading standards between the two, thereby being influenced by the fact that NGC s' slabs (will) carry both endorsements in the near future.
Jim
But that wasn't DH's objective...
Interesting how this "nuance" has been over-looked.
<<<<<<<I personally salute all PCGS forum members for their fanatic adherence to PCGS and loyalty to its leader. This is in no way intended to poke fun at them. I sincerely mean it. >>>>>
Not all PCGS forum members are fanatically in adherence to PCGS and loyalty to its leader. I found that to be a blanket statement and untrue.
For example, I posted on another thread as well as on one of the the NGC thread that I felt Mr. Hall was wrong. Pure and simple. No embellishing. Other PCGS forum members including myself do NOT express fanatical loyalty to PCGS or to NGC and to either leader.
You stated that you salute "ALL PCGS forum members for their fanatic adherence and loyalty to its leader." You overreached there and it is simply untrue. Please retract your statement. Or revise it from "ALL" to "MOST." Then it is a matter of whether it is MOST or MANY. There are enough arguments on either side for that.
Now if you said <<<<<<<I personally salute MOST PCGS forum members for their fanatic adherence to PCGS and loyalty to its leader. This is in no way intended to poke fun at them. I sincerely mean it. >>>>> then I would have much less reason to take umbrage at your statement.
09/07/2006
None of this has any effect on me or my buying/selling habits. I still believe PCGS is #1 in the grading arena for many reasons, not the least of which is the perceived and realized value for/of the resident coin in their slab. The "in-house" antics of DH will not affect this fact to 90% of the buying/selling public one iota whether they learn of it or not. The other 10% may think it will, but they will find out that it won't in time.
But the fact that DH said what he said (statement/revised statement)---then did what he did (edit others posts) to deny us full access to everyones point of view showed me a serious personality flaw. And those forum members who, rather then ask the same questions I am, decide to pounce on those that are asking, show a refusal to acknowledge the internal problems of PCGS led by DH.
All DH had to do (as I suggested earlier) was say something to the effect of..."I congratulate NGC for being selected by PNG to be their official grader. I know they will do a fine job for them as we did for the previous 5 years." Everything that has transpired here and across the street would never have come to light.
Instead, we were allowed to see a side of DH that spoke volumes as to just how upset he was at having lost the bid. And he kept making it worse. He didn't just "shoot himself in the foot", he almost blew his leg off.
There is a time and a place for swallowing ones pride and doing the right thing just as there is a time and a place for speaking out against those who have not done so. This is such a time and place.
P.S. The "silence of the lambs" thread simply lends credence to my posts.
The only item I take offense to is that at least TWICE now I have seen people tout Mercedes. Well, as a car lover I must object! Since the Daimler-Chrysler merger the quality of Mercedes has been falling off significantly, as some of the components are now made of lesser American parts. People are now only paying for a name, not the quality that was there 15 or 20 years ago. Hmph. Just thought I'd throw that in to break up the fighting. (Hmm? Paying for a name? I guess I see a similarity here.)
J
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
C.
<< <i>..."I congratulate NGC for being selected by PNG to be their official grader. I know they will do a fine job for them as we did for the previous 5 years." >>
selected? They weren't "selected," That endorsement was bought and paid for by the highest bidder. I don't know about any of you, but such an "endorsement" that is for sale, means nothing to me. What matters to me, is that I can sell my coins for higher prices when they are inside PCGS holders.