World Series results

homerunhall · March 16, 2004 11:10PM

Winners of Round Three of the PCGS World Series of Grading (and their scores) were;

Collectors Division
Darrell Low (61)
Ralph Dimmick (60)

Professional Division
Andy Lustig (73.5)
Dale Williams (69)
Lee Bellisario (69)
Note that all three dealers winners are former PCGS graders.

One more qualifying round is schedule at the June Long Beach show.

Current qualifiers and potential qualifiers for the Pittsburg ANA finals are;

Collector Division;
Round One winners - John Sullivan (60), Mark Kever (59)
Round Two winners - Craig Eberhart (62), Nick Cascio (61)
Round Three winners - Darrel Low (61), Ralph Dimmick (60)
Possible Wild Card berth - George Callahan (58), Richard Hennessy (56), Sam Deep (54.5), Guillaume LaFrance (54.5), Larry Shapiro (54), Greg Hensen (50.5), Michael Grodecki (50.5), Eric Hogan (50.5)

Professional Division;
Round One winners - Steve Slater (77), Chris Napolitano (75)
Round Two winners - Robert Johnson (85.5), Jason Carter (85), Jeff Garrett (85)
Round Three winners - Andy Lustig (73.5), Dale Williams (69), Lee Bellisario (69)
Possible Wild Card berths - Jim Halperin (82.5), Thad Olson (81.5), Tim Carroll (81.5), Don Bonser (81.5), Don Ketterling (78.5), Doug Thomas (78.5), Brian Hendelson (78.5)

jbsteven · March 16, 2004 11:14PM

<< Andy Lustig (73.5) >>

jbsteven · March 16, 2004 11:16PM

kinda interesting how the grades for each round are fairly consistent with the top finishers. See how the round 2 winners all had pretty high scores in the dealer category (easier coins that time?).

MadMarty · March 16, 2004 11:18PM

Where is Cameron "I can grade better than anyone else!" Kiefer????

kieferscoins · March 17, 2004 12:20AM

I never said I was better than everyone else.

Cameron Kiefer

dbldie55 · March 17, 2004 12:48AM

As soon as Dale comes back from the east coast I will have to give him congrats (since I am in his store everyday)

homerunhall · March 17, 2004 1:28AM

On first glance it may appear that the coins in Round Two were easier and the coins in Round Three harder. However, note that winning collector division scores were about the same for all three rounds. In addition, there was an incredible amount of dealer buzz about the contest at the Long Beach show and a larger number of dealers took the test, including many heavyweights (Jim Halperin of Heritage!) I think all three rounds were a fair test of grading ability.

That said, I do believe this last round was a little harder. We have one more qualifying round at Long Beach and once again Ron Howard and I will try to be as fair as possible. As for the World Series of Grading Finals at the Pittsburgh ANA...No more Mr. Nice Guy!...I promise those 100 coins will be ball busters and the winner will really be the winner.

kranky · March 17, 2004 1:46AM

Who else from the collector's division besides Larry Shapiro and Nick Cascio are board members?

I'm happy to see Eric Hogan on the list. He was in the grading class I took with Trime a couple years ago. I don't think he's even 16 years old. Really nice kid.

Congrats to Andy Lustig.

dragon · March 17, 2004 1:58AM

This whole contest is patently unfair due to people who would like to compete and have a shot at a cash prize but cannot attend the shows for whatever reason.

Bochiman · March 17, 2004 2:00AM

Hey! Where are the women?
Have any women taken the challenge or is it all testosterone laced?

Do you at least have women cheerleaders for the contestants?

Seriously though, I see a growing number of women on the board and it would be cool (I am NOT saying to be unfair and overly PC on this) if some women were at least entering.

PQpeace · March 17, 2004 2:46AM

Dragon,
call your favorite airline...
make a reservation for Long Beach..
take the test..
see how easy it is ?

I really have my hands full working 60-70 hrs a week in my Corvair business..and I still find time to make it to all the major shows

If there is a will,there is a way..

One bit of advise..
do not take the grading test after flying all day with no sleep.
I did that in Baltimore and could not concentrate on the coins..
My brain could not function at all..

Other than that..it was fun,
Larry

Boom · March 17, 2004 2:59AM

With all due respect Cameron, I recall a lot of what you had to say concerning your alleged grading

prowess and how you didn't even need a 5X or a loupe. Remember? Now do you honestly believe that

PCGS World Class graders use no magnification, as you previously stated, when one grade in ultra

grade can make the difference in huge amounts of money as far as the "worth" of a coin goes ? Or

would you care to re-think that? Better luck next time-I wish you all the best!

kranky · March 17, 2004 3:01AM

<< Now do you honestly believe that PCGS World Class graders use no magnification, as you previously stated, when one grade in ultra grade can make the difference in huge amounts of money as far as the "worth" of a coin goes ? >>

I don't think they use magnification, with the exception of very small coins like gold dollars and half dimes.

MrEureka · March 17, 2004 3:19AM

Now do you honestly believe that PCGS World Class graders use no magnification

I used a glass on one of the forty coins in the test. And I probably got it wrong.

Edited to say that I just saw the list of final grades and YES, I did get that one coin wrong!

EVillageProwler · March 17, 2004 3:25AM

Congrats to the "Ultimate Lurker"...

EVP

Typetone · March 17, 2004 3:25AM

I grade all coins 5c or larger w/o a glass, and use a very low-powered glass on 10c, 1c, 1/2 cents etc. Of course, I can't grade

, so what's the difference.

Greg

sadysta1 · March 17, 2004 3:32AM

If two of these coins did not get "no grade" for PVC I'm going to contest the results!!!

kranky · March 17, 2004 3:35AM

sadysta1, coins with PVC can still get slabbed, if it's felt that the PVC could be removed without leaving any damage.

kieferscoins · March 17, 2004 3:46AM

"With all due respect Cameron, I recall a lot of what you had to say concerning your alleged grading
prowess and how you didn't even need a 5X or a loupe. Remember? Now do you honestly believe that
PCGS World Class graders use no magnification, as you previously stated, when one grade in ultra
grade can make the difference in huge amounts of money as far as the "worth" of a coin goes ? Or would you care to re-think that?"

Don't start Boom. Yes I remember and I stand by my comment on that still today. I can get into this again with you but you won't listen. I say they don't use them on "most coins" you go off on ultra grade gems. Stick with the conversation and don't think pushing me around with stuff like this makes you look any better.

Lets throw your expertise in grading to the test. Take the World Series!

Cameron Kiefer

merz2 · March 17, 2004 4:04AM

I am hoping that we get the actual grade of the coins when you send us our individual results.I would like to know how close I got.I admit to not knowing how to grade those toners you had in the test.I'm hoping I was close on the Lincolns at least.

kieferscoins · March 17, 2004 4:35AM

You can't be serious Andy. You must have gotten lucky on every grade because if you don't use a loupe you will not grade right. I only use a 1,000x loupe for my ultra grade coins. It is best to spend an hour or more pouring over the coins surface looking for every possible flaw. David Hall said they occasionaly use loupes so I take it as gospel and bash any person who says they don't.

Micrograder

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · March 17, 2004 5:55AM

David Hall Says:

I promise those 100 coins will be BALL BUSTERS and the winner will be the real winner

And I say this is really a guy that knows how to break balls

David - What happened to Ryan Carroll? I believe he took the test in Baltimore.At least he said he was going to do it.

Stewart

greghansen · March 17, 2004 6:44AM

I'm hanging on by the barest of threads for a possible wild card berth with my 50.5 score in the collectors division. Man, I need an excuse to go to Pittsburgh. Making the finals would be the perfect excuse to go up and get humiliated again. My chances aren't looking too good though.

HRH, how about a 'special invitation' in the collectors division to all who scored over 50. Your going to have some qualifying people who can't make the trip to Pittsburgh...especially in the collector division. Most collectors tend to just go to the big shows that are in our areas. You need at least a dozen people in the 'collectors' division to actually go to Pittsburgh and do the grading to give the contest an air of credibility and generate some excitement! Lets get a 'special invitation' thing going, so I can make my travel plans!

After all, you said in the Q&A Forum that in the Collectors Division, any score over 50 was 'good' in your opinion.

O.K., I'm done begging now.

coinchallenged · March 17, 2004 6:45AM

Well, I guess if Cammie was grading at pcgs, the turnaround would be about 3 years.

barberlover · March 17, 2004 6:47AM

I want to repeat something I said in previous threads on this contest. If the pro's consistently beat the collectors because the collectors [on average] grade tighter then the dealers, how is this a bad thing ? I say bravo collectors and keep up the "bad" grading.

Les

DHeath · March 17, 2004 7:23AM

Congratulations Jim (JDimmick)! Nice shot bud. Glad to see you do well. It confirms my suspicion.

jbsteven · March 17, 2004 7:26AM

les

<< If the pro's consistently beat the collectors because the collectors [on average] grade tighter then the dealers, how is this a bad thing ? >>

I think you would have to look at the results to make sure the collectors are grading lower than the assigned grade. Could they we grading too high also? I would think the collectors and anyone for that matter would try to get the EXACT grade and not consiously grade lower just because they were a dealer or collector.

just another side of your statement.

Russ · March 17, 2004 7:29AM

<< I think you would have to look at the results to make sure the collectors are grading lower than the assigned grade. >>

HRH has already stated that this was the case. Thus the genesis of Les's statement.

Russ, NCNE

jbsteven · March 17, 2004 7:35AM

must have missed that. thank you Mr. Helper

(what movie was that from?)

haletj · March 17, 2004 7:57AM

<< Note that all three dealers winners are former PCGS graders. >>

Interesting. So these 3 probably are about as good as any current pcgs grader (or maybe better or worse, who knows), and so on any coin that they got "wrong", who is to say whether they got it wrong or pcgs got it wrong. How can you say pcgs's grade on these is the "right" grade. Do you think the grading world series is more of a ploy to spread the idea pcgs is the grading god and their grades are "right". Anyway, besides this I do think it is just plain neat to have such a contest and if they have more of them in the future I'd love to participate someday.

barberlover · March 17, 2004 7:57AM

Gentlemen please, lol.

I can only go by my own experience of grading raw coins at shows as well as what Russ said and no, I don't remember the thread where I saw that, but I do remember my responce to it where I said I wasn't suprised that the collectors "on average" graded 1 point tighter where they missed the grade, and please notice I said [on average] which means that wasn't true for everyone.

My own experience with buying raw is that since dealers have a vested interest in the outcome they grade loser then I do, not meant as an insult, just meant as whats been my own experience.

Les

Russ · March 17, 2004 8:17AM

<< Do you think the grading world series is more of a ploy to spread the idea pcgs is the grading god and their grades are "right". >>

It wouldn't be much of a ploy since everybody already knows that.

Russ, NCNE

MrEureka · March 17, 2004 8:47AM

must have missed that. thank you Mr. Helper (what movie was that from?)

I don't remember that line but it sounds like something Peewee Herman might have said.

Bochiman · March 17, 2004 8:48AM

<< must have missed that. thank you Mr. Helper

(what movie was that from?) >>

Rodney Dangerfield's "Back to School" I believe...that was the very funny, Sam Kinison, who was quite the "interesting" comedian

dbldie55 · March 17, 2004 8:58AM

<< 

<< must have missed that. thank you Mr. Helper

(what movie was that from?) >>

Rodney Dangerfield's "Back to School" I believe...that was the very funny, Sam Kinison, who was quite the "interesting" comedian

>>

That is the one.

coinkat · March 17, 2004 9:20AM

Sam Kinison was the History Teacher. I do not recall the line, but that was an excellent film as is Easy Money.

homerunhall · March 18, 2004 2:00AM

re Collectors grading tighter. Actually I believe the big difference in the scores was that collectors missed by two grades or more (a 2.5 point deduction) many more times than dealers did. Most dealer misses were in the one grade category, a 1.0 point deduction. The guys who do it everyday...and make their living doing it...are logically better at coin grading than the guys who do it when they are not busy at their day job. The dealers are more accurate and consistent graders than the collectors. No surprise.

As for collectors being more conservative, I think that statement might be a bit mis-leading. For example, in this round there were some clearly mint state, high end coins (i.e. MS65 and MS66) that some collectors graded AU58. It wasn't that they were more conservative than the dealers, they just totally missed the grade.

Stewart...Ryan Carroll has not yet taken the test. I'm hoping that he will in Long Beach. I still think he is one of the favorites to win the dealer division...if he takes the test.

David

jbsteven · March 18, 2004 3:12AM

hmmmm

dragon · March 18, 2004 3:21AM

I still say I could win the collectors division if I could somehow enter without traveling 1000s of miles.

MacCrimmon · March 18, 2004 5:34AM

<< I still say I could win the collectors division if I could somehow enter without traveling 1000s of miles. >>

Maybe you and Cammie can get together and cry on each other's shoulders!!

If you can really win the $5000, then get thee to LB and 'walk the walk'.

merz2 · March 18, 2004 7:22AM

OK,here it is.I promised I'd post my score when I received it (good or bad). I had a dismal score of only 31.I won't make excuses.In my own defense though,I did do better with the cents.

I believe the toning on some of the coins caused me to miss the grades badly.This isn't an excuse,just a fact.I wish to thank David for the opportunity to at least test myself.I now know what not to try and collect raw.

coinkat · March 18, 2004 8:05AM

HRH:

Guilty as charged with completely misgrading a 1/2 Dime...I graded the coin AU58 and PCGS and the top 3 dealers were at either MS65 or 66. Guilty as charged for completely blowing the 1887-s Morgan too. Overall, my score was just under 50 and a big disappointment, but it was worth participating.

What did I learn? Well, maybe I am not the grader I think I am and knowing grading limitations is helpful. After the depressing score, I took the time to look at my grades, PCGS grades and the three top dealers. This is what the stats reflect:

1. My grade matched the PCGS grade or at least one of the top three dealers 24 times out of the total of 40 coins.

2. My grade missed by one grade (difference between 65 and 66) the PCGS grade or the grade of one at least one of the top three 13 times.

3. Following the same pattern, I missed 2 coins by 2 grades and there was the 1/2 Dime.

I feel better knowing that at least I was one grade away from PCGS or at least one of the top 3 dealers that are former PCGS graders for 37 of 40 coins. I undergraded the vast majority, except that Morgan that none of the dealers graded correctly either. The scorecard says it all...

Thanks for the chance and I will participate again.

Barry · March 18, 2004 8:43AM

Interesting that there are some coins that the top 3 dealers all agreed on, but not with PCGS. If the coin were cracked out and regraded, do you think PCGS would be come up with the same grade?

ddink · March 19, 2004 4:02AM

One thing I don't understand: what if you disagree with the grade PCGS gave the coin? Unless I misunderstand the contest, aren't contestants assuming that PCGS is right 100% of the time? What if PCGS made a mistake grading the coin, not the contestant?

MrEureka · March 19, 2004 4:15AM

Guilty as charged with completely misgrading a 1/2 Dime...I graded the coin AU58 and PCGS and the top 3 dealers were at either MS65 or 66.

CoinKat - In all fairness to you, that was one of the toughest coins in the test. It was an arrows half dime with a huge amount of die clashing and some die erosion. On top of that, it was lightly dipped, so the coin didn't have great luster. Other than those problems, the coin was borderline superb. I ended up grading the coin 66 and was too high by a point. But at the time I graded it, I thought that PCGS could have graded it anywhere from 64 to 66.

coinkat · March 19, 2004 9:44AM

Andy:

I completely agree with your description of the half dime with one exception... I thought there was rub across all the high points on the obverse and it is clear that I just did not look at the coin right and made a stupid mistake...it happens. Unfortunately, that was the most glaring and embarrassing. I would be interested in reading your thoughts as to which coin(s) you believe were the toughest.

The slug Morgan is going to haunt me the rest of my life!

jdimmick · March 19, 2004 9:46AM

Andy,

I also graded the coin AU-58. The heavy clash marks thru me for a loop on that one. I must have been seeing the light dipping as covering a little rub. I thought it was one of the toughest for me as well.

coinkat · March 19, 2004 10:21AM

Jdimmick:

Congrats on a very respectable showing... I guess I am not alone on the half dime... I already found the big three that msigraded the slug Morgan

I had alot of fun and I want to do this again.

MrEureka · March 19, 2004 11:24AM

The slug Morgan is going to haunt me the rest of my life

Yeah, you would think we should be able to grade Morgans in Good. But I also blew it and called it VG.

coinkat · March 19, 2004 11:31AM

Andy;

I too graded it VG8 and while I offer no excuses, I can honestly say I have not bought a Morgan in that grade since the first CC Morgan I bought when I was 12.

MrEureka · March 19, 2004 12:38PM

I would be interested in reading your thoughts as to which coin(s) you believe were the toughest.

One of them was the proof Trade Dollar. There was a long horizontal glaringly obvious toning streak in the left obverse field that looked almost like a scratch. Otherwise, the coin was pure blast white cameo. I put a glass to the streak and saw no sign of a scratch or underlying corrosion. Nevertheless, it was hard to believe that the owner of the coin hadn't tried to remove the streak. I assumed that the streak was an unremovable stain. The coin was technically a 66, but I mistakenly downgraded it to 65 for "negative eye appeal" due to the streak.

Another difficult coin was the fake 11-D quarter eagle. The obverse was so badly cleaned that I almost called it "cleaned" before realizing it was "fake".

World Series results

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