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So, which is right?

tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
The same coin graded by NGC - first a few years ago and more recently as part of a Pedigree submission. Not only has the grade changed, but so has the cameo designation. Plus the coin suddenly became an original striking when before it was a restrike. What's up with that?

image

image
Early Dollar Set

Comments

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey,

    Refresh my memory, if you will, the body of research data for this date vis-a-vis the original-vs-restrike issue.

    If memory serves, there is no conclusive evidence of either the existence of originals or the diags for the determination of the originals. I also believe that Stack's is in the opposing camp to what I just wrote.

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    You sure it's the same coin? Stars look different.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • XpipedreamRXpipedreamR Posts: 8,059 ✭✭
    The second grade is right. Duh.
  • SethChandlerSethChandler Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree, are you sure its the same coin? Kinda OT, but....... was the coin lightened? Looks like the fingerprint in coin #1 left odv field isn't there as much in coin #2.

    Cool coin.

    How come this stuff never happens to my coins?image
    Collecting since 1976.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "So, what's up with that?"

    A pit stop at NCS?

    peacockcoins

  • ClankeyeClankeye Posts: 3,928 ✭


    << <i>A pit stop at NCS? >>



    That was my first thought. Have no idea if that is the case though.

    IF it were true, what a nice little cycle NGC has going there. Coin goes to NCS, comes out, regrades a point higher. Owners very happy--probably inclined to do future business and spread the good word.

    Again--I am just thinking out loud. I have no evidence or inside information that happened with that coin.

    Clankeye
    Brevity is the soul of wit. --William Shakespeare
  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,271 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't know squat about the restrike, grade or pedigree but it is a sweet coin image.
    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If it's not the same coin, then there's a provenance problem [ouch - let's not go there again!]. But even NCS can't turn a restrike into an original! image

    BTW - the Share 1851 upgraded from PF64 to PF65 for the same collection, however I don't have a before pic for that one.
    Early Dollar Set
  • jbstevenjbsteven Posts: 6,178 ✭
    I agree the stars look different. I don't think it is the same coin.
  • SethChandlerSethChandler Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭✭
    Yea, I'm not convinced its the same coin.

    Where's Jadecoin when you need'em?

    Seth
    Collecting since 1976.
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    here's my best argument that they're not the same. Look at star #8 between head and cap. Look how close the point of the star is to the denticles on the lower one and how much farther away it is on the top one.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,948 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm having the same trouble as the others. Normally when you see pictures of the same coin one can pick out patterns in the marks, scratches and toning. I keep going from one photo to the other, and and can't see those patterns. If anything the MS-65 coin looks like it has few marks than the MS-64, which only right! Scratches do not repair themselves over time ...

    The first photo is dark, and the second one is lighter. Different light angles in the photos can show different things. Still there should be some markers that would show that this is the same coin, and I'm having trouble finding them.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ClankeyeClankeye Posts: 3,928 ✭


    << <i>But even NCS can't turn a restrike into an original! >>



    True, but I bet they could influence a cameo designation.
    Brevity is the soul of wit. --William Shakespeare
  • NumismanicNumismanic Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭
    The coins do not look the same, look at the date. The date on the restrike appears to be further from the base than the original. image
    Don

    U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes

    U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes

  • lathmachlathmach Posts: 4,720 ✭
    Those are not the same coin. Compare the distance between the stars and the denticles, as well as the rock base on the left side to the denticles.

    Ray
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can't find any markers that match between the two photos either. But I do know that the Share collection only contained one 1852. Guess that NGC made a mistake on the Pedigree.
    Early Dollar Set
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    image

    Side-by-side with the images lightened. First coin on the left.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • nankrautnankraut Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭
    I agree strongly with those who say these are not the same coin.
    I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570 ✭

    If you just look between 3 and 5 o'clock on Russ's side-by-side they don't line up as the same coin
    image
    My posts viewed image times
    since 8/1/6
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cool! Pedigree issues aside, it's neat to see an Original 1852 proof!
    Early Dollar Set
  • jbstevenjbsteven Posts: 6,178 ✭
    I would rather argue that it is not the same coin! image
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just so no one thinks I was a total ninny, I did notice the differences too. I actually some others not yet mentioned. But, the first pic is of such a quality (light-wise) that I could not tell for sure and simply chose to take the insert (and TDN) for granted.

    I think the real lesson to be learned here is that TDN should stick with TD's and leave the SD's to the real experts.

    image

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭
    you ninny!
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I actually some others not yet mentioned

    Huh?


    I think the real lesson to be learned here is that TDN should stick with TD's and leave the SD's to the real experts.

    I will if you will... image


    Knowing that pictures can lie and coins can look completely different after NCS, I put too much weight onto the Pedigree on the insert. Apparently my mistake for trusting that! [note that since I have the original submission paperwork for the Share Collection, I do know that there was only one 1852 proof dollar in the set].
    Early Dollar Set
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TDN,

    Read between the lines -- I'm holding up three fingers.

    image

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    The doctor was a specialist.

    Whew

    TP image

    Coin's for sale/trade.


    Tom Pilitowski
    US Rare Coin Investments
    800-624-1870

  • MJHMJH Posts: 538 ✭✭
    Looking at the HEAD , The Nose And The Cheek along with the
    mouth are totally different. Two Different Coins
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok, boyz and gals...

    Does anyone want to talk about the issue of an 1852 original proof coin? Can anyone followup my first post with more information. If you care about SD's at all, and have a researcher's bent to you, you will no doubt appreciate the the main reason why TDN started this thread.

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If memory serves, there is no conclusive evidence of either the existence of originals or the diags for the determination of the originals. I also believe that Stack's is in the opposing camp to what I just wrote.

    Recent thinking was that there were no original proofs struck in 1851-1853 and that all proofs were from restrikes supplied by the mint in the 1860's. But, it might appear that line of thought is incorrect. I do know that originals are on the pop reports and listed in auction catalogs - including an original 1853. But this is the first coin I've seen that does indeed appear to be an original proof.

    I state this cautiously as I do know that pictures taken under different conditions can distort similarities....
    Early Dollar Set
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Do you know how many die pairs there were? Were all of the originals struck from the same die? Those two are very different from each other. both are beautiful coins.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section

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