Will full red copper going up in value start to put more focus on red & brown copper of the same
barberlover
Posts: 2,228 ✭✭
It is interesting to me that N.T. silver coins seem to be doing much better these days then blast white coins, but in copper the opposite is true, full red copper anything seems to be doing well especially ihc's and large cents and better date lincolns, but with the recent upsurge in full red copper prices it seems to me that 65 graded or higher r & b copper of the same grades & types for a fraction of the price that haven't gone up in price with their full red counter parts have almost as much eye appeal, question is will they ever get any price appreciation or is full red the only way. I always liked r & b because of what I thought was better value but based on the last few years not many seem to agree with me.
Les
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
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Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>It is interesting to me that N.T. silver coins seem to be doing much better these days then blast white coins, but in copper the opposite is true, full red copper anything seems to be doing well especially ihc's and large cents and better date lincolns, but with the recent upsurge in full red copper prices it seems to me that 65 graded or higher r & b copper of the same grades & types for a fraction of the price that haven't gone up in price with their full red counter parts have almost as much eye appeal, question is will they ever get any price appreciation or is full red the only way. I always liked r & b because of what I thought was better value but based on the last few years not many seem to agree with me.
Les >>
291fifth,
Excellent post. I find your anaysis here to be very insightful.
While this is not strictly related to my thread,
sadly, I have to agree with you.
All During the Reagon years I remember hearing the news say the g.d.p was going up and all I saw was people who used to work in factories working in sales jobs or at the shopping centers but at that time I believed that if the gross domestic product was going up that must mean most Americans were doing better, not true just more wealth in fewer hands, I'm sure this is a stat many people in government wish we didn't keep track of, but before anyone says this is off topic lets keep in mind that it does take money to buy coins and the fewer people who are working at good jobs the fewer people who will buy expensive coins. To me that is certainly related to the hobby. I very much agree. Their is hope this will not go on forever because when people in mass are affected adversly by vodoo economics they will vote people out who put this stuff in. J.M.O.
Les
No, red copper is a WAY overrated pleasure. I'll have one in inventory now and then, but usually I sell R&B coins or Brown pieces. To me strictly Mint State Brown copper is way underrated.
I know several of the copper specialists have disagreed with me, but I have had a PCGS 64 Rd 1914-d Lincoln that mellowed down in my possession over a couple of year period to a point that I would consider RB. Also, I ocassionally see offered several PCGS red 1909-s vdb in 64 and 65 and 14-d in 64 and 5, along with several better date indians that should be RB. Now either these coins were holderd incorrectly from the start or they have mellowed down over time. I am betting several have mellowed down over time. I also believe that depending on the enviorment that you live such as the wet humid southeast as myself vs warm dry southwest makes a difference including coins in holders, as they are permeable. Now there are some great early large cents, indian cents and other coppers that seem to withstand the test of time and the oxidation process, as I have seen fiery red examples of all, but I am not sure how these factors play on some of the coins and not on others. Could relate back to the storage histroy of the coin prior to slabbing, enviorment, improper handling, etc.
One additional thing that I dont like is the dealers pushing Red holdered coins that truly should be RB for what ever reason and expecting the full red money. Also, this is complicated by buyers who dont understand the pricing structure in the cdn and which dates take major jumps from 63 to 64 to 65. Some are becuase the condition, others its the red/brn vs red and for some its both!
with older copper, and i only look at it sparingly in my search for a nice 1805 Half-Cent for my Denomination Set, it's difficult to beat the look of a deep chocalate brown coin. i saw a proof large cent not long ago that looked like it was made out of glass!!
al h.
I think the RB will go up if the RD stuff goes though the roof, where else could it go?
Actually, red copper is cheap compared to alot of coins to include Morgans, buffs, SLQ's and Mercs. A coin of comparable rarity will cost you much less in red copper. I hope some day the prices are comparable.
I personally like high-end RB copper. Looks pretty much red but may have one area to keep it from red on the holder, and it comes at a bargain price compared to RD.
Could you give me a feel for what you mean by a recent upsurge in prices?? Specific examples/trends would be appreciated.
Tom
<< <i>This market, like so many others in numismatics, is in the process of "going upscale". This is caused by the shift of wealth in the US to an ever shrinking percentage of the population. These people know only the best coins will have any appreciation potential in the future. The coins that the "average" collector bought in the past, and red-brown cents are a good example, are going nowhere because collecting by the "average" collector is in a state of slow decline that will continue for many years. An "average" collector who just saw his job shipped out of the country or just had to take a "newly created" job that pays half of what he/she used to make with no benefits is no longer going to be in a position to be collecting coins. >>
This is a very interesting argument and is extremely logical but it may not be fully supported
by the facts. The highest grade coins have been increasing in value for years spurred on by
the growth of the internet and the availability of coins by third party graders. If this were be-
ing caused by a concentration of wealth in the hands of fewer collectors then one would ex-
pect increases in demand not only for the finest coins but also the rarest. This would include
key dates, rare types, and most rare coins in general. Obviously there are many causations
of all things in the natural world and this goes double in the affairs of man but what we are
seeing appears far more to be a rise in only most such areas as well as the increases being
caused by the swelling collector base. Any increases caused by a concentration of wealth would
seem to be spread similarly to the already existing trends at least to the current time. This is
not to say that this won't become a far more important concern and a factor to keep an eye on.
It is a fascinating theory.
<< <i>Barberlover:
Could you give me a feel for what you mean by a recent upsurge in prices?? Specific examples/trends would be appreciated. >>
I have no statistical data for you, I no longer subscribe to any price sheets/guides.
But I do know what I've seen in auctions as well as on dealer websites, recently I've seen m.s. 65 red type date indians being offered for on either side of 500 dollars but two years ago I bought some nice ones for under 300 dollars. Many early date lincolns in full red have exploded in price over the last year maybe because of the registry craze. Most of the full red large cents I've seen for sale lately have asking prices in 65 at hundreds more then just a couple years ago. You certainly know more about this stuff then me but I'm just going by what I've seen.
Edited to add, right now their is a dealer we all know and respect with a number of full red type date ihc's for sale in mint state 66 red being offered for prices between 1250-1350, would they have brought that much 2 years ago ?
Les
I can back you up a little from watching the recent Signature auctions. I dont follow the prices like Lakes, Stewart and the others, but it appeared to me from watching the auction results that the full red Lincolns and Indians were showing strong intrest and prices realized compared to the majority of the red/ brown of the same date and series which went somewhat lowered compared to thier price listing, even some discounted. Not being at the auction, I dont know if they all sold at that level, but they must have as they did not appear on the last chance bin.
jim
But later date red large cents, half cents, and 2 cent pieces have floundered. They are great coins, still cheap, and many are fully original. Red MS65 large cents have been at $2000-2500 for the past 14 years. Half cents are much tougher but actually sell for a fraction of their rarity. Personally, I prefer nice orig red over the RB's.
But the downside is buying a pig in the holder that is not right. And that's a lot to swallow if you make a mistake buying a PCGS/NGC mistake. Here's one area where you have to buy it from a knowledgeable source too, and get a 2nd opinion on top of that.
roadrunner
But later date red large cents, half cents, and 2 cent pieces have floundered. They are great coins, still cheap, and many are fully original. Red MS65 large cents have been at $2000-2500 for the past 14 years. Half cents are much tougher but actually sell for a fraction of their rarity. Personally, I prefer nice orig red over the RB's.
But the downside is buying a pig in the holder that is not right. And that's a lot to swallow if you make a mistake buying a PCGS/NGC mistake. Here's one area where you have to buy it from a knowledgeable source too, and get a 2nd opinion on top of that.
roadrunner
Re Large Cents, you are getting new graders and different standards of what falls into which color designation. In the last several years, I've seen an increasing number of late date Large Cents slabbed as RD that had as little as 80% RD. I have a high end RB 1850 Large Cent that to me looks as good as some of these bottom end RDs. As someone pointed out, prices for RD late date Large Cents have been stagnant for over a decade.
Many copper experts cannot detect newly doctored RD copper. The coin is doctored, immediately slabbed (because initially, it looks good), and then sold. Several months later, the owner of the coin has a problem, and HOPEFULLY, PCGS will make good on it copper guarantee.
I prefer RB copper. The premium over BN usually isn't horrible, and it's a fraction of the RD copper price. I don't see it taking off in price anytime soon, because the people with the bucks want the most expensive coins, and don't care about the rest of them.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I never mentioned 2 cent pieces.
Anyone that thinks type date indians in full red haven't gone up in price in the last few years where are you getting yours and what price are you paying ?
Les
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"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
"If it don't make $"
"It don't make cents""
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"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
"If it don't make $"
"It don't make cents""
But later date red large cents, half cents, and 2 cent pieces have floundered. They are great coins, still cheap, and many are fully original. Red MS65 large cents have been at $2000-2500 for the past 14 years. Half cents are much tougher but actually sell for a fraction of their rarity. Personally, I prefer nice orig red over the RB's.
But the downside is buying a pig in the holder that is not right. And that's a lot to swallow if you make a mistake buying a PCGS/NGC mistake. Here's one area where you have to buy it from a knowledgeable source too, and get a 2nd opinion on top of that.
roadrunner
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for me
as per the above one of the most astute statements i have ever heard on red copper
take for example matte proof lincolns
the best coin to buy far and above over any other type of matte proof lincoln is
high grade full original red coin! of course making sure you know and understand what you are looking at and that the coin is a FULL RED UNPLAYED WITH ORIGINAL coin
also if properly stored within reason and carefully will not change in color at least in my lifetime
michael
TJ - I don't think so.
I've bought a few RB coins recently just because I like them. The 1872 below is a good example, nicer than 90% of the red 1872's out there. If your lucky enough to find a nice, evenly toned one, it's a beautiful sight. The 1864 c/L that Shylock posted a few months back was another beauty. Agree they are a bargain in comparison.
A few days ago I posted thread about Braided Head large cents on the Registry Set Forum and the series is so dead that no one even responded.
If you can get a real 66R for $1250, I'd buy it in a minute. If it's all there, it's worth much more, $1500-$1700. Even the common 1898 is bringing stronger prices, likely from type buyers. All too often however a 66R is an overgraded 65R that has the PCGS 66R "look" from arms length but with problems at 3X. Same for some of the available 65R's. I sold an ugly 65R at the FUN show and now I see it as a "monster" 65R on the buyers web-site!
Even after 9 years, still have a few dates missing because I'm looking for the "all there' coins. If the holes were all filled, it wouldn't be fun anymore.