>>>I thought it was slightly superior, until I figured out that they only gave awards to classic sets with a majority NGC. I felt that was deceptive and even more restrictive than limiting coins to PCGS holders so I pulled my sets off their Registry>>>
i dont know really what to say as i know ( as most do ) what you have......you really do have some great pieces....talk about rare history...really cool.....i am sure it was an over-sight of some sort.....additionally if it were me id feel strange saying something to them .....so i will
i am sure the selections were done by an " underling " and proposed to mark et al...........then ok`ed by the 3 mentioned ( mark-rick - ??? )....in any event
*****************here are props to you tdn*****************
your collection aside...........the insight that you bring to all who read your posts are what put you in ....well ....as bum used to say about earl campbell
" IF HE IS NOT IN A CLASS BY HIMSELF...IT DOESNT TAKE LONG TO CALL THE ROLE"
hope you have a great year and hope to see you on the bourse
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
monsterman: don't say anything to them. The last thing I want to do is lobby for recognition. If the coins aren't great enough to overcome an apparent bias in their award system, so be it. If you want to lobby for a set, lobby for Cardinal's fine Bust Dollar set - it's as World Class as it gets.....
ok...glad you said something...i was going to give them an ear full today
speaking of the cardinal`s set.....you should see the coin he just added......a no brainer 66 in a 65 holder...infact i was thinking of it when i talked about the "game " and the fees.......the services absolutely will not creat 175,000 worth of value to the coin for a measly 40 one hundred dollar grading fees....sorta goofy but thats the game.....thus more credence to my" time in the market" theory..... but in time they will have to "grade flation" it to it`s proper grade which is a 66
ttyl monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
the services absolutely will not creat 175,000 worth of value to the coin for a measly 40 one hundred dollar grading fees
Wonder if that's why NGC does those little stickers on coins that encourage NCS? That way they get a percentage of the coin's value in an upgrade vs the little ol grading fee..... smart, eh?
I have a feeling, MM, that we got off on the wrong foot because my Monsters went with the mini-sets, intact. Sorry we couldn't have a cherry picken' good time. I know the $s were there, but I just wanted to keep the sets whole for "numismatic's sake"..... cool?
I have a feeling, MM, that we got off on the wrong foot>>>>i couldnt agree more
because my Monsters went with the mini-sets, intact.>>>>i heard they did...then i saw they did....and cried
Sorry we couldn't have a cherry picken' good time.>>>>that is a shame
I know the $s were there, but I just wanted to keep the sets whole for "numismatic's sake"..... cool?>>>>>>i totally understand ...i have a `47 btw set that is out of this world and i couldnt possibly think of breaking it....the coin god would kill me for it
ttyl monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
shep`s invitational was a great time.....so many monsters to choose from.....and the funny thing we all got what we wanted.....it was mind boggeling to see that many coins hidden away for so many years...if you`ll remember i "pulled" the #1 chip and picked first .....but there were so many monsters and we each could only take 1 coin per round it sorta worked out for all.......i cant wait for the second invitational
c u there or on the bourse
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
This thread makes me yawn. It sounds like a kindergarten sand box contest. Wake up to reality, there are BETTER Commem sets still out there.
There are at least 20-30 major high grade multi-colored Monster colored GEM sets out there in private hands. Because they are not yet in the finest holders doesn't mean they won't be. I know exactly where 5 sets are that none of the main stream has seen. NOTE EVERYONE wants to list their set. Many "old timers" are in it for the colors-NOT the ego of the registry.
I would also say that more coins trade privately than at auction. Example: I just bought and sold a MONSTER multicolored Cleveland in PCGS MS67 that RIVALS the MS68 or ANY wild colored one that exists. It went from the collector to me to another collector. This happens more frequently than people know.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that only a small group of "elite" dealers handle wild commems or that anyone building a monster set will have access to them-thats BS. I know I've got monster coins scattered about the country from the past 20 years of my handing wild commems (there is one deal worth OVER $500,000.00 that is probably buried for another 20-50 years thats really wild, wild colors). And think about this, I wasn't the only dealer who loved monster colored Commems-there probably were 5-10 other dealers you never heard of who placed great coins.
All this childishness about building the finest set makes me laugh. Who the heck really cares? There are MONSTER Commem sets out there at LESSER grades that could have blown away the #1+2 registry sets in terms of overall quality and eye appeal. And I'm not even taking into consideration the NGC graded ones or the coins that aren't graded yet. Build the damn sets because you think the coins are pretty and rare. Let the coins do the talking. If you buy great coins, they will take care of themselves in the end!
And please monsterman, type in readable paragraghs!
'
Laura Sperber
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
The market of late--seeing a PCGS65 1952 Carver going for over $900 at Fun--has got me thinking about the first Carver set I put together. From what I can see from the images, that Fun coin was nice, but almost average in it's "monsterdom."
I rarely ever spend much time regreting the sale of coins, but I'm begining to really wish I still had the set I put together. All the coins were graded NGC65 and they had wild toning. There was one PCGS65--the 1953-D from the Shepherd collection. I have said many times it was the least desirable coin of the lot, and Larry himself told me he found the 53-D Carver one of the hardest coins to find nice for his entire commem set.
I hope that set is out there intact somewhere. I'd be very curious.
My point, if I have one in this post, is that while a couple of those coins came from the "Rolls-Royce" dealers of colorful commems, most of them I found by keeping my eyes and mind open. A couple came from auctions with poor images, a couple from little shops were the owners thought Carvers were junk... they came from a number of different sources.
So whereas, I appreciate the advice of being "hooked up", being "in the loop" with the movers and shakers, the thought that all the best coins will come from a small pool of dealers, I don't think will always be true. I think Laura makes a point that there are people and coins out there in the woodwork that move in quiet and mysterious ways. There always will be.
I will make the caveat that my 65 graded set of Carvers may not be on the level of playing field that "the big boys" inhabit. But, I know this, if I still had that set, and I offered it to the people who can appreciate outstanding comemms... there would be a few offers.
...knowing that BTWs and WCs are only done by a handful of people... ... understanding these coins takes some time and study. As I have said previously, you, Clank, entered at the right time. The timing may be good now, as well, as prices have not realized their true potential, imho. Good luck to all who realize the potential growth of these coins, and search for the rare beauties available in these two series.
>>>most of them I found by keeping my eyes and mind open. A couple came from auctions with poor images, a couple from little shops where the owners thought Carvers were junk... they came from a number of different sources>>>>
thats exactly right clank......in the `80s none of the grading services had a clue how to grade commems.......so they put 65 on all of them...evrey once in a while they would 66 one....67 was unheard of....so all this time he who hoarded ....slaughtered `em.......i hoarded them for 2 reasons.....first was the color.....as little as 10 years ago you could buy monsters for 20% over sheet and the sellers felt like they were taking advantage of us dummies......all the 67 wc and 68 btw today were all in 65 holders 15 years ago ....all with a cost factor of under $150....now it has come to light ..their real worth...thus my statement of "if you spend time in the market and have great knowledge ...you will win ".....3 of the pcgs w/c 67s out there today were mine....and they have found new homes and they sure were monsters .......but as you can deduce ...there are better ones out there just as laura said.....you know id never sell the "last word " of any date ...just the dups
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
In the early ninties there were very few Carvers certified above 65 by either PCGS or NGC.
Then in about the space of two months a slew of 66's were graded by NGC. I saw a number of these coins and was really skeptical about them. Most of the ones I saw were white, and not particularly outstanding either for luster or eye appeal. Most of them were either 52P's or 53S'. But there were a handful of the tougher dates also.
not really but there is a reason.........its the way i go thru boxes........the coin or the holder size ( being "old fellas ") has to stop me...that way i see more volume......so white w/c coins would be noticed......as far as the luster......i didnt know they had any :-) lol
seriously .....now white btw coins stop me all the time as they have monster luster.....and i do collect stone white btw coins with headlight luster.....and have some nice 67* coins
back to w/c coins...i have noticed they are getting harder to find.....in the auctions they used to bunch some whities together with a monster to move them...and id buy the lot and dump the whities and hoard the monster...of the seven 67 coins ive made so far 4 of them were bought like that...and the only reason im mentioning it here is those days are gone now
ttyl monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Commem Folks, I remember seeing at the 2002 ANA in New York, at NGC's table, a spectacularly toned 50 piece type set. If anyone remembers, how does that set compare to the top? I just couldn't imagine a better toned set. EVERY single coin was amazing.
<< <i>As has been mentioned, what a good thread. This discussion could last quite a while... >>
This has been a very fun thread to read.
There have been a number of threads on commems in particular lately that I've found interesting.
BigE started one about three Vermont's recently graded 67 in the coin forum. There was a good BTW & Carver thread in honor of Martin Luther King's birthday. Stman started one involving the color and grade of a Roanoke.
I find Commem discussions usually bring about broader discussions of coins and the market as a whole.
I find it all very interesting and love the participation.
"Broader discussions..." Yep, every time... Commems are cool in a number of ways, ie., learning about 50-144 coins and all their nuances, history, collectors, etc. (The history of these coins, their inception, political volleying and sales, are really very, very interesting...) The commem collector market seems to be very "selective" and "individual" to a point, in that each set has its own "personality", which makes it quite fun to follow (even if not personally involved) and obviously chock full of "characters" collecting, which makes it all very much fun!!
>>>Commem Folks, I remember seeing at the 2002 ANA in New York, at NGC's table, a spectacularly toned 50 piece type set. If anyone remembers, how does that set compare to the top? I just couldn't imagine a better toned set. EVERY single coin was amazing.>>>
why thankyou seth......i have been hard at it and to tell you a little about history...that very ana in 2002 is when i decided to go to a 144 piece set,....at the auction i added 20 monster coins to my set...which is unheard of but there is a reason...i have been chasing that " secret set " that was auctioned for 10 years as the guy who put it together was consistently saning the bourse for 0ver 15 years...i tied to buy it several times but to no avail....but i did get 20 coins from it...one of which was the connecticut in 68 ( not on display at the ngc table because i didnt own it yet )....as per reg-coin .....the nuances.....well its a 68 because it fits all the perameters of a monster but something i learned with that coin is there is a worm in the knot hole of the charter oak and i have seen many 67 coins that i thought were 68s or higher.....but the nuance is....you have to be able to see the worm....and since its the only 68 at any service i have never seen the worm before until now....which inturn now tells me why none of the other many 67s i have seen werent in fact graded 68
when i did my morgan set i knew all the nuances....but they were nothing in comparison to the commem series as there are 50 different designs and 94 different mint marks ect
seth......one other thing of note.....the gold norse in pr68 that was on display in ny needs to go in for a pr69 grade but might of got lost in all the color of all the other monsters....it was right next to the monster blue, green and purple pf68 columbian ....which being the first commem ever made and the grandaddy of them all sort of stole the show
ttyl
monsterman
rc...
>>>>Commems are cool in a number of ways, ie., learning about 50-144 coins and all their nuances>>>>you can say that again.........gezz there is so much to know.....and realizing opportunity is tuff to say the least
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Top pops to Portland? Contact WC before they ask to commit... A pop. 1 Albany, all by itself - pcgs ms68... Grant w/ Star (p7)... possibly the best of a few at the top. '36s Rhode Island (p7). Rare as rare can be... 50 pc'ers don't care, but 144'ers know this rarity... ms68 Iowa, best (technically, imho) of all the ms68s... et al...
Comments
Wondercoin
Depends on what you're looking for....
>>>I thought it was slightly superior, until I figured out that they only gave awards to classic sets with a majority NGC. I felt that was deceptive and even more restrictive than limiting coins to PCGS holders so I pulled my sets off their Registry>>>
i dont know really what to say as i know ( as most do ) what you have......you really do have some great pieces....talk about rare history...really cool.....i am sure it was an over-sight of some sort.....additionally if it were me id feel strange saying something to them .....so i will
i am sure the selections were done by an " underling " and proposed to mark et al...........then ok`ed by the 3 mentioned ( mark-rick - ??? )....in any event
*****************here are props to you tdn*****************
your collection aside...........the insight that you bring to all who read your posts are what put you in ....well ....as bum used to say about earl campbell
" IF HE IS NOT IN A CLASS BY HIMSELF...IT DOESNT TAKE LONG TO CALL THE ROLE"
hope you have a great year and hope to see you on the bourse
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
speaking of the cardinal`s set.....you should see the coin he just added......a no brainer 66 in a 65 holder...infact i was thinking of it when i talked about the "game " and the fees.......the services absolutely will not creat 175,000 worth of value to the coin for a measly 40 one hundred dollar grading fees....sorta goofy but thats the game.....thus more credence to my" time in the market" theory..... but in time they will have to "grade flation" it to it`s proper grade which is a 66
ttyl
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Wonder if that's why NGC does those little stickers on coins that encourage NCS? That way they get a percentage of the coin's value in an upgrade vs the little ol grading fee..... smart, eh?
<< <i>Wonder if that's why NGC does those little stickers on coins that encourage NCS? >>
A whole different subject than this thread--but I have to say, I find that practice irritating beyond measure.
>>>>>sorry for the intrusion.
Clankeye
I guess it's all about $.
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I have a feeling, MM, that we got off on the wrong foot>>>>i couldnt agree more
because my Monsters went with the mini-sets, intact.>>>>i heard they did...then i saw they did....and cried
Sorry we couldn't have a cherry picken' good time.>>>>that is a shame
I know the $s were there, but I just wanted to keep the sets whole for "numismatic's sake"..... cool?>>>>>>i totally understand ...i have a `47 btw set that is out of this world and i couldnt possibly think of breaking it....the coin god would kill me for it
ttyl
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
shep`s invitational was a great time.....so many monsters to choose from.....and the funny thing we all got what we wanted.....it was mind boggeling to see that many coins hidden away for so many years...if you`ll remember i "pulled" the #1 chip and picked first .....but there were so many monsters and we each could only take 1 coin per round it sorta worked out for all.......i cant wait for the second invitational
c u there or on the bourse
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
There are at least 20-30 major high grade multi-colored Monster colored GEM sets out there in private hands. Because they are not yet in the finest holders doesn't mean they won't be. I know exactly where 5 sets are that none of the main stream has seen. NOTE EVERYONE wants to list their set. Many "old timers" are in it for the colors-NOT the ego of the registry.
I would also say that more coins trade privately than at auction. Example: I just bought and sold a MONSTER multicolored Cleveland in PCGS MS67 that RIVALS the MS68 or ANY wild colored one that exists. It went from the collector to me to another collector. This happens more frequently than people know.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that only a small group of "elite" dealers handle wild commems or that anyone building a monster set will have access to them-thats BS. I know I've got monster coins scattered about the country from the past 20 years of my handing wild commems (there is one deal worth OVER $500,000.00 that is probably buried for another 20-50 years thats really wild, wild colors). And think about this, I wasn't the only dealer who loved monster colored Commems-there probably were 5-10 other dealers you never heard of who placed great coins.
All this childishness about building the finest set makes me laugh. Who the heck really cares? There are MONSTER Commem sets out there at LESSER grades that could have blown away the #1+2 registry sets in terms of overall quality and eye appeal. And I'm not even taking into consideration the NGC graded ones or the coins that aren't graded yet. Build the damn sets because you think the coins are pretty and rare. Let the coins do the talking. If you buy great coins, they will take care of themselves in the end!
And please monsterman, type in readable paragraghs!
'
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
I rarely ever spend much time regreting the sale of coins, but I'm begining to really wish I still had the set I put together. All the coins were graded NGC65 and they had wild toning. There was one PCGS65--the 1953-D from the Shepherd collection. I have said many times it was the least desirable coin of the lot, and Larry himself told me he found the 53-D Carver one of the hardest coins to find nice for his entire commem set.
I hope that set is out there intact somewhere. I'd be very curious.
My point, if I have one in this post, is that while a couple of those coins came from the "Rolls-Royce" dealers of colorful commems, most of them I found by keeping my eyes and mind open. A couple came from auctions with poor images, a couple from little shops were the owners thought Carvers were junk... they came from a number of different sources.
So whereas, I appreciate the advice of being "hooked up", being "in the loop" with the movers and shakers, the thought that all the best coins will come from a small pool of dealers, I don't think will always be true. I think Laura makes a point that there are people and coins out there in the woodwork that move in quiet and mysterious ways. There always will be.
I will make the caveat that my 65 graded set of Carvers may not be on the level of playing field that "the big boys" inhabit. But, I know this, if I still had that set, and I offered it to the people who can appreciate outstanding comemms... there would be a few offers.
Clankeye
As I have said previously, you, Clank, entered at the right time. The timing may be good now, as well, as prices have not realized their true potential, imho. Good luck to all who realize the potential growth of these coins, and search for the rare beauties available in these two series.
And please monsterman, type in readable paragraghs!
This is one of the best lines yet . . . "readable paragraghs."
thats exactly right clank......in the `80s none of the grading services had a clue how to grade commems.......so they put 65 on all of them...evrey once in a while they would 66 one....67 was unheard of....so all this time he who hoarded ....slaughtered `em.......i hoarded them for 2 reasons.....first was the color.....as little as 10 years ago you could buy monsters for 20% over sheet and the sellers felt like they were taking advantage of us dummies......all the 67 wc and 68 btw today were all in 65 holders 15 years ago ....all with a cost factor of under $150....now it has come to light ..their real worth...thus my statement of "if you spend time in the market and have great knowledge ...you will win ".....3 of the pcgs w/c 67s out there today were mine....and they have found new homes and they sure were monsters .......but as you can deduce ...there are better ones out there just as laura said.....you know id never sell the "last word " of any date ...just the dups
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
In the early ninties there were very few Carvers certified above 65 by either PCGS or NGC.
Then in about the space of two months a slew of 66's were graded by NGC. I saw a number of these coins and was really skeptical about them. Most of the ones I saw were white, and not particularly outstanding either for luster or eye appeal. Most of them were either 52P's or 53S'. But there were a handful of the tougher dates also.
Do you remember this happening?
Clankeye
>>>Do you remember this happening? >>>>
not really but there is a reason.........its the way i go thru boxes........the coin or the holder size ( being "old fellas ") has to stop me...that way i see more volume......so white w/c coins would be noticed......as far as the luster......i didnt know they had any :-) lol
seriously .....now white btw coins stop me all the time as they have monster luster.....and i do collect stone white btw coins with headlight luster.....and have some nice 67* coins
back to w/c coins...i have noticed they are getting harder to find.....in the auctions they used to bunch some whities together with a monster to move them...and id buy the lot and dump the whities and hoard the monster...of the seven 67 coins ive made so far 4 of them were bought like that...and the only reason im mentioning it here is those days are gone now
ttyl
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>and the only reason im mentioning it here is those days are gone now >>
So true... so true.
Clankeye
Seth
Edited to add: Its well worth the trip over there to see it.
<< <i>As has been mentioned, what a good thread. This discussion could last quite a while... >>
This has been a very fun thread to read.
There have been a number of threads on commems in particular lately that I've found interesting.
BigE started one about three Vermont's recently graded 67 in the coin forum. There was a good BTW & Carver thread in honor of Martin Luther King's birthday. Stman started one involving the color and grade of a Roanoke.
I find Commem discussions usually bring about broader discussions of coins and the market as a whole.
I find it all very interesting and love the participation.
Clankeye
Commems are cool in a number of ways, ie., learning about 50-144 coins and all their nuances, history, collectors, etc. (The history of these coins, their inception, political volleying and sales, are really very, very interesting...)
The commem collector market seems to be very "selective" and "individual" to a point, in that each set has its own "personality", which makes it quite fun to follow (even if not personally involved) and obviously chock full of "characters" collecting, which makes it all very much fun!!
>>>Commem Folks, I remember seeing at the 2002 ANA in New York, at NGC's table, a spectacularly toned 50 piece type set. If anyone remembers, how does that set compare to the top? I just couldn't imagine a better toned set. EVERY single coin was amazing.>>>
why thankyou seth......i have been hard at it and to tell you a little about history...that very ana in 2002 is when i decided to go to a 144 piece set,....at the auction i added 20 monster coins to my set...which is unheard of but there is a reason...i have been chasing that " secret set " that was auctioned for 10 years as the guy who put it together was consistently saning the bourse for 0ver 15 years...i tied to buy it several times but to no avail....but i did get 20 coins from it...one of which was the connecticut in 68 ( not on display at the ngc table because i didnt own it yet )....as per reg-coin .....the nuances.....well its a 68 because it fits all the perameters of a monster but something i learned with that coin is there is a worm in the knot hole of the charter oak and i have seen many 67 coins that i thought were 68s or higher.....but the nuance is....you have to be able to see the worm....and since its the only 68 at any service i have never seen the worm before until now....which inturn now tells me why none of the other many 67s i have seen werent in fact graded 68
when i did my morgan set i knew all the nuances....but they were nothing in comparison to the commem series as there are 50 different designs and 94 different mint marks ect
seth......one other thing of note.....the gold norse in pr68 that was on display in ny needs to go in for a pr69 grade but might of got lost in all the color of all the other monsters....it was right next to the monster blue, green and purple pf68 columbian ....which being the first commem ever made and the grandaddy of them all sort of stole the show
ttyl
monsterman
rc...
>>>>Commems are cool in a number of ways, ie., learning about 50-144 coins and all their nuances>>>>you can say that again.........gezz there is so much to know.....and realizing opportunity is tuff to say the least
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
A pop. 1 Albany, all by itself - pcgs ms68...
Grant w/ Star (p7)... possibly the best of a few at the top.
'36s Rhode Island (p7). Rare as rare can be... 50 pc'ers don't care, but 144'ers know this rarity...
ms68 Iowa, best (technically, imho) of all the ms68s...
et al...