*******the best ever*****

monsterman

i have a problem and maybe someone here can explain it......i just went to dallas to see the heller commem collection....and i was very disappointed ( i was warned but i had to see for mydelf )....i have seen shepherd`s.....and rothenberger`s ...and highfil`s.....all 3 blow the heller collection away.....while the 3 i just mentioned were a couple of coins away on grades ( 67 vrs 66 here or there )..... the monster color and quality of those 3 smoke the "#1 all time finest " away..............they smoke it away in value ( you will see that in the auction prices realized at fun ).....they smoke it in the look...and thus the demand..........its not even close...

so someone please tell me how can this be so.....because i have to tell you if they were all crossed to ngc...the other 3 i mentioned would have recieved many NGC stars* and thus bonus points on the weighting system which in turn all 3 would of out ranked the heller collection which they rightfully do.....and believe its not even close


so someone please tell me how this oversight can happen

roadrunner

Monsterman, good to see you stop in to say hello. I miss your potent opinions on the state of the registries.

The beauty of the slab registry mania is that you can literally "buy" your way into the top pointed set without knowing anything about what you are doing. Isn't this great? Any well-heeled newbie can come in and put together the best numbers. Of course everyone knows that without comparing the coins themselves the numbers don't mean all that much. An MS67 or even MS68 coin can be a dog that no one wants. It ends up in the newbie's set unless he gets a sharp dealer to help him put it together.

This is not an oversight. A top pointed set can be put together and you can call it the finest set of all time. But the rhetoric really means the top graded set with the most points. It has nothing to do with it being the best quality set of all time. Therefore, the #5 set could easily beat out the #1 set in quality and value if one were to compare them side by side. The grading services thrive on this distinction. It would be similar to picking the world series winner each year by their payroll rather than by the wins-losses. Everyone knows the difference..except the newbie. And I'm sure in many cases even the seasoned collector or investor knows he doesn't have the best coin but only has the best insert. He's willing to accept that shortcoming for bragging rights to the top set.

roadrunner

tradedollarnut

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder....

and in some cases, it's only on the holder but not in the holder - like on that certain 1963 thing.

Steve

TDN, that is why I am SO happy to own a complete set of Lincoln proof cents. They are NOT the finest by registry standards, but they are complete and they "look nice" to me, and to me, that is all that counts. Steve

wondercoin

" the monster color and quality of those 3 smoke the "#1 all time finest " away"

Monster: Welcome back

As you know, Heller sought original Commems (mostly white with rim color) with AN EMPHASIS ON TECHNICAL PERFECTION. HE WAS NOT BUILDING A COLOR SET OF COMMEMS LIKE YOU. Yes, he ended up with some cool color coins along the way (the coolest toned including a couple Wash Carver specimens IMHO, which you never got to see), but, the general theme of the collection was fresh, original coins with some rim color. Hey - you might not like Heller's Alabama in brilliant MS66, but, others will. Or, the Grant with Star - Legend sold Steve the coin through me and essentially told us it was the nicest Grant with Star they had ever seen (albeit not "monster color"!! One of the coolest coins I have ever seen is a Columbian half Dollar in NGC-MS68 blast white, which resides in possibly the most spectacular current color Commem set out there in the slot of the Columbian. IT IS ONE OF THE OWNER'S FAVORITE COINS. My simple point being, IMHO, a very respectable portion of the entire Heller collection being offered by Heritage are spectacular specimens, period end (which Steve acquired directly from many of the top Commem dealers in the country). The MANY super cool coins in that collection will be shown following the conclusion of the sale. Take Heller's SESQUI in PCGS-MS66 for example, which I personally believe may be the Ex-Shepherd coin although not mentioned as such by Heritage - man do I love that jewel (this one being a Pinnacle sale to Steve as I recall). And, the Long Island is REAL color!!

See you at the auction!

Wondercoin

tgilliams

SMOKE THEM

DAM

<< <i>...the general theme of the collection was fresh, original coins with some rim color. >>



Two types of collecting are being discussed here. One type is collecting coins subjected environmental changes resulting in magnificant color patterns. The other is type are coins that have that just minted (original) look. Different strokes for different folks.

Neither is right or wrong.

RegistryCoin

Larry Shepherd, Laura and George, Katy and Todd, Larry and Mike, Harry, and other major commem dealers, as well as Mitch, have been able to find for me, some of the nicest commems available within my parameters.
"Nicest" for me, was the cleanest coin I could find, without distracting toning. I love a monster toned coin, but not when I can appreciate a cleaner, and possibly higher grade one, that really fits more pleasingly into the set. My desire was to find the technically nicer coin.
I believe that that was accomplished. Thanks for the comments.

mdwoods

I wish I would have gotten to see the set. I liked toners and blast white coins. It's quite an accomplishment to put a set like his together and I congratulate him for it.

braddick

Admittingly, as much as I love color- even dark, encrusted color, I enjoy these early Commemoratives with lighter, pastel colors and/or bright, silvery fields and devices. Some of these coins have "busy" designs that toning can easily distract from.

Original skinned, undipped, lightly rim toned Commemoratives are an attractive endeavor and a somewhat difficult one in todays market of "NEON" "WILD" "CRAZY" "Rainbow" coins.

Just a thought.

tradedollarnut

i have a problem and maybe someone here can explain it

It's very technical, but in layman's terms it's called "complete lack of capitalization and punctuation".



edited to add: Just funnin' with ya, monsterman!

monsterman

well...i see i struck a nerve...or should i say nerves

my point was to get some thinking going and i did do that

roadrunner...good to see you...and that is one of my points....you hit it on the head

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The beauty of the slab registry mania is that you can literally "buy" your way into the top pointed set without knowing anything about what you are doing. Isn't this great? Any well-heeled newbie can come in and put together the best numbers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

a case in point there are 13 texas coins in the series and a 8,000 investment can buy all 67 coins.....and beat the guy with twelve 67 coins and a monster 66......cant do that at ngc as the star* carries more weight.....no one 66 star * cant carry you over the hump....but the star* tends to cluster in groups...if you know what i mean

in fact as you said roadrunner a well heeled guy can knock out the set in short order if he wanted to....but i can assure you he will lose money at selling time....remember my cure for that...remember when i challenged bob to a 200,000 bet......he put his morgan set together in a little over 2 years.....i said ok lets both put up 100k and send all our coins in for grading...the guy with the most upgrades and least downgrades takes all..........well you know he wouldnt do it and that darn mike c who bought a lot of my coins at auction ....at last mention he had the upgrade count over 50....oh and yes all 21 ngc coins crossed ( had to cross em...the high end dollar market was controled be pcgs vigens) ............poor old bob`s 2 years of searching cost him $$$$ when he went to sell...in fact some where on the market for 2 years after he pushed the sell button...mine went bye bye in a day......maybe its because they were hand picked over 2 decades...ya think :-)


the best ever......arent these the same coins that have been around for decades...they arent making new ones are they ???so i deduced 2 things

1) yes they are the same coins and sheps 66 coins are now 67....and his 67 coins are now 68..............same coins ...higher grades....thus a new "all time finest" is annointed......the truth is sheps is the all time finest...and there is only one way to beat it...and here it is

2) if you spend enough time in the market ( not 5 or 10 years ) ...you can then have enough shots at most all the monsters there are and then its possible to beat shep...just possible i said.....you have to be a really good numismatist...have a lot of $$...have a lot of brains and savey....be in all the right places...be connected.....have a lot of contacts..and you have to go to a lot of shows to do all that...and then it can be done....and beating shep is my goal...it is very long term and i have been doing it longer than anyone out there and with a big enough checkbook to get it done


so with all due respect...that is the way it is.....i know where rothenberger ranks....and i passed him a year ago....i know where highfil ranks ...and i passed him 2 years ago....i know where all the players rank......and in time i have a shot at shep......the big boost was a set i have been trying to buy for 10 years broke last year.....thats where all of the monsters went i couldnt cut off...so i knew where they were all along.........and boom.....it was WONDEFULL when it broke......and thats what put me in seeing distance of shep.....ive known for years it was up to that set and knowing exactly what coins i needed to further distance my set from the field


did the same thing in dollars.....rob lehman was cutting me off for a few years ( yea i had the jack lee connection and added 50 coins there but 20% were slipping away) to this kanasa city doctor who hired rob to do his thing ...as fate would have it the set showed up in my room at fun and all those cutt-offs came right back to me..ALL IN TACK......oh i was so thrilled..........so you see you have to be in the right place at the right time....and you have to go to shows


that is one beautifull white columbian in 68 mitch mentioned and i hated to let it go but....i found the topper thus she went bye bye....and yes i have let 3 of my antietams in 68 go because i have their big brother in 69...they all came from the same card.....and yes i have been leaking out some of my hoard of w/c coins ....and you know i keep the toppers......sure i have made pop one coins at pcgs...i sent coins to pcgs to get pop 1....but only if i have a topper ...when i make it.....its off to the pop1 farm they go for the pcgs registry guys to buy.....us poor little dummies registered at ncg feell like rodney dangerfield..........naw not really....the players know...ask shep..he knows..ask kenny......he knows.....actually i love the ngc market

in conclusion

now think about his..............fact..there is gradeflation and both services do it......fact there is an active crack out market where there are guys do nothing but crack coins....fact pcgs has done a better job in the past of marketing ( they are slipping and ngc is closing the gap imho ) thus pcgs coins ( bid on a sight unseen basis not sight seen...as all dealers will pay for what they can sell and thats all i buy ) are worth more due to increased demand...well maybe...or is it that ngc properly grades coins and pcgs undergrades them on purpose to increase submissions thus giving the professional dealer the edge over the collector at sell time where the dealer can pick the shot upgrades he wants out of your box and leave your mistakes....ah...got you thinking now......

well here is how it works.........i buy a lot of "didnt work" coins ( failed to upgrade today ...with the crackout guy saying it could/should of upgraded )from dealers who give up.....because i have time in the market...and in time with grade inflation it will...thus time is my friend and the dealers enemy

so a lot of guys try ngc to see if it will work there....when it doesnt i buy it...you see they need to turn their money now...and dont have time to re-resubmit to pcgs so they leave it in the ngc holder

you see these profesionals arent retail guys...they sell there upgrades to the dealer trade....who inturn sells them to the collectors...and because of demand pcgs gets the nod and the collector pays more money...in fact the upgrader takes abuse from retailers when they say...where am i going to go with that???i need a reduced price................thus i keep connected and always look for a crackout guy needing money......i buy all his ngc no upgrades and leave all his pcgs coins that where a grade less yesterday in his box for novices to buy...thus you see my 200,000 bet....make sense eh

so let me leave now and leave you with a word of advice

time in the market

a good eye

and you will win

oh....one more thing.....its my cardinal rule....NEVER BUY A COIN YOU WOULD BE AFRAID TO CRACK OUT............makes all the sense in the world now doesnt it

yea id be afraid to crack that pcgs upgrade that crackout guy just made....maybe not in 2 or 4 years but wouldnt crack it now...now that ngc coin...its PQ and its cheaper.......the crackout guy had it there for a reason.....those are the one to buy



oh i know what your saying..what if he just made it at ngc!!!!!!!geez....and pgcs wouldnt anoint it ...YET!!PLEASE PAY MORE RESUBMITTING FEES ...then i would the short end of the stick......

*********not if you followed my cardinal rule****************

roadrunner

Thanks for the update Monsterman. It pretty much goes along with my experience too. I just don't have the steady stream of contacts/access that you have to that PQ stuff or else there'd be less of it for others

roadrunner

rainbowroosie

I love this discussion, I play this same tune with roosie guys all the time....Nick, Mitch maybe someone else or two, may have higher graded coins than mine. But I'd love to lay them side by side and let everyone express which coins they prefer....Beauty is in the eye of the beholder (read COLLECTOR)....That's what makes this so interesting and provocative......why not have a great Commem Showdown and display coins side by side....that's the plan for roosie addicts at Long Beach!!...Display your coins in PUBLIC and let your PEERS set the tone of the discussion...you may be pleased, angry, or suicidal...sounds like the makings of a new Commem challenge to me!!!!!

monsterman

roadrunner and rainbowroosie and tdn

its guys like you who make a very stable market ...guys armed with knowledge and passion.....guys who are in the know and understand the market....tdn has a very large checkbook but also very large knowledgeand passion.... and he plays the game on stable ground because there is no fear with knowledge....he always respects the knowledge in front of the checkbook....and it is with that knowledge that we all can play......

a knowledgeable collector regardless of his checkbook ...really enjoys other knowledgeable collectors for we all know what it takes

and i love going to longbeach and playing show and tell.....i cant get enough of looking into my buddies boxes to look at their art.....i love when a highschool music teacher who has the knowledge and time in the market brings his box to show me and others at longbeach

i loved telling him ..." you know that lafayette in 65 in the auction well its the best 65 i have ever seen in a 65 holder ( no i didnt tell him anything he already didnt know ...but maybe i might of reafirmed his thinking ) .....this is your one chance in 10 years to rip the coin as the upgraders wont think it will work and the trade doesnt have the knowledge to pay up for it"...i loved watching him nervously bid...i didnt like seeing that someone else saw it too and made him pay double 65 ask for it( paif 16,000 for it....in fact he counciled with his wife and left his hand in the air .......and won the coin....i thought i might of influenced him too much but...oh well it was my opinion...and sometimes you pay too much for the right coin...but you always pay too much for the wrong coin.....anyway it was a moose and by far the nicest pcgs 65 i have ever seen and i told him so................update...the next longbeach at our next show and tell ( he never said anything ) i pulled out the next monster and boom there it was in a pcgs 66 holder.......boom instant 12,000 market profit for the music teacher..........YEAH KNOWLEDGE AND PASSION.....but i had many emotions too...first i was happy he asked my opinion....i was happy he won it...i was sad he paid thru the nose for it ( he told me he wouldnt pay over 13,000 for it but followed his passion ).....i was happy to see it in his hand and the gleam in his eye as he showed it off.......and i was thrilled to death he got it into a 66 holder ....so you see i am alive...as i have passion


i know you guys have many stories just like this one...and the more the merrier so keep up the hunt as

KNOWLEDGE IS KING.....and kings you all are!!!!!!!!

Dahlonega

Knowledge
Adequate capital
Contacts/Presence
Time/not impatient
Passion...the catalyst...but to evolve to the next level you have to remember to please yourself and share with others...it's about the enjoyment not money...

roadrunner

Monsterman, the same situation happened to me at one of last year's LB auctions. It was down to me and another dealer on a shot 66 rarer date seated half. I was ready to bow out but a voice from a dealer (whose opinion I value highly) sitting behind me whispered, "go for it." I stretched a bit and got the coin on the next bid. While I paid strongly for the piece as an old holdered PQ+ 65, I was pleasantly surprised to get a PCGS MS66 on it 6 months later when I sent it in for regrade. Without the support of some fellow enthusiasts the ending may have been different.

roadrunner

tradedollarnut

let's not forget opportunity.....sometimes the most important of them all!

monsterman has great points. In a perfect world, one would always acquire the monster coins. But in this imperfect world, one sometimes has to make compromises. After all, how much is a bit of color really worth? Is one grade on a common date coin really worth a house? Even worse, if color got the coin the grade, is it really worthwhile to pay another premium on top of the grade for color?

Sometimes I shake my head at what goes on....

rainbowroosie

Ah, but when it has color AND surfaces, then you have a GEM!!!!!!!

monsterman

tdn

let's not forget opportunity.....sometimes the most important of them all!>>>>>you are exactly right

>>>monsterman has great points. In a perfect world, one would always acquire the monster coins. But in this imperfect world, one sometimes has to make compromises. After all, how much is a bit of color really worth? >>>>

well...here is my formula.....i dont mind being the guy buying the coin as long as there are an adequate number of buyers not far behind me..... the 2 guys who slugged it out for that 53-s franklin ( i think it was ) a few years ago was stupid...80,000+ was crazy ....which was affirmed a year later when it came back on the market for a 40,000 loss for the high bidder....you know what i mean...i dont mind being a little crazy as long as i have company...and not just one or two guys

>>>Is one grade on a common date coin really worth a house? Even worse, if color got the coin the grade, is it really worthwhile to pay another premium on top of the grade for color?>>>>>

well that depends on a case by case basis.......you play in an area that is so rare that there just isnt any other coin.....and the joy in owning it is just that ...its the only one...or one of 3.....in the commem market there is much more supply thus quality is defined by grade and the look ...aka eye appeal....thus we can have a 1,200 norfolk in 68 and a 10,000 in 68.....the 1,200 coin will be a 68 for years to come and the 10,000 in 68 will be a 69 soon and thus be crowned "go to the head of the class"

all this i know you know but was said to help others

another helping thought

this gradeflation...it sure is hard for some to understand but think about this...in actuallity the services are ranking coins...thats right over a period of years ( the services would like it to last as long as they can and so far have made it last since 1986 )...but thats what they are doing ....trying to annoint coins in order from the best on down...thus eliminating the zeros on the pop report....thus sheps this or that will always rank amoung the top few coins...in 1992 they were 66 now 67 ect...thus he will always have the best unless you stay in the market a long time and get more shots than he did....now thats my theory and i think its accurate....believe me i know his coins...and everyonce in a while a coin comes out of the woodwork...and i simply say ...ahhh there one he missed or never got a shot at...i know them when i see them

now in tdn`s case some of his coins it doesnt make any difference if the holder says 66 or 67 because its widely known that the coin is the finest...period....however that is not so in commems or other series due to larger populations

now let me contradict what i just said in regards to >>>>some of his coins it doesnt make any difference if the holder says 66 or 67 because its widely known that the coin is the finest...period....i have a few of these one of a kind too.....one is the Remmington coin...and it is and always will be the father of all commems forever....as it was the first commem made...the Remmington typewritter company purchased the coin from the chicago expo in 1892 for the then absurd price of 10,000 ( over a million today in present value ...and no i didnt pay that nor is it worth that but 15% of that though was a bargin to me ) ...it is in a pr 68* holder and is the cornerstone of my commem collection ( i have a pic of it in the ngc registry under "type coins " ...50 piece commem set...i want it in the proper holder because it should be...so if tdn wants to upgrade a coin from a pop1 to a pop 1 twice removed i surely understand and props to him

alrighty then

ttyl
monsterman

Typetone

Great thread, but jeez, I feel like I'm watching sharks swimming in the water.

Greg

Clankeye

Coins as a contact sport. Pad up and bring the smelling salts.


Clankeye

BigE

monsterman, I don't know who you are or how nice your commems. may be or how much you really think you know, but to criticize someones collection publically before it comes up for action seems to tell me one thing for sure, and that is that you have absolutely no manners. When your collection comes up for sale don't whine when people stand up and say they are dogs----------------------------BigE

tradedollarnut

monsterman, I don't know who you are or how nice your commems. may be or how much you really think you know, but to criticize someones collection publically before it comes up for action seems to tell me one thing for sure, and that is that you have absolutely no manners.

Once a linebacker, always a linebacker....




When your collection comes up for sale don't whine when people stand up and say they are dogs

Nope - they're not!

Clankeye

Monsterman's coins remind me of a line from the movie Pirates of the Caribbean:

"You're off the edge of the map now, Jack! There be monster's here!"


Clankeye

BigE

OK, even if they are not dogs, I am going to announce they are POS's so I can get them cheaper----------------BigE

tradedollarnut

If you ignore the linebacker blitz against Heller and focus on the rest of what monsterman said, this is one of the finest teaching threads to ever grace this forum. I urge you to read his posts again and focus on what he said and not how he said it....

scher

ok ..i have stayed away but now i have to say something..in my opinion i have the top set ever in classic commems...not just the best on the registry but best to the eye..special care to all the keys..stunning lafayette..the only 67 hawaiian and its a killer..the only 68 lexington it is unbelievable as is the gettysburgh ..i could go on and on..and the coins that are tied for the top like my long island in 67 are just unreal also..it is by far the best long island i have ever seen..would be glad to stack this set up against any out there or just for display..ok i have said my piece...
bruce scher..
just couldnt help myself

DMWJR

<< <i>..ok i have said my piece... >>



and your peace too!

RegistryCoin

Thanks Clank. Thanks tdn. You are correct in that it was a good thought that started this thread, but very unprofessional, although educational...
I did well in the auction, and have no complaints. Why make it personal??? Sour grapes or education??. Monsterman is obviously a much learned person, however not a gentleman... but who cares?
Bruce: you have the acknowledged best, ok?......need an Albany?
Thank you Mitch for handling a great sale!!!

oreville

Monsterman: Sorry I did not get back to you. I have not been able to get out of my office to get to FUN and LB shows. Just doing the local shows plus Baltimore.

Registry: monsterman is the same competitive spirit that I hated in his former professional life. But his competitve spirit carries on and folks like monsterman and Stew have their place in our hobby. Where would we be without them? They live and breathe the hobby while also having other careers, not an easy thing to do these days.

By the way, Happy New Year to you all!

RegistryCoin

Agreed.

rainbowroosie

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

RegistryCoin

Thank you all. It is very nice to see that technical quality (w/ or w/o monster color) is appreciated. Thank you for all your positive comments.

wondercoin

"Thank you Mitch for handling a great sale!!!"

Steve: It was a pleasure working with you.

You have not yet seen the special catalog Heritage prepared just for you (I pulled extra copies for you and TDN. who also asked that I mail him one). Your 50 piece collection looks wonderful!

What some folks do not realize is that you privately placed all of your subsets in the year prior to you going down to a 50 piece set. Those subsets were (and still are) "works of art" - from your perfect at the time BTW set, to your near perfect WC set (which contained not one, but two PCGS-MS67 monster color coins, to your Boone, Texas, Arkansas and Oregon collections filled with PCGS-MS68's, including several pop 1 coins. All these collections have remained in tact by their owners. Indeed, I was fortunate enough to puchase your Texas collection in tact, including the 1937(p) pop 1/0 and a magnificent PCGS-MS68 color coin. I tried to improve the set at FUN pursuing a lovely color TX in MS67, but was outbid at nearly $4,600! I have discussed the collection with Heritage as they would like the consignment (like I don't have enough collections going on already), but, there is something about the set and the great effort you poured out in building it in the first place that keeps me wanting to not let it go and improve it from here. I am really proud to own one of your landmark All-Time #1 Subsets

Wondercoin

RegistryCoin

The subsets are even better than the 50 pc. set, imo. They were actually too terrific to give up to an auction. I am glad that they have retained their standing(s). I am so glad that you have the TX set. It has to be retained, waiting for that well-to-do-texan who desires the finest.
ps. It is too bad that MM didn't get to see the subsets (no cherry picking allowed , they went whole to a pvt collector ), as they were right up his alley.

Bear

This thread made me decide to get my new Commem set in the Registry.

Though it is only about 2/3s of the way complete, they are all very high grade

with wonderful toning. It will give me something to concentrate on for the next few years.

It will again be under the Jay Ross Name.

BigE

Welcome to the club Bear---------------BigE

RegistryCoin

That is great Bear! As you can see, you are entering a very interesting and most competitive series (at the top), especially when concentrating on the toned monsters! Congratulations on a most commendable decision, and the best of luck to you in your endeavor.

monsterman

>>>>>from your perfect at the time BTW set, to your near perfect WC set (which contained not one, but two PCGS-MS67 monster color coins>>>>>>

mmmmmmm i wonder who would be dumb enough to let such wonderful coins go........maybe ............just maybe....they were his dups..:-)........:-).......could it be possible that "he" still holds the "last word " MONSTER TONED btw and w/c coins.........gee.....if so he sure had plenty of time before selling through 3rd parties to go to certain graders and afirm which ones would be the first 68s graded before selling any of them....you know like insurance........at least thats what id do!!...:-)....sorta keeps you in the drivers seat if you know what i mean

RegistryCoin

...question the coins... then question their sale??? MM, I would be dumb enough, and happily so...

wondercoin

Steve: I'm not even sure you are debating the same issues any more. For example, speaking of that WC collection - one of the coins in your collection was a killer toned 53(s) in PCGS-MS67. The coin is a pop 2/0 (last I checked) and the other killer toned PCGS-MS67 specimen resides in my/Justin toned collection (and has done so for several years). Neither of these pop 2/0 coins were ever offered publicly and, to my knowledge, no one else has even seen them (other than the new owner of your coin who has seen just yours). I have no doubt MM may have a killer 53(s) WC either raw or in an NGC holder. But, I am equally confident your collection had the sweetest (and most valuable by a landslide) PCGS 1953(s) out there (except my 53(s) isn't a cheap coin either). Not to mention the 52(s) WC in PCGS-MS67 was the monster toned ex Shepherd coin and so on.

One thing I do notice is that this "my killer toned coin is better than yours" dialog does occur often in the Commem series (as does the "my Lincoln is better than yours" in that series). Perhaps this is all in good fun. In any event, time to move on, as I know of 4 or 5 incredible Commem collections out there (and Registrycoin is no longer one of them) and the "MS68" collection improved with the purchase of the Long Island in PCGS-MS67 for close to $21,000 (expect to see it in a PCGS-MS68 holder real soon, which I mentioned in a thread last month), I assume Bruce's collection may have improved with a purchase or two, another collection improved with the purchase of a Hudson in PCGS-MS67 for close to $31,000 and so on. One day, these collections may be showcased side by side for all to enjoy.

And, one final comment - Steve elected to build out the PCGS 144 pc. set 5 years ago when no one else was doing it. At the time, Pop 1/0 coins such as Texas, BTW, etc. were trading to Steve RETAIL for less than $5,000 - again, because no one else wanted them! There is no question Steve was a pioneer of building out the 144 pc. collection in PCGS holders. Did Steve make some mistakes along the way in passing up some monster toned coins a few years back at what would appear to be "steal" prices today - no doubt. Is there a collector out there that has avoided all the mistakes along the way? I know my Wash quarters pretty well and passed on RG's 32d,s in MS65 3 years ago for around $19k/pair - they sold at auction in NY for $50k+/pair. Hindsight is always 20-20. Then there was the time I bought Citibank stock at $10/share, sold it for $12/share and watched it go to $100, painfully, every day, day in and day out. I'm sure Steve learned a few things along the way with this collection as well.

Wondercoin

monsterman

>>>>mmmmmmm i wonder who would be dumb enough to let such wonderful coins go........maybe ............just maybe....they were his dups..:-)........:-).......could it be possible that "he" still holds the "last word " MONSTER TONED btw and w/c coins>>>>


please reread.....as i was refering to myself as i did put the...he ...in " "......sorry for the misunderstanding as i was not refering to anyone else

addionally the problem i have is the statement from pcgs saying "the all time best ever".....which is not accurate

case in point ....the 1999 ana signature sale where 2 large groups of commems were sold ( all who are interested should go back and research ) ...in that sale lew joseph ( from houston ) sold his collectionm....he collected the most technically perfect coins he could for 15 years....he actually alienated himself from several dealers where as they wouldnt send him coins anymore because he was so picky.....the other group was sold by dave latrenta...........they were all monsters....in fact i know of a few coins that were so monster that some people drove 10 hours to his house and begged him to pull some coins from the auction ( such as a certain "last word gettysburg " ) which he did and at the time it was moon money

well ......poor lew was miffed as his coins werent apprectiated for their technical quality and it showed in the prices.....however dr. dave`s coins brought huge prices of double and triple and sometimes 10 times ask.....the commem collectors at the time had a huge party......unfortunately some of the present collectors werent around then......but in time you will get your chance....THAT IS WHY I SAY THE GUY WHO IS IN THE MARKET FOR A LONG TIME ( NOT 5 OR 10 YEARS ) WILL HAVE MANY SHOTS AT MONSTERS

for history`s sake go back to great sales and see whats really out there

shepherd-`91
rothenberger
fun `96.....half these coins live across the pond now...but i got some
ana `99
ana `02.......the best coins sold in 12 years and a blast for me

just some food for thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!


again let me reiterate........... the problem i have is the statement from pcgs saying "the all time best ever".....which is not accurate

the pcgs is not a properly weighted system and is severly flawed......ngc`s system is far superior ......and anyone who wants to know why i think so i will be glad to tell them

tradedollarnut

ngc`s system is far superior ......and anyone who wants to know why i think so i will be glad to tell them

I thought it was slightly superior, until I figured out that they only gave awards to classic sets with a majority NGC. I felt that was deceptive and even more restrictive than limiting coins to PCGS holders so I pulled my sets off their Registry.

RegistryCoin

The "estimated" sets, Eliasberg, Rothenberg, etc., should be set apart from the PCGS reg. sets, and mentioned as an educational aside. This would make clear that "all time best" and other titles refer to pcgs-only sets, as required by the registry rules. This should make everyone happy, I'd think.

monsterman

>>>>>>>>>And, one final comment - Steve elected to build out the PCGS 144 pc. set 5 years ago when no one else was doing it. At the time, Pop 1/0 coins such as Texas, BTW, etc. were trading to Steve RETAIL for less than $5,000 - again, because no one else wanted them>>>>>>>>>

objection your honor.......i can tell you about numerous people ( more than 10 ) who have been there since the `80s...they have some of the most monsterous coins that exist....now if i told you all their names then id tell you too much of my knowledge and id lose the edge i have....

but i will say that one is a dealer now who managed his fathers commem collection from college at harvard for 5 years then entered the hobby full time 5 years ago.....does that ring a bell......the father and son duo have quite a collection and to be quite frank since he is a dealer now its not easy cutting him off.....and i can assure you he sees most of the coins before the " trade" does which keeps me hoping and is why i have so many dups ....that way i can trade with him from time to time


another who has been around pre shepherd... is.....well... i will call him doc for now.....has over 300 monster commems......he almost boarders on "sick" as he hoards them.....( i like that kind of sick )...anyway he has over 15 hawaiians in 66.....and i can assure you there are a few `67s in the hoard


another owns a grocery store

another a music teacher

another a media specialist

another a engineer

another a stock trader

another a jewerly store owner

geez....i could go on and on but all have been here since the `80`s

and yes i have seen them with lots of dups

and yes i have seen them let one go here and there...BUT NOT THEIR "LAST WORD " coins

and yes i have seen them get 150 times what they paid for the coin

and yes this happened because a certain grading service was paid by the submitter to put the correct grade on the holder but failed to do so thus fell into " enemy " hands........which is why i say

1) have the knowledge about the market and all it`s nuances

2) have time in the market ( not 5 or 10 years )

3) make the contacts with the players...THE REAL ONES

4) know how to grade each series AND MINT MARK

do all this and you will be sucessful...I CAN ASSURE YOU!!


can anyone tell me how to grade a missouri

how about a sesqui......

KNOWLEDGE IS....AND ALWAYS WILL BE KING



please reread #1.....one of these nuances is easy to understand and here it is......while most people think when they have a coin and send it in and have paid to have it graded thus ...boom...there it is on the holder....the grade.....i for one know this is far from reality.....the fact is for way too many monsters......the services just dont want ( ALL OF THEM PCGS AND NGC ) to give you 10,000 or 100,000 in an upgrade for a 100 submission fee ....( but will do so when its so ridiculously obviuos ......THUS ANOTHER CASE IN POINT FOR TIME IN THE MARKET )....lets take for instance an illinois ( aka lincoln).....both are graded ms 67......one is a 2,000 coin and the other is a 40,000 coin.........how in the heck is that possible...two coins ....same grade......believe me....if you dont understand this FACT .....YOU`LL NEED MORE KNOWLEDGE


if you had a bust dollar that would upgrade from 175,000 to 350,000 from a 65 to a 66 be prepared to send it in 100 to 500 times or 10,000 to 50,000 in fees.....or do what tdn does...spend time in the market and buy the great coins and use your knowledge

wondercoin

"objection your honor"

SUSTAINED.




Wondercoin

p.s. wow - what a post!!

p.s.s Still does not totally explain how Steve was able to buy important coins such as 38(p) Oregon in PCGS-MS68, 37(p) Texas in PCGS-MS68, etc., etc., etc. for "chicken feed" - why were none of those 10-15 other guys all over these coins? Why were they only $4k or $5k just a few years back? Was it simply an obvious opportunity missed by every one of them? Just curious.

coinguy1

"can anyone tell me how to grade a missouri

how about a sesqui......"

Greg, I'm sure many people could (properly / correctly) instruct you on how to grade those coins. The question is, whether you could absorb the information.

monsterman

>>>>Still does not totally explain how Steve was able to buy important coins such as 38(p) Oregon in PCGS-MS68, 37(p) Texas in PCGS-MS68, etc., etc., etc. for "chicken feed" - why were none of those 10-15 other guys all over these coins? Why were they only $4k or $5k just a few years back? Was it simply an obvious opportunity missed by every one of them? Just curious.>>>>


councilor

as we debate back and forth ( some in fun and some in education ) we both know we all have some monsters and no doubt steve had his share....and made some great buys and had some great timing.....that being said this is what happens when there is a fixed supply ( they dont make anymore commems ) and a growing demand...and he did show the knowledge when the opportunity presented itself

another point to think about ......is it harder to know when to buy or when to sell.....personally i think ....its the later....happens to me all the time in stocks....in fact yopu pointed that out already

mf........learning everyday .....as you have been a great teacher

monsterman

wondercoin

"we both know we all have some monsters and no doubt steve had his share....and made some great buys and had some great timing....."

COMMON GROUND AT LAST

Wondercoin

P.S. I also believe it is much harder to decide when to sell. In fact, when to buy is easy - whenever there is a positive balance in your checkbook!

tradedollarnut

whenever there is a positive balance in your checkbook!

No - when the opportunity presents itself...