1799 Large Cent grade

neonleon · December 11, 2003 2:30AM

Hello,

I am getting a lot of questions regarding the grade of a 1799 Large Cent coin...

1799 Large Cent Photos

Anyone out there willing to give me an opinion??

Thanks in advance!!!

-Leon

dorkkarl · December 11, 2003 2:40AM

quick guess: sharpness of fine-15, net vg-10 for corrosion.

K S

kieferscoins · December 11, 2003 2:41AM

No net grade unless you are an ANACS grader. PCGS and NGC bodybag.

Cameron Kiefer

dorkkarl · December 11, 2003 3:11AM

<< No net grade unless you are an ANACS grader. PCGS and NGC bodybag. >>

completely wrong. EVERY grade IS a "net grade".

K S

neonleon · December 11, 2003 4:01AM

Thanks for you input!

Barry · December 11, 2003 4:05AM

Wouldn't buy a '99 uncertified. Too many fakes.

coinguy1 · December 11, 2003 4:08AM

I agree with Cameron and I disagree with Karl, unless he is willing to concede that a bodybag is a "net grade", too.

dorkkarl · December 11, 2003 4:33AM

a body bag is a netgrade. it's a ridiculously stupid way of communicating a net-grade of "0", but it is a net-grade

unless the coin's c/f of course

& of course, i've never yet ever gotten a single body bag.

K S

MrEureka · December 11, 2003 4:47AM

it's a ridiculously stupid way of communicating a net-grade of "0"

Karl - There is no intelligent way to communicate a net grade of "0".

abuell · December 11, 2003 4:53AM

<< I agree with Cameron and I disagree with Karl, unless he is willing to concede that a bodybag is a "net grade", too.

>>

I get the idea that some of you have been breathing way too many plastic fumes. Why would you bodybag this coin - not genuine? Well, I'm still not sure that it is, but let's assume that it is for argument's sake. All any net grade is is what you would be willing to pay for the coin translated back into a grade level. Example: Coin A has the sharpness of a F 15 but is corroded, has two rim dings and has been recolored. You won't pay over $X which is what the coin catalogues for in G4. Hey, you've just netted the coin to G4! If the coin is genuine and you are bodybagging it you are, in effect, saying that the coin is worthless. Please, please send me all of your genuine bodybagged 1799 cents - I'll cover the postage and you'll be rid of those worthless coins that have no net grades.

neonleon · December 11, 2003 4:54AM

This one isn't. It was my grandfather's.

spadesjedi · December 11, 2003 4:56AM

That doesn't mean it isn't a fake

goose3 · December 11, 2003 4:58AM

Leon
you should turn on your private message feature.

go under PROFILE and you will find it near the bottom

coppercoins · December 11, 2003 5:04AM

F details, net VG corrosion.

And Karl is right, every coin has a grade. Just because PCGS won't slab it, well, that's their problem. ANACS has it right in slabbing anything genuine and telling it like it is on the label. Cleaned, damaged, porous, corroded, bent, whatever. Just because a coin has problems doesn't mean you should throw it out with the bath water. Come on people!! PCGS isn't the one and only GOD. They are wrong on this subject, period.

Nysoto · December 11, 2003 5:08AM

This issue with this 1799 cent is not so much the grade, but whether it is genuine or not. The grading services should not bodybag genuine coins, especially rarities like a 1799 cent.

neonleon · December 11, 2003 5:14AM

You calling my Grandpa a crook?

I added to the description that I guarantee the coin's authenticity or I will refund the money.

coinguy1 · December 11, 2003 5:15AM

For the record, just because I think a given coin is likely to be body-bagged, does not mean I think it is worthless, or even that I think it deserves to be body-bagged.

It simply means that I think it WILL be body-bagged. And, I know that I'm not always right about such things, either.

I make my predictions based on my experiences with and perceptions of the major grading services and their standards / policies.

abuell · December 11, 2003 5:22AM

OK, it definitely is NOT a S-188 (or an NC-1!). It might be a S-189. Hey, someone help me here - this ain't my area, it's not a Fugio!

Keyrock · December 11, 2003 5:23AM

Pretty big coin you got there. I would go with a g/vg net grade due to the pitting.

Being a raw coin and a important coin I would send to ANACS for certification and net grade (Confirms authenticity) The purchaser (if they so desire) can remove it from the slab if they want it raw.

Why - it protects you due to the value and it eliminates headaches if its fake.

my 2 cents - Rich

neonleon · December 11, 2003 5:32AM

Thanks Rich!

I was going to get it graded, but I figure that takes all the fun out of it for the purchaser. I say, let the buyer slab it if he or she wishes.

Again, I am confident this is not a fake. I already had it looked at by some local coin dealers one of which is a 'Professional Numismatist' (PGCS, NGC, ANACS).

Were those two Large Cents?

-Leon

Barry · December 11, 2003 5:41AM

<< a body bag is a netgrade. it's a ridiculously stupid way of communicating a net-grade of "0", but it is a net-grade
K S >>

No, it's not a net grade of zero. It's a net grade of null or no-grade. There's a difference. That coin should go to ANACS or NCS. And to the seller, bidding on a raw key date on Ebay isn't fun, it's risky and stupid.

neonleon · December 11, 2003 5:48AM

I guaranteed that the coin is genuine or I will provide a refund! What do you want from me!

I am sure there are bidders out there that find it fun! And I will bet they aren't stupid either.

I am sure the bidder will send the coin to ANACS or NCS and be satisfied. And darn it, it will be fun!

jdimmick · December 11, 2003 5:57AM

First thing I questioned is the authenticity. I would like to see it in person. And just becuase it was pulled out years ago by a collector, does not neccesarily mean that it could not be a counterfeit. The 1799 was a rarer date from day one and many collectors as early as the 1840's had difficulty in aquiring one. This coin has been heavily counterfieted from the 1800's up.

I am not saying that your coin is not genuine, it probably is, but that was my first question after seeing the photo before even thinking about the grade or "net grade"?

And that is commendable given the buyer a return privledge especially on a rare date such as this one.

good luck sellin it.

dorkkarl · December 11, 2003 6:08AM

neonleon, the coin appears legit, imo (or i would of body-bagged it in my 1st response

). i think you are doing the auction exactly right. kudos.

K S

MacCrimmon · December 11, 2003 6:22AM

200+ EAC guys will see this on Region 8 this coming Sunday night. Answer their emails and be helpful and you'll maximize your selling price. A lot of collectors like this grade range, Net G6 Scudzy IMO. Good luck.

neonleon · December 11, 2003 6:33AM

Sounds very interesting!

I am always very helpful with my auctions and will do my best to answer any questions.

Thanks!

Rittenhouse · December 11, 2003 11:02AM

S189 ..... maybe.

Working with Noyes on the DVD project, I saw photos of about 200 99s, mostly S189. No surprise, S189 is the most common. Most 99s are low grade and "scudzy" from corrosion & pitting. To give you an idea, all of the "CC" coins below #5 are net graded down an ave. of 10 pts. for pitting & porosity. IF real, a decent looking net VG8 or G6 would be worth a few K.

So, along comes a decent S189 on eBay, no reserve, unslabbed, by a new guy, non-EAC. "Shown to local dealers one of whom is a Professional Numismatist." Why didn't the local dealers & "Professional Numismatist" jump all over this coin? Or give him a base price for a reserve? Is he gonna claim 900 bucks was offered? I'd pay 2K min. for a piece like this if I could see it first.

So, why not send it to ANACS for cert? "I want a "lucky bidder to have the fun"? Gimme a break! Think about it. No "real" base offer from dealers & 10 bucks for cert vs. a few K??? It ain't like decent 99s are lyin' around like cow turds.

Oh yeah, I've also seen A LOT of very good cast & electro counterfeits that are artificially pitted & corroded. And, no you can't tell from a scan. Caveat Emptor.

abuell · December 11, 2003 11:06AM

Read everything that Rittenhouse wrote and take it to the bank!

airplanenut · December 11, 2003 11:34AM

<< Read everything that Rittenhouse wrote and take it to the bank! >>

Literally

dorkkarl · December 11, 2003 9:17PM

<< Net G6 Scudzy IMO >>

mac-crimmon, your brutal!

K S

Rittenhouse · December 11, 2003 10:13PM

mac's not really being brutal. A few points difference of opinion between copper collectors is considered reasonable. The number of points vary with grade. In F and below 1 or 2 points, VF to MS, 2 - 5 points. In MS one may say nice 60 another may say low 63.

Also, overall visual appreance - choice, ave., or scudzy - is not necessarily positive or negative. For example, if we were talking about a very common date/variety like 18N10 or 20N13 that typically come choice with clean gorgeous surfaces, full luster, hi grade, even toning or full red, then ave or scudzy surfaces would be a negative. However, virtually all 99s come "scudzy"; this is the typical condition for 99s. Thus a "scudzy" 99 can still be a VERY desirable coin depending on how bad it looks. The a coin like the one in question is acutally much better than most.

neonleon · December 11, 2003 11:02PM

Man you guys are brutal! You must have been burned by someone it the past.

I am not a big-time collector and not a member of the EAC, you are right. I actually have been more involved in sport memorabilia in the past 25 years.

The coin was my grandfather's and he told me to sell it for him. He had it more than 50 years. I have been selling a small parts of his collection on EBay the last year or so. I have been mostly selling Morgans and am working on other portions of his collection. The 'Professional Numismatist' of which I speak said he wanted some of his buddies (probably members of the EAC) to look at it; but at the time, my Grandfather wasn't sure he wanted to part with it yet. I told him it wasn't for sale.

I have recently sold another key date on eBay, that was (crazy as it may sound) authentic!!!

Here is the link...

Buffalo Nickel 1918/17D Overdate

Here is the feedback...

very good, 10**********

So, while can sit back and cry bloody murder, some other collector will pick up this bad boy and enjoy it.

Again, there is a guarantee. I have 100% positive feedback (50 from other coin auctions), and if you find out that it is fake; I will refund your money. Why would I offer this? Because my fake is so good that all the members of the EAC can't possibly determine the difference?

So, there you have it. Someone will be getting a nice coin here from a honest eBayer. Probably not you, I guess.

neonleon · December 11, 2003 11:07PM

Thanks! I appreciate it!

The coin is absolutely legit.

neonleon · December 12, 2003 12:50AM

This coin is legit.

Thanks for the good luck!

Rittenhouse · December 12, 2003 2:56AM

OK neon, I'll call your bluff. End the auction now, send the coin to ANACS, if it certs send it to me & I'll pay min. 2K, probably closer to 3 if it's as nice as the scan looks. If you need refs, call John Kraljevich at ANR or Mark Borckardt at B&M and ask if they'd send Craig Sholley 2K or even 20K on word. Probably send me 100K if I asked nicely.

2 - 3K guaranteed vs. your risk on eBay that only a couple risk takers hit the piece, I'll even pay the cert costs. Your move Mr. "It's Legit".

neonleon · December 12, 2003 3:49AM

Even better...

Why don't you bid on the coin and send it yourself ANACS. If it is a fake, I will refund your money + 10% + the cert costs.

This will extend this offer to you only.

What do you have to lose? I have been selling coins on eBay almost a year (member for almost 3) and I ain't going anywhere.

Your move now, Mr. '2K min.'

-Leon

kieferscoins · December 12, 2003 3:55AM

<< Your move now, Mr. '2K min.' >>

Fighting back or forth and making comments that may seem snotty by some members or taken the wrong way won't help your sale at all.

Cameron Kiefer

neonleon · December 12, 2003 4:03AM

He started it!

Aw, come on, it's all in good fun. I didn't mean to come off snotty.

Sorry if it offended anyone.

dorkkarl · December 12, 2003 4:15AM

i offer $4200

K S

Barry · December 12, 2003 4:28AM

Here's my 1799 S-189 Large Cent, in case anyone wants to compare. Mine is in an ANACS slab. Not a great picture, but feel free to play guess the grade. Sorry, Rittenhouse, it's not for sale.

neonleon · December 12, 2003 4:33AM

A comparable piece, wouldn't you say?

Certain aspects of the one I am selling seem better (i.e. hairlines) but there are less divits and the date is more visible on your's.

What the worth, in your estimate?

seanq · December 12, 2003 4:36AM

I dunno, call me a cynic, but I tend to disbelieve someone who is willing to leave several thousand dollars on the table because he doesn't want to spend $30 to get a coin certified, or because he wants his bidders to "have fun" bidding on the coin raw. Assuming your story is legit, why wouldn't you want to do everything possible to get the best price for your grandfather?

Also, your counter to Rittenhouse's offer isn't very realistic. If you stop your auction now, and collect the certification fee from him before you submit the coin to ANACS, you have virtually no exposure if he then backs out of his end of the bargain. A certified 1799 is worth at least what he offered, even if he's not the one to pay it. If he wins the auction and submits the coin himself, his exposure is enormous should you then renege on your promise to refund his money. Not that I know enough about either of you to say you would renege, it just seems his method makes the most sense by limiting the potential for loss for both of you.

Personally, I hope the coin is real, that some EAC'er makes it the centerpiece of his collection, and your grandfather gets a nice windfall.

Sean Reynolds

MacCoin · December 12, 2003 4:37AM

I got a 1797 from my waitress are the breakfast joint for $20.00. it wasn't as nice as this one but the money is a lot differant.

neonleon · December 12, 2003 4:51AM

That is why I am here. To get the best money for my Grandfather.

Due to all the cynics out here, I am starting to rethink the certification. I didn't think it would be such an issue, at least in wasn't in the Buffalo Nickel 1918/17D overdate I recently sold. I think I got very good money for it.

I will decide wether to pull the auction shortly.

If I do get the certification, I better see some good bidding out of you nay-sayers when I resubmit the auction.

Barry · December 12, 2003 5:01AM

Leon,
Your coin has more detail in the hair, but who knows, it could be tooled (I'm not accusing you or your grandfather of anything!) If the coin is simply corroded and doesn't have any other problems, it's probably worth $3K+. I know we've gone 'round and'round with this, but I'd never buy (or sell) a coin like this uncertified.

Conder101 · December 12, 2003 5:07AM

Nice coin for a 1799. Genuine (From what I see, could be an electro and I can't see the edge, but it isn't an altered date as most fake 99's are.), S-189 Sharpness of a 20 coin, porous with some pitting, date weak as is normal. Can't tell how dark the coin is in person, 99's are normally quite dark. I'd net it as a VG-7 from the picture.

seanq · December 12, 2003 5:16AM

There is an enormous difference between the two auctions (1799 cent and 1918/7-D Buffalo), which is this - the latter is frequently misattributed, while the former is frequently counterfeited.

Given a good close-up picture of the date of an 1918/7-D, I think most Buffalo specialists could tell a legit piece from a regular 1918-D. A good counterfeit is almost impossible to identify from just a picture, even by a veteran EAC'er (one is telling you just that in this thread), no matter how good the pictures are.

If you really want to get the most for your grandfather, I strongly suggest you take up the offer to get the coin certified.

Sean Reynolds

neonleon · December 12, 2003 5:25AM

Ok, you cynics win.

I have canceled the auction and will be getting the coin certified by ANACS.

I will repost when a new certified auction is up.

I hope you are happy!

-Leon

kieferscoins · December 12, 2003 5:27AM

Pay for the faster service at ANACS, otherwise you may wait a while for it to come back.

Cameron Kiefer

neonleon · December 12, 2003 5:40AM

Thanks for the advice!

Barry · December 12, 2003 6:20AM

<< Ok, you cynics win.
I have canceled the auction and will be getting the coin certified by ANACS.
I will repost when a new certified auction is up.
I hope you are happy!

-Leon >>

It's not that we win. YOU will win with a better price on the coin.

1799 Large Cent grade

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