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Eliasberg Pedigree....how much of a premium?
SeattleSlammer
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Cool auction.
How much do you think this one will go for? It's already way over sheet and retail.......what would you pay?
Eliasberg Boone Commem in MS64
How much do you think this one will go for? It's already way over sheet and retail.......what would you pay?
Eliasberg Boone Commem in MS64
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Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I personally would not pay a premium for a common date but would for a key-date or a coin that can be tracked for 100 or more years. I also think a coin that has been used as a plate coin in numismatic reference book (Noyes, Penny Whimsy, Dime Book, Valentine, Overton, Browning, Breen, etc, etc...) should be worth a premium..
<< <i>I thought this is a coin forum. If it is, a particular coin's pedigree is irrelevant; the coin is all that matters. >>
The free market seems to disagree violently with your theory.
My contention stands.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
<< <i>If you pay a premium for a coin due to its pedigree, you are not buying the coin, you are buying its pedigree. The pedigree in itself is something totally different than the coin itself.
My contention stands. >>
IMO that is a silly argument. Who collects coins, and is disinterested in history? Of course having a coin which has a documented history is desirable. To say that the coin must stand on its own without any thought about who else may have owned it is goofy - IMO.
I have to agree with docday on this. The coin embodies not just the metal and fabrication process used to create it but the history attacted to it as a result of its particular journey through time. What creates demand for a particular coin? Sometimes its just the fact that it is rare in an absolute sense. But in many cases value is assign due to it's having been mint during some important period in time or having become associated with some important historical event. All of the Eliasberg coins to some degree have IMHO that something special for having been part of that historic collection.
How much of a premium for an Eliasberg coin is probably going to depend to some extent on the importance of a particular coin in the collection as a whole. If it's a common coin there may be very little premium. As the coin climbs up the rarity scale I think you would tend to see the premium increase. I think rarity, preservation and provenance might tend to multiply the value rather than have an additive effect meaning a 10% rarity premium plus a 10% preservation premium plus a 10% provenance premium might result in a 50% overall premium rather than 30% (not sure if I'm expressed my thoughts clearly).
I paid 200% for a 1883 Eliasberg No Cents 5c PCGS MS64
It's a great coin because it comes with TWO stories!
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since 8/1/6
If that were true, all coins would be worth face [or melt] value. The only reason a coin is worth more than that is because of other factors - one of which includes provenance. You simply cannot separate those other factors without removing the source of the coin's value.
my favorite "pedigree" story is about a friend and fellow board member. he was one of the earliest egistry participants and a Jefferson Nickel collector for many years, assembling a fine FS set before the coins/Registry/designation was in the limelight. after his set was designated, he sold it off. several years later he confessed to buying back some of his coins which were easily identified by the "pedigree" on the insert!!
al h.
<< <i>.......what would you pay? >>
I will not pay a premium for a pedigree. I could care less who owned it before. Besides, what happens when you can no longer prove its' provenance?
Ken
I won't pay two cents more for a coin that was formerly owned by PMH or Keets for that matter
i do have a few neat coins!! and from what i've seen, so do you. our problem would be to have the pedigree attached. it's a common problem in my everyday life------the overwhelming majority of people i encounter just don't know who i am!!
al h.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
i know where you can get a "KEETS" Morgan. it looks pretty good for a 65!!!
al h.
al h.
Here is a little short summary about Pittman. Some will read this or learn about Pittman from another source, understand how interesting and unique he was and feel that owning a coin that was part of his collection offers them way to have a tangible connection with that unique story. So in addition to this being an attractive coin, somewhat scarce in this condition, embodying the history of Barber coinage in general, it's also got that add attraction of being connected to an important historical figure as far as numismatics is concerned. For those that assign some value to these things, and given this coin is accurately grade the price, this coin might be a bargin.
Ordinary Guy Worth Millions
This is a story about an ordinary, working guy, John Jay Pittman and how he made a fortune by collecting classic U.S. gold and silver coins. Mr. Pittman, a man of modest means, through instinct, knowledge and sheer force of will, assembled one of the most stunning collections of United States coinage ever assembled. He did it all on a very limited budget. But, because of his foresight, his family will never have to worry about money again. You see, his coin collection was auctioned off for over $30 million dollars.
He Worked His Way Up
Born in 1913, the oldest of seven children, Mr. Pittman learned early on the value of money. At 7, he worked all day in a cotton field with bloodied hands for 10 cents. He didn’t have his first pair of new shoes until he was 10. In his formative years during summer break from school he hustled newspapers, rode boxcars, hitchhiked from North Carolina to New York where he worked the docks, in the garment district and became a runner on Wall Street.
Pittman Goes to Work for Kodak
He realized early in life that it wasn’t what one had that was important, material possessions were scarce. Family was what counted, and knowledge was the key to the future. Reading and studying became a passion. His goal of becoming a doctor, like his Uncle, was sacrificed for practical reasons. Medical school was too expensive and would take a long time. He settled on Chemical Engineering. He worked his way through school, mostly waiting on tables.
After graduation he soon went to work for Kodak and moved to Rochester, N.Y. in 1936. Six months later he met the love of his life, wife Gehring. They were soon married, happily, for 60 years
His Grandmother Got Him Started Collecting
Early in life, after his grandmother gave him a handful of coins, he was bewitched by the lure of history, people, and far-off places. His hobby for coin collecting became a lifelong passion. Gehring understood and eagerly joined in the hunt. Her dedication, the letters she wrote for him, and the places they traveled were threads of the fabric that supported his love of the hobby.
Pittman Takes Out A 2nd Mortgage To Buy Coins
When John suggested to Gehring in 1954 that they take a second mortgage on their house to travel to Egypt to buy coins, there was no question in her mind, they were going to Egypt!
$605 Coin Sells for $467,500
At the auction in Cairo, Mr. Pittman bought an 1833 $5 gold piece for $605. In the auction, that same coin brought $467,500! Although this is one of the more sensational success stories of Mr. Pittman’s collection, there are numerous others that just boggle the mind. Here are some examples:
1849- D Gold Dollar Bought in 1948 for $13.50 Auction Price- $6,600.
1854- P Gold Dollar Bought in 1945 for $7.00 Auction Price- $55,000.
1838- D $5 Gold Piece Bought in 1954 for $483 Auction Price $12,100.
1859 Complete Proof Set assembled for $1803 Auction Price $387,500.
There's Wealth In Knowledge
“John was not a wealthy man, except in knowledge,” said professional numismatist David W. Akers, who oversaw the sale of the Pittman Collection. “He was one of the smartest people I’ve ever known, with a wonderful memory, and he was way ahead of his time in terms of knowing which coins to buy. But he was on a definite budget.”
John Pittman would no doubt be proud to know that his collection of coins set up his family for life. But he collected more for the pure joy of the hobby. History, not profit, was what interested him most. His friends and those who knew him best considered him a prime example of a “good collector.” He sought out coins in extraordinarily good condition, he focused on rarity, and insisted that his coins have an interesting history.
The Moral of the Story - Think Like A Collector First
He proved that the most successful path to rare coin investing is to “Think Like A Collector” first. While not everyone who puts away rare coins today will enjoy the success of the Pittman family, their story is a prime example of how to collect rare coins for fun and profit.
I would also like to reiterate that a particular coin's rarity, condition and demand for said coin all figure into the market price of said coin in any event, so I respectfully disagree w TDN in this matter.
Now if you wish to pay a premium for a coin with a particular pedigree, that's your perogative, but you are not just buying the coin. A good example is a gold coin from the S.S. Central America. Would you pay a premium for it? I wouldn't.
An extreme example re ancient coins would be a Roman coin which could somehow be documented at some point as handled by Jesus. I would not pay a premium for such a coin, though I realize that many people would do otherwise, because of its historical value, which is different than its value standing alone as an ancient Roman coin with its own set of particulars.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I wouldn't pay an arm and a leg, but I'd throw a few extra bucks
out to get it.
"I would like to reiterate that you are not buying the coin if you a paying a premium for its pedigree."
The question then is what constitutes "the coin?"
Anytime you buy a coin the price you pay is determine by it's perceived value. What factors affect a coin's value? Where a coin was made and a the perception that having been made there is of some importance. The same is true for how it was made, when was it made, what materials were used to make, how it was handled/preserved. It's the perception that those factors are important that creates a sense of value.
IMHO who handled the coin is as much of a legitimate factor in setting the value as some of the other factors mentioned and is no more or less a factor with respect to "buying the coin."
In one sense you are never just "buying the coin" since coins have no value apart from the things that generate there perception of value.
The memory of the event and coin preview/auction was priceless. It was money well spent.
Someone somewhere will ALWAYS pay big for an Eliasberg pedigree.
In one sense you are never just "buying the coin" since coins have no value apart from the things that generate there perception of value.
Could not have said it better myself.
Each coin that I am interesting in collecting is evaluated upon its own merits when I decide whether to purchase it or not. Those merits include grade, where it falls in the grade range, eye appeal, rarity, provenance and lastly, my perception of value compared to its price. To me, provenance is just as important as all the other items I evaluate in determining its value. Without all those items, I may just as well spend it rather than buy it!
An example of what's important to me. I liked this coin very much when I bought it. I fell in love with it when I found out it was the Amon Carter specimen:
I understand your point. It's well stated, and we'll politely agree to disagree. You are assigning value to who owned / handled the coin in your evaluation of what a particular coin is worth. I only look at the coin itself, though I will concede that I notice whether a coin is slabbed, at what grade, and by which service.
Personally, for illustrative purposes, if two coins were virtually identical, but one was from a famous collection -- and sold at a premium because of it -- and the other one wasn't and sold for less $, I would always buy the less expensive of the two coins. I don't think there is really a right or wrong here, just differing opinions.
Thanks for articulating your point of view so well; it makes for an interesting discussion.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I'm still interested in your answer to the question of what constitutes "the coin?" What are you paying for when you buy "the coin?" What criteria do you use to assess the value of "the coin?"
since i tend to agree with elcontador in principal but may have phrased it differently, i'll answer your question(s)---what constitutes "the coin?" What are you paying for when you buy "the coin?" What criteria do you use to assess the value of "the coin?"
what constitutes "the coin?"
that's an easy one. the coin and nothing else.
What are you paying for when you buy "the coin?"
another easy one. i'm paying for the coin.
What criteria do you use to assess the value of "the coin?"
finally, a question which begs for some thought!! i assess "the coin's" state of preservation, grade if you will, it's actual rarity along with it's grade rarity and the overall appearance of "the coin"--it's eye-appeal to me.
while i can appreciate the historical aspects of the hobby, i really don't factor that into my purchases or even consider it important. that is no more right/wrong --- good/bad --- or anything else.
my question to you and tradedollarnut would be-----why should a lesser coin be valued more just because of who owned it, not by either of you individually, but by the hobby as a whole?? i can think of none, other than to be able to say i have an Eliasberg, or i have a Pittman. if another collector says "That's nice, but this one i have is much nicer" why would the Pedigreed coin be valued higher other than reasons tied to ego and pride of ownership? again, there's nothing wrong with that in itself, it just isn't logical. Eliasberg, or his place in our hobby, isn't diminished by those of us who feel this way. why would some enrich his stature by placing pre-eminence upon his coins?
al h.
Anyone have an extra?
Keets and I are on the same page here. Say I'm looking for a not quite gem (MS 64) Small Dentil Capped Bust Quarter. First, I'll look at the slab and see if I agree re the grade.
If so, I'll get a good look at the coin; strike, contact marks, luster, eye appeal, variety, etc. I'll then
make a judgement where the coin is in the MS 64 grade. Then I'll get out my Grey Sheet bid & ask prices & make another judgement of what I would pay for the coin (sheet is just the starting point
for one of these if it's nice). Then I ask the seller what he wants for it and decide if his price is
within my acceptable price range.
Pedigree to me does not enter into the equation. I don't care if King Farouk or John Doe owned the above coin. Obviously, you and many others here disagree, and that's why I said there's no one correct answer to this question. I am interested in buying the coin for my type set; that's all.
What we collect as pieces of history and who we admire depends on each one of us. For example, I found a spent cartridge from the Chaco War (1929-34) in Fortín Toldeo, Paraguay. I admire the 75 year old man who finished the Palos Verdes Marathon one minute ahead of me this May. While I can respect someone like Mr. Bass, who managed to acquire pretty much all U.S. coins available over a
lengthy period of time, I would not pay a premium for a coin that he once owned.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
You scratched the surface in your answer.
"The coin" is rare because of the historical circumstances that have caused it to be rare. A coin is in the condition that it is in because of the technology in existance at the time it was Mint (history) and the historical happenstance that has caused it to have survived in its current condition. The beauty of its design is a matter of the history of art and sculpture.
"while i can appreciate the historical aspects of the hobby, i really don't factor that into my purchases or even consider it important"
Yes you do (Elcontador too), you just don't realize it. The coin and the perception of its value are all matters of history. For some that history includes others that have owned "the coin."
al h.
"Say I'm looking for a not quite gem (MS 64) Small Dentil Capped Bust Quarter"
Why are you looking for that not quite gem Small Dentil Capped Bust quarter? What is it about that coin that makes it important or valuable to you?
My main point of contention is to the extent that a coin's history contributes to the relative scarcity re its state of preservation, availability and demand, yes, I factor that into what I would pay for it; to an extent, I think this is reflected in sheet pricing.
However, I really consider who owned the coin to be important to me.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I would not pay a premium for an Eliasberg provenance on the Boone. The story told by the provenance is only that Eliasberg didn't care enough about such a cheap and modern coin to bother looking for a nicer one. On the other hand, I'd pay a big premium for a Boone if it could be traced back to Daniel Boone's great grandson's estate. THAT story would be worth paying for.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If it's a common date $2.5 Lib in PR 66, I agree. The coin doesn't tell much more of a story than "Harry Bass was a rich coin collector". That's not a story I would want to pay for.
If it's a common date $2.5 Lib in AU 55 in an R8 die state (worth $300), I'd pay a big premium for the provenance. Why? Because the coin tells so much more about the man, the collector and the collection. Harry Bass was a truly passionate collector and a pioneer in his field. Even today, many of his coins have yet to be appreciated for their true importance. That's a story I'd pay for.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I was looking for clarification regarding the "not buying the coin" comment. Much of the value of a coin is the history emboded in it. Some of those historical attributes are more tangible then others (the design being a product of the popular artistry of the times for example) but the fact that a particular coin was part of an historic collection or owned by a particular important historic figure IMHO becomes part of the coin. When I asked the question about why you were pursuing that particular coin I was expecting to hear an interesting story about the coins history and what about that history makes the coin important and valuable in your eyes. On the one hand coins are a tangible connection with the past. In reality although you can touch the coin the past is really intangible, something you can only touch with your imagination.