I can not believe the price on this auction for a lightside contemporary coin. Maybe I'm missing something but think of the darkside coins that you could get for this much money!!! Egads Shep
Anyway, I don't think that's typical (for that coin at least, lightsiders can be looney).. Silver Eagle Coins (a board member, not looney ) has a few PR69s for under $50.
I have always believed to each their own when it comes to collecting. But, if I had a kid and he came home and said he bought that bullion coin for that price.... BAM-ZOOM! To the Moon.
It's rampant idiocy! I own the same coin, bought from the mint; i've gone over it in detail with my 10x and can't find spot one on it- But it ain't in the plastic!; it's not part of pop 26... wait until the other 25,000 perfect coins hit the market!
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
Look at it this way, boys 'n girls - the more money they waste over there on stupid registry games, the less money we have to compete with on this side of the world!!!
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>THE POPULATION OF THIS COIN AT THE TIME I LISTED IT IS ONLY 26 CERTIFIED BY PCGS AT THIS LEVEL. >>
Well yippee. You could spend $1200.00 on that, and get something that is a bit more than 1 year old, has hundreds known, 26 of which are supposedly exactly on par with yours.
Or for just a tad under $1000.00 you can get a coin that has weathered over 1800 years in the ground, and is the best of only two known in the world.
I'll be the first to say that people should collect what they want and pay whatever they feel is fair for what they collect. But I for one like to get a little bit of value for my dollar, and I just don't see it in a 1 year old bullion round. But that's just me.
Well, then, Civitas, you'd better get with the program then, huh????? Quit trying to peddle that old junk and start buying truly valuable stuff---modern bullion.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>Well, then, Civitas, you'd better get with the program then, huh????? Quit trying to peddle that old junk and start buying truly valuable stuff---modern bullion. >>
Why am I always the one to have to defend this stuff. Believe it or not, ACG, Coin Vault, and coin doctors are not manisfestations of the devil incarnate. Bullion coins are not the undoing of western civilization and ultra moderns are not the financial equivalent of shov- eling money into a furnace. This being said, I am not a fan of any of these. Sure Coin Vault is "good" entertainment and ACG is often good for a chuckle or two, bullion coins can be very attractive and there are safer ways to "play" any of the markets than buying two year old coins.
I'd really just rather play with my coins and learn about them on the net, but always I get roped into defending things I love, and even some I don't.
I didn't create the markets, they are what they are. They are always trying to tell us something and it's always the same thing, "this is the supply and demand". If you think it's too high- sell. If you think it's too low- buy. If you don't care....
As of this post - there are three hours left and 16 bids!!!!!! - I know that in coin collecting it is "to each his own", on the darkside we see that all of the time. Many of us have very different collecting habits and tastes - that , to me, is part of the fun. To see that different posts from the different members gives me a dramatic view of the world, history and art. But in the case of a "perfect" bullion coin, 2 years young, going for such a price tells me less about the coin but speaks volumes about collectors with their eyes on investment rather than the enjoyment of the coin itself........man I'm getting long winded in my old age Shep
Cladking, I don't disagree with you in principle. Throughout my life, I always cherry-picked pocket change in order to find the nicest CLAD coins. Yes, that's me. Because that's what I had access to, and I found some really nice pieces. That's the essence of collecting, and it's exciting.
Sure, I think the market should work. Let people buy and sell what they want and pay what they want for said items. I'm a strong defender of that. I'm not bashing moderns, either.
What I think is crazy, however, is paying a downpayment on a house for one modern bullion coin that just happens to reside in somebody's plastic coffin with a certain number on it given by someone who just might have massive conflicts of interests in putting that number on it. (This is a bit off topic, but we all know what I'm talking about here). Why would someone want to feed their greed and vanity by paying 100 times the value of that bullion coin just because it has the coveted MS-70 number on it?? When in fact, there are tons of similar, if not exactly the same coins around waiting to be slabbed. Or not. Who cares?
I'm not interested in buying that coin, but if others want to waste their money, so be it.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i> But in the case of a "perfect" bullion coin, 2 years young, going for such a price tells me less about the coin but speaks volumes about collectors with their eyes on investment rather than the enjoyment of the coin itself........man I'm getting long winded in my old age Shep >>
Perhaps there is some truth in what you say. But one thing is certain, there are 26 people who have put down their money for his coin. There are many dozens more who have bid similar amounts and lost. I do not feel competent to judge the motives of these people, but you can rest assured that if they all or most of them, bid based on investment potential then there can be no real market and in the long run these prices can not hold.
I'll bet a lot of these folks are just trying to put together a collection of coins and staying current.
Clad -- I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, you are correct that this is the choice of those who are bidding for these coins and, as my economics professor always said, "All decisions are made using a cost benefit analysis, if the costs exceed the benefits then a decision will never be in the affirmative" My main objective was just to show the difference in the darkside vs lightside values.
This is just like the "Tech Bubble" on the stock market, with all the glam stocks like JDSU, PMCS and RFMD. We all know what happened to them. This US coin bubble will burst someday, make no mistake.
I love the Walker design, but I'd take Josh's worn Roman over that perfect modern yearling any day ... of course, if I were sane, I'd take the bullion Walker, wait a month, sell it for twice what I paid for it, and then buy his Roman and the second-best.
To me paying that kind of money for a Silver Eagle is daft. I could buy two gold Guineas from the 1700s and have money left for a nice dinner with my wife for what that buyer paid!
Having said that, there are more people who collect proof eagles than Guineas and that fella could end up making money (but I doubt it).
If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:
<< <i>Bubbles are excessive demand for things that are not really in short supply like tulip bulbs and dotcom stocks. Not all US coins fit this category.
It remains to be seen if the coin in question does or not. >>
I was reading about the tulip craze a few months ago. I think the US coin market follows the tulip pattern fairly well. In the US market there are coins which are plainly common just as there were common varieties of cheap tulips. However, some connoisseurs value certain mint state or proof grades over others as flower connoisseurs valued some slightly different varieties over common tulips. Speculation is taking prices for common coins in preferred grades to amazing heights, and one day it will all come crashing down. Some coins will hold their value reasonably well even after the crash, as did some tulips.
I'm not one to slam anyone's collecting interest - I've got a few ASEs myself.
I just hope whoever wins that auction is an educated collector that understands the role of TPG companies, appreciates the likelyhood of additional coins being certified at the 70 level and feels the registry value (or ownership satisfaction) is worth the price.
<< <i>Bubbles are excessive demand for things that are not really in short supply like tulip bulbs and dotcom stocks. Not all US coins fit this category.
It remains to be seen if the coin in question does or not. >>
I was reading about the tulip craze a few months ago. I think the US coin market follows the tulip pattern fairly well. In the US market there are coins which are plainly common just as there were common varieties of cheap tulips. However, some connoisseurs value certain mint state or proof grades over others as flower connoisseurs valued some slightly different varieties over common tulips. Speculation is taking prices for common coins in preferred grades to amazing heights, and one day it will all come crashing down. Some coins will hold their value reasonably well even after the crash, as did some tulips. >>
I can understand your thinking on this, and would even agree that the prices on some moderns seem "excessive". But there are many moderns which are very difficult to find in attractive condition which bring very little premium except in the very high and rare grades. So long as there are some coins like this it's difficult for me to believe that there is much danger of these crashing. It also seems unlikely the overall modern market is in much danger when you consider that these are still essentially specialty markets. There are very few who deal in or service these markets. These are not the earmards of most speculative markets.
For $1150 or maybe less, I would most gladly enjoy finding say, a scarce date Gothic florin which is truly a no questions, MS66 or better. Hmmm. Can't wait for that new Spink.
For $1150, I will spend my cash on 'REAL' rarities, not "MANUFACTURED RARITIES"
The title says 1953 but it's actually a 1983 set - I then did a search on the bay of e for 1983 proof sets and there are about 150 listed with most going for less than $10 (with shipping!). Can someone please explain the logic of paying 5 TIMES the going rate for a very common proof set?!?!?!
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
Sorry Mac C if I offended and I did not understand your reply. I was trying to say if I had that sort of money I would be in the World Coin market to find some of lovlies I have seen on here.
It doesn't look like I know how to make a proper reply
Becoming informed but still trying to learn every day! 1-Dammit Boy Oct 14,2003
I wonder what the lightside forum members would have posted in response to this topic???? I didn't want to create any bad blood over there so I stayed away, but I still wonder what the reaction would be. Shep
Manufactured rarities find their value in the coin marketplace through the economic principle of,
SUPPLY AND DUMB-MAND >>
What is different about the current coin market and the tulip market is that, as Mac points out, one can manufacture rarities in the coin market. The same coin in a PCGS MS-70 holder will almost always sell for more than it will in a PCGS MS-69 holder. Tulip merchants couldn't "crack out" bulbs and try for a different variety classification, but coin speculators oftentimes do try to get grade bumps by resubmitting the same coins. This doesn't apply only to moderns, either. A 1793 cent the Early American Copper crowd said was VF-35 got a bump in price when it came back in PCGS AU-55 plastic.
shirohniichan My miss understanding of the reply. It was not meant negative other than I just don't like/appreciate the hyper grading I have seen with USA coins and TGP services. I do NOT mean I am correct, it is just my feelings.
No offense meant.
Becoming informed but still trying to learn every day! 1-Dammit Boy Oct 14,2003
Shep - there is a raging debate that frequently flares up about moderns and condition rarities vs truely rare coins. Any response or thread that you could post over there would simply fan the flames and bring it back to the top of the discussion list. It can sometimes get ugly, bloody and downright nasty, so I usually stay outta that war!
I also believe that anybody has a right to collect what they want and if they have the means to pay that much for a CONDITION RARITY then more power to them. I personally would not drop that much cash on that coin, but then I know a lot of people that would not drop the cash that I have on IHC's (or any of the other coins that I collect).
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
Dragon -I agree that the flames would be fanned with this topic on the lightside - I also agree that to each his own on the coin collection front - that's what makes it so interesting on this side. But, Silver Eagle Coins has a MS69 graded Silver Eagle for less than $50.00 - why would a single point difference result in over a $1000.00 increase in value - I would bet that most of us could not tell a MS69 from a MS70 coin. I know I couldn't. Shep
Believe me Shep, discussions of this nature are the bread and butter of the liteside, and you can count on at least one good, long thread every couple of weeks debating moderns, condition rarities, and the role of TPG companies in creating markets.
The opinions voiced in these threads run the usual gamut--from the well thought out replies (such as our friend, Cladking) to the knee-jerk, let's stir the pot, idiot missiles.
That this thread maintains a civil discourse is exactly why I like it here on the Dark Side.
Shep, I bet nobody could tell that one point of difference in grade. That's what makes it a manufactured rarity. And what's worse, there are hundreds, or thousands, or hundreds of thousands of the exact same coins (after all, they come from the same mint, for the same collectors, manufactured to the same specifications) waiting to be slabbed. I also don't buy the argument that slabbing "protects" the coin and "keeps" it in that same condition forever.
Newbie, you've offended noone!! Also, I doubt you misunderstood anybody's remarks. We're all on the same page here.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Newbie, you've offended noone!! Also, I doubt you misunderstood anybody's remarks. We're all on the same page here.
Exactly-- we're on page two.
I was only pretending to be offended. If there were clear, universally recognized grades I don't think there would be as much controversy. However, when one grader's MS-68 is an MS-69 at another time to another grader for the exact same coin (and there's a $1,000 difference in price), we have confusion.
Thanks to all who responded - I have enjoyed this expression of opinions in, as clank pointed out, a very thoughtful manner. Thanks to cladking for his thoughtful comments on another point of view. This is what makes this a discussion rather than an argument. Shep
Shep - there are very few people anywhere who could tell you the difference between a 69 and a 70. The price is driven (I believe anyway) by two factors:
1. It is a condtion rarity (note that I did not say it was a rare coin!), i.e. there shouldn't be a whole lot of them available 2. The registry and the ability to say that you have the 'best' (read highest graded) set available - i.e. it is purely eqo driven competition that has ceased to be about the coin and is completely about the number that someone placed on the slab!
The problem that exists with this sort of thing is that you could crack that same coin out 10 times and send it into any of the grading services and depending on the lighting and the mood of the grader that day, you might or might not come back with a coin that grades MS70! In fact, I would be willing to challenge anyone to take thier top pop coins (according to any of the grading services), crack them out of the slabs and resubmit them to see if they come back with the same grades. I would be willing to bet that the majority of the coins would not come back with the same grade! I hold this as a fact because so many of the dealers in the liteside coins are 'crack-out artists' - meaning that they are continually breaking open slabs and resubmitting the coins just to get that one grade bump. And why do they do this? Because there are enough people waiting in line (with thier egos in thier hands) to pay for that 1 extra point on the slab so that they can say they have the BEST!
All you have right now that is supporting all of these high prices and fantastic differences in prices for the one grade bump is the OPINION of the graders at the TPG's. I admit and I agree that these graders are supposed to be the best, but they can still only render an OPINION about the grade of the coin. There is nothing repeatable nor scientific about the process! And, given that it is a subjective opinion, it is neither right nor wrong - it is simply an opinion!
On the flip side of that argument is the question - Can we make it scientific and reapeatable? The irrefutable answer to that question is always no. Sure, you could measure the strike and see if it was complete, you could record dings, bumps and other imperfections and you could also probably figure a way to measure the luster of the coin (although that woud get a little tricky when trying to distinguish between a polished coin and a highly lusterous coin), but the one absolute thing that cannot be done scientifically is EYE-APPEAL. The reason being obvious - eye-appeal is purely subjective and is based on the values of the person who is deciding if the coin has the look that they want - witness the constant back-and-forth arguments and discussions about the toning issue over on the liteside boards! So you could assign a 'technical' grade to a coin based on measurements and scientific findings but you really cannot assign the overall grade to the coin because you would have to leave out one of the biggest 4 grading values of the coin.
I guess what I am trying to say here is that a lot of people are 'betting the farm' based on that 1 point difference in grade. They do so because they believe that 1 point difference is 'right', when in fact, it is simply an opinion and as such, has no basis in either right or wrong and is subject to change without prior notice or warning.
My basic belief on this issue is that one of these days, people will wake up to this FACT and we will see a major adjustment in the price differentials between the grades (especially at the very highest grades).
I have to go back to the best advice I have ever been given since I got into this hobby - buy the coin and not the holder. If you personally can tell the difference between a 69 and a 70, then buy the 70, but don't do it because someone else's opinion of the coin and/or your position in a registry list is the main driving force behind your purchase of the coin!
One other thing that I would add to this is that the basic argument that I am making has nothing to do with whether the coin was minted 2 days ago or 200 years ago - the price differentials between the grades still exist and are still based on nothing more than the opinion of a very fallible human being!
I guess I will get off my soapbox and get back to work. Thanks for listening/reading my rant.
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
Excellent post, CCR! You elaborated well on many of my thoughts.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Ccrdragon; Many fine points and as you note yourself these considerations apply to all coins regardless of age, but it is the older coins which are more likely to be repeatedly submitted in hopes of getting a "bump" in grade. It is the older coins which have the largest absolute increases in value at the high end of the scale.
Yes, it's true that grade is an opinion and to some degree this won't change, but this system was invented to explain the differences in prices between similar old coins. These coins vary in more parameters than most moderns and are graded accordingly. Coins can be graded on absolute scales if "problem" coins are omitted. It is largely the wide variation in surface con- ditions and preservation of the older coins that confounds attempts at true grading. This hardly means that there is no opinion involved in the grading of the newer coins, simply that this op- inion will tend to be more consistent. This is the largest reason that resubmissions are less com- mon for moderns.
You may not believe this final point is of real consequence, but it is. There are no MS-70 regular issue moderns. Other than a few one cent coins there are no MS-69 regular issue moderns. Many regular issue moderns do not appear as MS-67 or MS-68 either. These coins do not exist in these grades! Many of them are rare in the highest grade! And perhaps most importantly some of them are rare in the just missed grades too. There are even a few which are elusive even in nice choice uncirculated condition. People never bothered to collect these coins or to set them aside, and now after decades of being ignored they are finding some surprises. If you think the non modern col- lectors are surprised, you should see some of he things collectors are finding.
<< <i>For $1150 or maybe less, I would most gladly enjoy finding say, a scarce date Gothic florin which is truly a no questions, MS66 or better. Hmmm. Can't wait for that new Spink.
For $1150, I will spend my cash on 'REAL' rarities, not "MANUFACTURED RARITIES" >>
<< <i>Shep - there is a raging debate that frequently flares up about moderns and condition rarities vs truely rare coins. Any response or thread that you could post over there would simply fan the flames and bring it back to the top of the discussion list. It can sometimes get ugly, bloody and downright nasty, so I usually stay outta that war! >>
Actually that debate has been winding down on the lite side for a multitude of reasons. Probably the biggest is that the modern collectors are right and it's beginning to be more widely seen. There are many who hate these coins and hold the collectors in very low esteem, but this is not a particular problem for those who collect the coins any more. We can actually discuss the coins without interruption from the bashers usually.
When you think about it, what is the problem with collecting unpopular coins. We don't bash collectors of two cent pieces or Islamic coins so why attack people who like moderns?
OK, Cladking. You've convinced me now---I want to collect moderns!!
In all seriousness, I've been collecting moderns all my life, since the mid 70s. I've been cherry-picking all the best coins from change, and I agree with you that true MS high grade coins are rare. One day, or one of these decades, I'll probably get a lot of them slabbed. I just think it's too expensive at the moment. And my coins aren't deteriorating, so I see no need to slab them.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
I do believe you can see the distinction between this thread and a thread which is designed as an attack against people who like moderns, right Clad?
I know you are use to fighting the good fight, but sometimes it's just not there.
I don't think anyone on this forum is attacking people who collect moderns. Any more than they attack slab collectors, medal collectors, or any other preference of collecting.
For the record I feel no different about this auction that Shep has highlighted than say... an extra $50,000 being garnered for a Standing Liberty Quarter having a full head.
I think to view this thread as any kind of inditment of modern collectors is taking it too much to heart.
Comments
Anyway, I don't think that's typical (for that coin at least, lightsiders can be looney).. Silver Eagle Coins (a board member, not looney
My wantlist & references
I have always believed to each their own when it comes to collecting. But, if I had a kid and he came home and said he bought that bullion coin for that price.... BAM-ZOOM! To the Moon.
Clankeye
But it ain't in the plastic!; it's not part of pop 26... wait until the other 25,000 perfect coins hit the market!
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
I can't believe it, but I see it.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>THE POPULATION OF THIS COIN AT THE TIME I LISTED IT IS ONLY 26 CERTIFIED BY PCGS AT THIS LEVEL. >>
Well yippee. You could spend $1200.00 on that, and get something that is a bit more than 1 year old, has hundreds known, 26 of which are supposedly exactly on par with yours.
Or for just a tad under $1000.00 you can get a coin that has weathered over 1800 years in the ground, and is the best of only two known in the world.
http://www.civitasgalleries.com/images/AC1022.jpg
I'll be the first to say that people should collect what they want and pay whatever they feel is fair for what they collect. But I for one like to get a little bit of value for my dollar, and I just don't see it in a 1 year old bullion round. But that's just me.
https://www.civitasgalleries.com
New coins listed monthly!
Josh Moran
CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>Well, then, Civitas, you'd better get with the program then, huh????? Quit trying to peddle that old junk and start buying truly valuable stuff---modern bullion. >>
https://www.civitasgalleries.com
New coins listed monthly!
Josh Moran
CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
The gall of you snotty-nosed, uppity, elitist darksiders! What's wrong with paying over $1,500 for a $10 coin if someone wants it enough?!
Sorry, I can't keep up with the impersonation of a litesider.
Yep, there's a lot of money down the drain.
Obscurum per obscurius
and coin doctors are not manisfestations of the devil incarnate. Bullion coins are not the
undoing of western civilization and ultra moderns are not the financial equivalent of shov-
eling money into a furnace. This being said, I am not a fan of any of these. Sure Coin Vault
is "good" entertainment and ACG is often good for a chuckle or two, bullion coins can be very
attractive and there are safer ways to "play" any of the markets than buying two year old coins.
I'd really just rather play with my coins and learn about them on the net, but always I get roped
into defending things I love, and even some I don't.
I didn't create the markets, they are what they are. They are always trying to tell us something
and it's always the same thing, "this is the supply and demand". If you think it's too high- sell.
If you think it's too low- buy. If you don't care....
Ebay name: bhil3
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
But in the case of a "perfect" bullion coin, 2 years young, going for such a price tells me less about the coin but speaks volumes about collectors with their eyes on investment rather than the enjoyment of the coin itself........man I'm getting long winded in my old age
Shep
Sure, I think the market should work. Let people buy and sell what they want and pay what they want for said items. I'm a strong defender of that. I'm not bashing moderns, either.
What I think is crazy, however, is paying a downpayment on a house for one modern bullion coin that just happens to reside in somebody's plastic coffin with a certain number on it given by someone who just might have massive conflicts of interests in putting that number on it. (This is a bit off topic, but we all know what I'm talking about here). Why would someone want to feed their greed and vanity by paying 100 times the value of that bullion coin just because it has the coveted MS-70 number on it?? When in fact, there are tons of similar, if not exactly the same coins around waiting to be slabbed. Or not. Who cares?
I'm not interested in buying that coin, but if others want to waste their money, so be it.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Remember as Johnny Cochrane said: "If the bidding don't quit... it can't be s--t."
My apologies to the sensitive among us.
Rankeye
<< <i>
But in the case of a "perfect" bullion coin, 2 years young, going for such a price tells me less about the coin but speaks volumes about collectors with their eyes on investment rather than the enjoyment of the coin itself........man I'm getting long winded in my old age
Shep >>
Perhaps there is some truth in what you say. But one thing is certain, there are 26 people who have
put down their money for his coin. There are many dozens more who have bid similar amounts and lost.
I do not feel competent to judge the motives of these people, but you can rest assured that if they all
or most of them, bid based on investment potential then there can be no real market and in the long run
these prices can not hold.
I'll bet a lot of these folks are just trying to put together a collection of coins and staying current.
My main objective was just to show the difference in the darkside vs lightside values.
Sorry for the post sounding too "stuck up"
Shep
tulip bulbs and dotcom stocks. Not all US coins fit this category.
It remains to be seen if the coin in question does or not.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
Having said that, there are more people who collect proof eagles than Guineas and that fella could end up making money (but I doubt it).
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
<< <i>Bubbles are excessive demand for things that are not really in short supply like
tulip bulbs and dotcom stocks. Not all US coins fit this category.
It remains to be seen if the coin in question does or not. >>
I was reading about the tulip craze a few months ago. I think the US coin market follows the tulip pattern fairly well. In the US market there are coins which are plainly common just as there were common varieties of cheap tulips. However, some connoisseurs value certain mint state or proof grades over others as flower connoisseurs valued some slightly different varieties over common tulips. Speculation is taking prices for common coins in preferred grades to amazing heights, and one day it will all come crashing down. Some coins will hold their value reasonably well even after the crash, as did some tulips.
Obscurum per obscurius
I just hope whoever wins that auction is an educated collector that understands the role of TPG companies, appreciates the likelyhood of additional coins being certified at the 70 level and feels the registry value (or ownership satisfaction) is worth the price.
-JamminJ
<< <i>
<< <i>Bubbles are excessive demand for things that are not really in short supply like
tulip bulbs and dotcom stocks. Not all US coins fit this category.
It remains to be seen if the coin in question does or not. >>
I was reading about the tulip craze a few months ago. I think the US coin market follows the tulip pattern fairly well. In the US market there are coins which are plainly common just as there were common varieties of cheap tulips. However, some connoisseurs value certain mint state or proof grades over others as flower connoisseurs valued some slightly different varieties over common tulips. Speculation is taking prices for common coins in preferred grades to amazing heights, and one day it will all come crashing down. Some coins will hold their value reasonably well even after the crash, as did some tulips. >>
I can understand your thinking on this, and would even agree that the prices on some
moderns seem "excessive". But there are many moderns which are very difficult to find
in attractive condition which bring very little premium except in the very high and rare grades.
So long as there are some coins like this it's difficult for me to believe that there is much
danger of these crashing. It also seems unlikely the overall modern market is in much danger
when you consider that these are still essentially specialty markets. There are very few who
deal in or service these markets. These are not the earmards of most speculative markets.
For $1150, I will spend my cash on 'REAL' rarities, not "MANUFACTURED RARITIES"
1-Dammit Boy Oct 14,2003
International Coins
"A work in progress"
Wayne
eBay registered name:
Hard_ Search (buyer/bidder, a small time seller)
e-mail: wayne.whatley@gmail.com
WOW!
The title says 1953 but it's actually a 1983 set - I then did a search on the bay of e for 1983 proof sets and there are about 150 listed with most going for less than $10 (with shipping!). Can someone please explain the logic of paying 5 TIMES the going rate for a very common proof set?!?!?!
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
Manufactured rarities find their value in the coin marketplace through the economic principle of,
SUPPLY AND DUMB-MAND
It doesn't look like I know how to make a proper reply
1-Dammit Boy Oct 14,2003
International Coins
"A work in progress"
Wayne
eBay registered name:
Hard_ Search (buyer/bidder, a small time seller)
e-mail: wayne.whatley@gmail.com
I didn't want to create any bad blood over there so I stayed away, but I still wonder what the reaction would be.
Shep
<< <i>How about this one, Newbie.......
Manufactured rarities find their value in the coin marketplace through the economic principle of,
SUPPLY AND DUMB-MAND >>
What is different about the current coin market and the tulip market is that, as Mac points out, one can manufacture rarities in the coin market. The same coin in a PCGS MS-70 holder will almost always sell for more than it will in a PCGS MS-69 holder. Tulip merchants couldn't "crack out" bulbs and try for a different variety classification, but coin speculators oftentimes do try to get grade bumps by resubmitting the same coins. This doesn't apply only to moderns, either. A 1793 cent the Early American Copper crowd said was VF-35 got a bump in price when it came back in PCGS AU-55 plastic.
Obscurum per obscurius
My miss understanding of the reply. It was not meant negative other than I just don't like/appreciate the hyper grading I have seen with USA coins and TGP services. I do NOT mean I am correct, it is just my feelings.
No offense meant.
1-Dammit Boy Oct 14,2003
International Coins
"A work in progress"
Wayne
eBay registered name:
Hard_ Search (buyer/bidder, a small time seller)
e-mail: wayne.whatley@gmail.com
I also believe that anybody has a right to collect what they want and if they have the means to pay that much for a CONDITION RARITY then more power to them. I personally would not drop that much cash on that coin, but then I know a lot of people that would not drop the cash that I have on IHC's (or any of the other coins that I collect).
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
But, Silver Eagle Coins has a MS69 graded Silver Eagle for less than $50.00 - why would a single point difference result in over a $1000.00 increase in value - I would bet that most of us could not tell a MS69 from a MS70 coin. I know I couldn't.
Shep
The opinions voiced in these threads run the usual gamut--from the well thought out replies (such as our friend, Cladking) to the knee-jerk, let's stir the pot, idiot missiles.
That this thread maintains a civil discourse is exactly why I like it here on the Dark Side.
Clankeye
Newbie, you've offended noone!! Also, I doubt you misunderstood anybody's remarks. We're all on the same page here.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Exactly-- we're on page two.
I was only pretending to be offended. If there were clear, universally recognized grades I don't think there would be as much controversy. However, when one grader's MS-68 is an MS-69 at another time to another grader for the exact same coin (and there's a $1,000 difference in price), we have confusion.
Obscurum per obscurius
Shep
1. It is a condtion rarity (note that I did not say it was a rare coin!), i.e. there shouldn't be a whole lot of them available
2. The registry and the ability to say that you have the 'best' (read highest graded) set available - i.e. it is purely eqo driven competition that has ceased to be about the coin and is completely about the number that someone placed on the slab!
The problem that exists with this sort of thing is that you could crack that same coin out 10 times and send it into any of the grading services and depending on the lighting and the mood of the grader that day, you might or might not come back with a coin that grades MS70! In fact, I would be willing to challenge anyone to take thier top pop coins (according to any of the grading services), crack them out of the slabs and resubmit them to see if they come back with the same grades. I would be willing to bet that the majority of the coins would not come back with the same grade! I hold this as a fact because so many of the dealers in the liteside coins are 'crack-out artists' - meaning that they are continually breaking open slabs and resubmitting the coins just to get that one grade bump. And why do they do this? Because there are enough people waiting in line (with thier egos in thier hands) to pay for that 1 extra point on the slab so that they can say they have the BEST!
All you have right now that is supporting all of these high prices and fantastic differences in prices for the one grade bump is the OPINION of the graders at the TPG's. I admit and I agree that these graders are supposed to be the best, but they can still only render an OPINION about the grade of the coin. There is nothing repeatable nor scientific about the process! And, given that it is a subjective opinion, it is neither right nor wrong - it is simply an opinion!
On the flip side of that argument is the question - Can we make it scientific and reapeatable? The irrefutable answer to that question is always no. Sure, you could measure the strike and see if it was complete, you could record dings, bumps and other imperfections and you could also probably figure a way to measure the luster of the coin (although that woud get a little tricky when trying to distinguish between a polished coin and a highly lusterous coin), but the one absolute thing that cannot be done scientifically is EYE-APPEAL. The reason being obvious - eye-appeal is purely subjective and is based on the values of the person who is deciding if the coin has the look that they want - witness the constant back-and-forth arguments and discussions about the toning issue over on the liteside boards! So you could assign a 'technical' grade to a coin based on measurements and scientific findings but you really cannot assign the overall grade to the coin because you would have to leave out one of the biggest 4 grading values of the coin.
I guess what I am trying to say here is that a lot of people are 'betting the farm' based on that 1 point difference in grade. They do so because they believe that 1 point difference is 'right', when in fact, it is simply an opinion and as such, has no basis in either right or wrong and is subject to change without prior notice or warning.
My basic belief on this issue is that one of these days, people will wake up to this FACT and we will see a major adjustment in the price differentials between the grades (especially at the very highest grades).
I have to go back to the best advice I have ever been given since I got into this hobby - buy the coin and not the holder. If you personally can tell the difference between a 69 and a 70, then buy the 70, but don't do it because someone else's opinion of the coin and/or your position in a registry list is the main driving force behind your purchase of the coin!
One other thing that I would add to this is that the basic argument that I am making has nothing to do with whether the coin was minted 2 days ago or 200 years ago - the price differentials between the grades still exist and are still based on nothing more than the opinion of a very fallible human being!
I guess I will get off my soapbox and get back to work. Thanks for listening/reading my rant.
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
all coins regardless of age, but it is the older coins which are more likely to be repeatedly
submitted in hopes of getting a "bump" in grade. It is the older coins which have the largest
absolute increases in value at the high end of the scale.
Yes, it's true that grade is an opinion and to some degree this won't change, but this system
was invented to explain the differences in prices between similar old coins. These coins vary
in more parameters than most moderns and are graded accordingly. Coins can be graded on
absolute scales if "problem" coins are omitted. It is largely the wide variation in surface con-
ditions and preservation of the older coins that confounds attempts at true grading. This hardly
means that there is no opinion involved in the grading of the newer coins, simply that this op-
inion will tend to be more consistent. This is the largest reason that resubmissions are less com-
mon for moderns.
You may not believe this final point is of real consequence, but it is. There are no MS-70 regular
issue moderns. Other than a few one cent coins there are no MS-69 regular issue moderns. Many
regular issue moderns do not appear as MS-67 or MS-68 either. These coins do not exist in these
grades! Many of them are rare in the highest grade! And perhaps most importantly some of them
are rare in the just missed grades too. There are even a few which are elusive even in nice choice
uncirculated condition. People never bothered to collect these coins or to set them aside, and now
after decades of being ignored they are finding some surprises. If you think the non modern col-
lectors are surprised, you should see some of he things collectors are finding.
<< <i>For $1150 or maybe less, I would most gladly enjoy finding say, a scarce date Gothic florin which is truly a no questions, MS66 or better. Hmmm. Can't wait for that new Spink.
For $1150, I will spend my cash on 'REAL' rarities, not "MANUFACTURED RARITIES" >>
Yea, they don't make these anymore.
<< <i>Shep - there is a raging debate that frequently flares up about moderns and condition rarities vs truely rare coins. Any response or thread that you could post over there would simply fan the flames and bring it back to the top of the discussion list. It can sometimes get ugly, bloody and downright nasty, so I usually stay outta that war!
>>
Actually that debate has been winding down on the lite side for a multitude of reasons. Probably
the biggest is that the modern collectors are right and it's beginning to be more widely seen. There
are many who hate these coins and hold the collectors in very low esteem, but this is not a particular
problem for those who collect the coins any more. We can actually discuss the coins without interruption
from the bashers usually.
When you think about it, what is the problem with collecting unpopular coins. We don't bash collectors
of two cent pieces or Islamic coins so why attack people who like moderns?
In all seriousness, I've been collecting moderns all my life, since the mid 70s. I've been cherry-picking all the best coins from change, and I agree with you that true MS high grade coins are rare. One day, or one of these decades, I'll probably get a lot of them slabbed. I just think it's too expensive at the moment. And my coins aren't deteriorating, so I see no need to slab them.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>so why attack people who like moderns? >>
I do believe you can see the distinction between this thread and a thread which is designed as an attack against people who like moderns, right Clad?
I know you are use to fighting the good fight, but sometimes it's just not there.
I don't think anyone on this forum is attacking people who collect moderns. Any more than they attack slab collectors, medal collectors, or any other preference of collecting.
For the record I feel no different about this auction that Shep has highlighted than say... an extra $50,000 being garnered for a Standing Liberty Quarter having a full head.
I think to view this thread as any kind of inditment of modern collectors is taking it too much to heart.
Clankeye