Stage coaches, CC $1 and the grading services

fivecents · October 10, 2003 5:23AM

I know that all the grading services, dealers and collectors allow alot more hits and dings on CC morgan dollars than any other morgan $1 when grading these coins. Several dealers have told me that the CC $1 bags were carried by stage coaches and the rough ride caused them to have alot more nicks and dings than the other mint marked Morgans. Is this true or just a coin myth? If it is untrue, why do the CC mint marked $1s' sport more chatter?

kranky · October 10, 2003 5:47AM

That was the exact reason given in the ANA advanced grading class I took. The services make a 3/4 point allowance for the stagecoach ride.

To me, that's an absurd reason, but if that's what everyone does, that's the way it is.

Elcontador · October 10, 2003 5:51AM

Kranky's right. Go to a show & look at some CC Morgans slabbed as MS 65 in PCGS & NGC holders and you'll see a lot of contact marks on most of them, many on Miss Liberty's cheek.

I have 3 common date GSA CC Morgans; 2 in 5 & 1 in 6. I think one of the 5s was a gift, another looks right. The 6 has very clean surfaces and more eye appeal than the others.

Blackhawk · October 10, 2003 5:53AM

Will they slab a CC dollar with a bullet hole in it caused by the gunfight when the stage coach was being robbed?

stman · October 10, 2003 5:54AM

<< know that all the grading services, dealers and collectors allow alot more hits and dings on CC Morgan dollars than any other Morgan $1 when grading these coins. >>

I don't. A ding is a ding in my book. Even when I own the coin. I understand the logic in being more lenient for the CC Morgan's, and I do love these pieces.

But I just say NO to market grading of any coins.

bearcave · October 10, 2003 5:57AM

<< Will they slab a CC dollar with a bullet hole in it caused by the gunfight when the stage coach was being robbed?

>>

razorface1027 · October 10, 2003 6:00AM

Good one Blackhawk...

fivecents · October 10, 2003 6:05AM

<< That was the exact reason given in the ANA advanced grading class I took. The services make a 3/4 point allowance for the stagecoach ride. >>

Wow!! Thanks Kranky, that is awesome info.

<< To me, that's an absurd reason, but if that's what everyone does, that's the way it is. >>

Some sort of rough handling ocurred to most of the CC dollars that is for sure.

fivecents · October 10, 2003 6:07AM

<< I don't. A ding is a ding in my book. Even when I own the coin. I understand the logic in being more lenient for the CC Morgan's, and I do love these pieces >>

stman.... Got any CC's for sale?

razorface1027 · October 10, 2003 6:11AM

That's pretty cool information! When I'm watching westerns on the boob tube, I always wait to hear the "Clank" on the bar and imagine it's a Morgan. Now, with this newly found info., I'm gonna play stagecoach robber with my sons.....and......my CCs...Thanks!...

dragon · October 10, 2003 6:14AM

If you want to see an ideal example of this lenient grading on CC's, look at virtually any PCGS/NGC certified 1885-CC dollar. This date IMO is the most consistently overgraded date in the entire Morgan series.

Most PCGS/NGC graded MS65 1885-CC dollars are barely MS64's, and most MS66's are usually barely MS65's, accurately graded 1885-CC dollars above the MS64 level are few and far between. The 1880-CC is also another CC date that is consistently overgraded, but not to the extent of the 85-CC IMO.

A really clean 1885-CC is actually a scarce coin, much moreso than the PCGS/NGC pops. would lead you to believe.

dragon

fivecents · October 10, 2003 6:15AM

<< Will they slab a CC dollar with a bullet hole in it caused by the gunfight when the stage coach was
being robbed? >>

Didn't NGC holder a Binion coin with a bullet hole in it. Someone posted it on this board.

coppercoins · October 10, 2003 6:56AM

I agree with Stman et. al. on this one. A coin is a coin, and grading a coin is to be done purely on the basis of the merits of the coin - not where it was made, whether they are typically baggy, whether they typically have weak strikes, etc. If this leaves a reality that CC Morgans almost NEVER reach a 66 grade, so be it. Let the 65 coins reach one value, and let the 66 coins that REALLY are 66 reach a super high value. That's how the market SHOULD work - but it doesn't.

Coins that are baggy and have weak strikes deserve a lower MS grade, while the truly rare example that exhibits fewer marks and a stronger strike deserve the loftier prices for the merits of the coin. Period.

I have also heard that some people (grading services included) will also allow for more on key date and very low mintage coins - which also shouldn't be the case. A 1909S VDB cent should be graded on identical standards as a 1909P VDB cent. But they aren't, and that's just the reality.

stman · October 10, 2003 7:04AM

<< stman.... Got any CC's for sale? >>

Sure, but just because I might be tough on grading doesn't mean they are going to be cheap!!!

razorface1027 · October 10, 2003 7:13AM

I agree with dragon regarding the 85-CC..(eg: I just received 4 GSA CCs from PCGS, 80/79-CC, 81-CC, 84-CC and 85-CC). Here's the kicker...The 80/79-CC is CLEARLY a 64 and received a 63; the 85-CC is CLEARLY a 63 and received a 64. I was very upset; however, their, what I consider very leniant grading on my 81-CC, made up for the despair I was experiencing about the 80/79-CC. The 81-CC came back as a 64-PL, when indeed all it warrented was a 62PL....Welp, ya just can't win'em all!...

stman · October 10, 2003 7:17AM

Here is a 85cc in the gsa holder. I can't find the rev scan at the moment but it's nice. What grade you give it according to what the grading services are giving out on these? I also scanned it to show the marks as well.

EDIT TO ADD: Dragon you've seen me post this and nailed the grade as far as my opinion. No cheating!!!
I'm curious what the other folks feel it is.

coppercoins · October 10, 2003 8:35AM

Stman - Looks like a 64 to me, but I'd bet the slabbers would stick an easy 65 grade on it. The prime focal area is destroyed with marks, but the rest of the coin is basically clean...too bad it's not the other way around.

fivecents · October 10, 2003 8:49AM

stman... I would say it is a MS63, but a MS64 with the CC grading factor added in.

<< Coins that are baggy and have weak strikes deserve a lower MS grade, while the truly rare example that exhibits fewer marks and a stronger strike deserve the loftier prices for the merits of the coin. Period. >>

coppercoins... The grading services use the same grading scale for 1949-D, 50-D and the 51-D Franklin halves that they use for Carson City dollars. They allow ALOT of bag marks on these dates. Trust me, Franklin half bags never rode on the stage coach.

LAWMAN · October 10, 2003 8:53AM

In order to tell whether your CC $1 rode in a stagecoach, smell it. If you smell the faintest hint of horse manure, you've got one. Or, take it to a Well Fargo Bank. It it shows the slightest interest in the picture of the old stage coach and horses, yours rode in a stage coach.

I thought most of them languished in bank vaults for 80 years or so.

numonebuyer · October 10, 2003 8:55AM

I would grade it MS-64 and no higher.

Numonebuyer

Gilbert · October 10, 2003 11:51PM

stman,

At a quick glance, one might call this one a 64, but I can see the TPGs calling this on 65 and maybe even a 66. I guess I could accept a so-called gem grade of 65; those "marks" look really superficial and the cheek is clear, the strike is pretty decent and the planchet looks good. Trying to think like the TPGs, I am leaning toward 66, however, were these mark in the hair only the grade would probably be limited only by how much of a strike one wants for a higher grade.

stman · October 11, 2003 1:40AM

Thanks for the responses on the Gsa I posted. I'm never able to get the hair over the ear to show up good, always get a flash at that point even when trying to scan at different angles. BTW, it is a decent strike compared to many I've seen out there.

I bought the coin from a guy that was even a tougher tech grader than myself. He called it 63++++ with a slight shot at 64. I have seen NGC grade these in the holders with a ton more bag marks then this at 64.

Gilbert hit it pretty good, as I mentioned I scanned the piece to try and show the marks rather than not. They are superficial and do not open any metal. I grade the coin at 64 and no higher. It will stay in the GSA holder, for as long as I own it at least.

gsaguy · October 11, 2003 1:44AM

5 cents,

It does make a nice story, but I don't really believe those dollars made long stage coach rides. I think they were transported via train for the most part.

There's no doubt that in the early days of the mining of the Comstock Lode at Virginia City, that the bullion itself had to make long stage coach rides to the assay office and mint in San Francisco. The cost and difficulty of transporting the ore was one of the reasons that the mine owners were able to successfully lobby the U.S. Government for a mint in nearby Carson City. However, due to assorted problems with the CC assay office and mint, some silver sellers continued to send their bullion overland to San Francisco anyway.

I do seem to recall that by the time the CC mint was established and functioning, that an operational rail system was in place. I'll review my research data to try to confirm that, but believe it to be the case.

As for why the grading services seem to be easier on the CC's......dunno.

GSAGUY

fivecents · October 11, 2003 1:49AM

<< It does make a nice story, but I don't really believe those dollars made long stage coach rides. I think they were transported via train for the most part. >>

GSAGUY....If you would write a book on CC Morgans, I would not have to ask the board members these questions.

BillJones · October 11, 2003 2:10AM

Bang! Bang! Chong! Chong!

Stage coach or horse cart, a lot of Morgan dollars, not just the CCs got chewed up because they were dumped into mint bags and then moved, not very genteelly, from one vault or one part of the vault floor to another.

I disagree with the concept the grading should be relaxed for the CC dollars. All dollars should be graded the same with some occasional adjustments for strike. There are properly graded CC coins out there that are as nice as their non-CC counterparts. You just have to look at a lot of coins to find them. I look for them, pay premium prices and usually sell them to other dealers for bigger premiums. Unfortunately too many collectors have “Gray Sheet-itus” and think they should never pay more than “bid” or “ask.” It’s a fatal disease if your goal is to end up with a really attractive collection that will increase in value in the future. Most marginal or overgraded coins don’t cut it (sell for premium prices) in the long run.

fivecents · October 11, 2003 2:17AM

BillJones...I totally agree, but the grading services make the rules to the grading game. A smart dealer/collector learns how to use the rules to his advatage, even if he or she does not agree with them.

edited for my bad spelling

Stage coaches, CC $1 and the grading services

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