Where do dealers get inventory . . .
DMWJR
Posts: 6,020 ✭✭✭✭✭
besides TT, Eureka, CCE, walk-in's, Ebay, and auctions?
Doug
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I've bought a few collections, but most of the stuff that the public offers you at the shows has problems and is "optimistically" priced.
K S
TT, Eureka, CCE, ebay, no, no, no and no. Walk-ins have a minimal effect on quality purchases and the auctions are a decent although extrememly competitive venue. It's tough to beat all dealers and collectors who have vied for the same coin, then have to bring it home and mark it up some more. It's done at times but it's not the best way.
Our clients are an excellent source. After being in business for 12 years, there are always clients who need to trade, upgrade, or sell their collections. And it's particularly convenient knowing that the coins they got from us are of the quality we are more than happy to get back. This makes the negotiation process much easier. None of this "I need to see the coin first" kind of stuff.
In addition, if a client has a special want list item like a 1793 PCGS XF-45 Half Cent for instance, I could go to another client whom I may have placed such a coin with previously to if he has an interest in selling it.
Coin shows are also good thanks to the sheer volume available. But as with anywhere, one needs to filter through a lot of junk to find the gems.
My mother in law recently sold her late husband's coin collection to a local coin shop. She's an independent woman and didn't want to involve me. (mother in law syndrome) It was mostly raw high grade gold. I think she got $15,000 for $40,000 worth of good solid material. The dealer also advised her not to seek other bids because he was the best price she'd get. Gotta love coin dealers.
Well, that's partially true.
Take wild toned Morgans. They are made to order by some doctors, I mean dealers.
MOST dealers get inventory from bidding on estates and offering about 20-50% of bid.
.
Please, please take me to the estate sales where you can get coins for 20-50% of bid! I know no dealers who have that kind of luck! If you can do that, my hat's off to you!
I thought this would be an interesting topic. Obviously Tonelover has the sound business model in place, but I like the Coin University theory!
Actually I was just curious because I don't see how dealers can use CCE/TT/Eureka and still make a profit unless they are really socking it to their customers. And now that auctions are on line and accessible to the collectors directly, that avenue is drying up.
So, in conclusion, it seems that dealers are ripping off estates!!!
Marc
maybe shinycoinboy went poof too. (sounds like a name Adam Sandler would come up with)
Michael, you must be thinking of an estate sale where antiques dealers come into an open house and make offers on all the furniture. Other than that, you must not know any coin dealers.
Most coin estates are liquidated by survivors walking a collection into a dealer's shop, and selling the entire collection to the dealer for whatever he offers them. Dates and mint marks are ignored, you can forget about varieties like the three-legged buffalo, (in the estate I handled before I was a coin pro the dealer said it was counterfeit) and all MS coins are automatically valued at AU. You think this is an exaggeration???????? I haven't even begun to expose what is STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE in the coin market.
The seller is almost always a wife who has no knowlege of what's actually in the collection. She's generally upset about her loss and not interested in getting more than one bid. The dealer will often discourage her from asking other dealers for their estimated value, and if for some insane reason she decides to leave his shop for a second opinion, he becomes rude and abusive and chides her for wasting his time or looking for a free appraisal. A coin dealer will almost always break agency laws (criminal laws written in almost every state to prohibit someone from marketing themselves as an expert, then profiting off their "expert" advice) but is almost never prosecuted for it. And I can go on and on and on.............
IWOG, I have overheard a dealer bragging about doing this to a widow. It made me want to throw up. He sold the man all of the coins, and then after he died, the dealer cleaned out the coins for the widow. I will never be back in his shop.
Being a lawyer, I understand that one bad apple spoils the barrel. I know all dealers are not like this, but unfortunately some are.
His latest one does not hold water. He tells us that he was able to look at his mother-in-law's collection of gold long enough to determine that it was worth $40,000. One would assume that he told her that, yet she goes out and sells it for $15,000. Does anyone detect that there is something fishy here?
tell the wife or husband where the coins are and where the catalogue is. Then notate either a reliable dealer or
auction house that you have done bussiness with and list the names of the indeviduals
that she or he should talk to. A spause should not be left in the dark as to important assets.
You owe it to the one you love to see that they are taken care of by your estate. Of course, If you hate
them, then I guess you keep everything a secret.
Camelot
RR
<< <i>All coin collectors should catalogue there collection with estimated updated values, >>
I keep my best coins in my safe deposit box, with it there is a scan of the coins showing cost or value.
There is a note that says where to take them and who to get offers from, and to get more than one offer.
Www.killermarbles.com
Www.suncitycoin.com
I was good friends with my late father in law (we shared coin collecting and other interests) and I knew his collection well. I'm not sure what kind of conversations you have with YOUR numismatic friends, but "how much could you get" wasn't what we discussed and his wife had no interest in the whole affair anyway. When he passed away, his wife liquidated his collection and I didn't find out what happened until after the fact. I had (wrongly) assumed she was going to keep it for her grandchildren. Why she didn't consult me I have no idea, but she's very independent and decided to handle it on her own.
Do I have contempt for most coin dealers? Absolutely! I have intimate first hand knowlege of their general practices and nothing I have ever said has been an exaggeration.
One guy has a very small shop where he displays about 50 slabs and 100 raw coins (mostly morgans and half dollars), with very little stock besides what's in the case. It seems that he has an endless supply of people coming in to sell him coins, and pays mostly bullion for the silver (even the good stuff). He turns the coins quickly to other dealers, and believe it or not, can support 2 families on what he pulls in. I myself watched him offer an older couple $12.00 each for their collection of BU Indian head cents. It's hard not to speak up in a situation like that, but the guys in business to make money. He'll just say an extra prayer on Sunday and everything will be A-OK.
The other guy is a dealer who came into his own about the time that people were selling their collections because of the high bullion value...about 1980. The guy has a big stock and will tell you all kinds of stories about putting back valuable coins he bought at that time for bullion costs. He's kind of high pressure and will not look at your coin without running it down or offering about 10% of what it's worth. This guy also buys alot from people, but probably doesn't turn it as fast.
Neither one of these guys has any idea about mintages, varieties, or anything else that a coin collector would like to talk about. They don't want anyone to talk coins, have nowhere in their shop to sit, and are rude. They like it when their shop is empty except for them and their next victim.
I know all coin dealers aren't like these two, but because this is what I've got to work with, my impressions are formed from their behavior.
<< <i>Where do dealers get inventory . . . >>
From eBay and dead people.
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since 8/1/6
These day, for the higher end "better" material, its more luck than anything else. We can buy via the public (our customer base) or from dealers at shows (about 80% of our coins are purchased that way). Major auctions are another venue. The key is to have the "right" relationship with the dealers who make a living ferreting out fresh deals. In order to do so, you have to spend an awful lot of money with them continuosly-and expect to take some lumps every so often.
The smaller "shop" dealers don't have as much action and need to make a little stronger margins when buying from the public.
Ebay is also an option too-but it can be too time consuming to look for one or two pieces at wholesale level. Many dealers (at least the ones I know) prefer to trade at shows.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
That turned me off of coins and coin shops for a long time. Just in the last couple months I finally ventured back into a coin shop, not to far from where I work. The place is called Colfax Coin Center and the people are friendly and they appear to have decent prices. I haven't tried selling anything, but what they charge is about 10% below the PCGS price guide (for PCGS coins).
Does anyone understand the way this thread is headed???
O.K. maybe the one about all my people owning the banks was a bit fugly, but so is the way this thread has turned. Dealers getting their inventory from ripping off widows ??? Look I know their are some scumbags out there, but lumping all dealers with shops together isn't fair!!!
Please Please !!!! Bill & other honost dealers out there don't take personnel offense because some people have had bad experiences with some rotton apples in the buisness, I had more then my share of being ripped by those type of slimeballs in the 70's to know that they are there, but I wont lump all of anyone in the same catagory.
As in any other proffesion [spelling?] there are indeed two types, but I would say they are the good & the bad not internet dealer -vs- brick & mortar. To say that some dealers engage in estate ripp offs of widows is true, to say that most dealers get their inventories that way??? Because you have been ripped or know people that have gotton ripped doesn't & shouldn't lump all dealers in with the slime balls that do this.
Les
The other guy is a dealer who came into his own about the time that people were selling their collections because of the high bullion value...about 1980. The guy has a big stock and will tell you all kinds of stories about putting back valuable coins he bought at that time for bullion costs. He's kind of high pressure and will not look at your coin without running it down or offering about 10% of what it's worth. This guy also buys alot from people, but probably doesn't turn it as fast.
Man, you must live in my hometown!!! I know a guy just like this.
Barberlover: Most of us know very well that you can't paint this group with a broad brush. My original question was where do the dealers get their inventory. So where do you (or your dealer) get inventory?
Greg
That's not to say that you shouldn't buy and sell coins for fun and profit. I sell coins out of my personal collection all the time. The money I make is the result of careful selection and knowlege instead of feeding off of widows and orphans. When a buyer on ebay gets one of my coins for less than it's worth, I congratulate him knowing that most of my stuff gets retail or better. Collectors are friends, NOT POTENTIAL PREY! The whole perspective is different.
The only drawback is I could never make enough money to support myself. I have a day job.
A friend and I partnered on a deal to purchase a collection that was left to a family by a collector, (the dad), who passed on. As is the smart thing to do, the children took the collection to more than one potential purchaser to get bids - us, and two real coin shop dealers.
We offered good, reasonable money for the coins and came in between the two dealers. All three bids were close in total. So, at least in this case, the dealers were very fair with the family in what they offered.
Russ, NCNE
There isn't enough time in life to go around protecting folks from their own actions. Whatever happened to common sense? Last point, if you have a collection that you know will still be there when you go, don't you think it behooves you to leave instructions to your heirs on how best to dispose of it and with some idea what the value is? Probably not, its easier to find fault with others.
very well put and that should be at the front door of every coin shop for the people who think they got screwed to read.
Since you leave close to where I do, I would like to know which dealers, locally, you feel are "good".
Ron
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If a seller consults ANYONE who claims to be a PROFESSIONAL, that buyer-dealer-whatever is bound by law to respect an agency relationship. An agency relationship means that if a seller is relying on a dealer for his/her professional opinion on the value of that coin, it is NO LONGER a seller beware transaction and the coin dealer BY LAW cannot rip off the seller. Do coin dealers ignore this? Absolutely......they've decided as a group that FRAUD (telling a seller that a coin is worth $100 when it's really worth $100,000) is a legitimate business practice and do it on a daily basis. You want to know what makes me really sick??? The fact that people actually try and JUSTIFY this practice!
I agree, that note should be hung on every coin shop's front door. I think there is a general feeling out there that if you need help or advice on coins - you should go to the coin shop. Maybe 20, 30, 50 years ago this was the case. It's now been made clear that coin dealers are not out there to enjoy coins with you, but simply to profit from you and take advantage of your ignorance. So, yes I agree some sort of warning should be hung on every coin shop door.
The only problem is that NO dealer would EVER agree to that sign being hung.
Luckily I have a dealer near me that still seems to enjoy collecting, and talking, coins. A rare breed indeed but he gets my business.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
<< <i>Since you leave close to where I do, I would like to know which dealers, locally, you feel are "good". >>
Ron,
There are a couple in this area that are fair in both buying and selling. Renton Coin Shop is one. Old style dealer, very few slabbed and even has a bidboard. They don't try to cheat customers either way, but they also don't have exactly the best material around.
The other you've dealt with at shows - Discount Coins Of Kirkland. The guy with the cute daughter. A little bit of a "car salesman" type, but he's always been fair in our dealings.
Russ, NCNE
Suggesting that someone get several opinions of the value of a coin collection is sound advice, does not imply that anything about coin dealers. If your mother-in-law was left uninformed as to the value of her husband's collection then to me it would be a simple matter of communication through your wife as to its value if she didn't care for your opinion. Hopefully your wife has a relationship with your mother and you have shared with your wife how to dispose of your collection and what it's value might be.
One last thing, there isn't one of us God willingly and luck on our side that doesn't realize that some day we will be old and less sharp then we are today. There are trust departments in most every bank, estate attorneys etc. All of these folk get paid to protect widows, the uninformed and those who don't have the desire to learn what their assets are worth. An estate attorney or bank trust department would and could handle the dispostion of assets. We do it all the time, yes I am a banker. The one thing we can't do is force our services upon someone.
What is considered a "ripoff" and what is not? Is it a percentage of FMV? If so, what is that percentage below which it is considered a "ripoff"? And, how do you determine FMV? Is it wholesale, retail? Auction pricing? CU pricing? Trends? How do you determine grade? ANA grading standards? PCGS? ACG?
I think there is too much talk about agency laws and the sense of outrage. Let us not be lawyers (or, pretend lawyers) for a moment and just be plain sensible. Try answering my questions, and also try playing devil's advocate.
I wholeheartedly agree that ripping off people is morally reprehensible. It may also be unethical and illegal. But, in order to try to get a handle on this issue, we need to set aside the emotions and build a concrete structure around this issue.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>it would've been helpful if you had explicitly asked that dealers only respond to your query. >>
Like that would happen.
Russ, NCNE
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
in returning a rare variety quarter which had been stolen in Florida in '67 (?) in the DuPont
robbery. They went on to say that they didn't even seek the return of the $150 that they
had paid a walk in for the coin. Unfortunately many of the readers recognized that the com-
mon variety that they thought they were buying was worth several thousand dollars. It was
a public relations nightmare that went all wrong.
To some extent it is to be expected that dealers are going to pay much less than market
value for some items which walk in. Items in small quantity, low quality, or which lack a
a ready market are just not going to bring full value when offered by someone who obvious-
ly doesn't know what he's selling. Other times SOME dealers' offers go far beyond the pale,
and really constitute illegal activity or dishonesty.