Can someone tell me why dealers are necessary? Every town has a coin club so collectors can meet, ebay gets by FAR the best prices of any other liquidation method, and a quick call to any estate auction house (including heritage) will result in 80% on the dollar or better. WHY do we need a coin dealer to get in the way of these transactions?
Do you want to know what federal law says about an apprasial in a real estate transaction? Link
(1) If an appraisal is prepared by a fee appraiser, the appraiser shall be engaged directly by the regulated institution or its agent, and have no direct or indirect interest, financial or otherwise, in the property or the transaction.
Do you know if someone both appraises a home and has a financial interest in that home, it's a CRIME???? Someone tell me how come a coin dealer buying a $100,000 coin collection for $25,000 isn't guilty of the same CRIME that he would be in a real estate transaction? The reason is because the widow who got screwed in this deal isn't going to know it 99% of the time, so there's been no pressure to make coin dealers accountable for their conduct. The entire thing is an abomination and needs to be fixed.
To answer your question EVP, a "ripoff" is any transaction between a coin dealer and a seller where the coin dealer holds himself out to be a professional numismatist, and the seller is seeking his advice as to value. BASIC AGENCY LAW, and on the books right now. If the dealer was required to tell the truth, and put up a sign saying "I'm going to try and give you as little as humanly possible for your coins, please seek your own agent" I'd be satisfied.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
In the case of that DuPont 25c, I'd be more inclined to price that coin as if it were type. That means that they paid about 1/5th of its wholesale value.
The reason why? Because I don't want to assume that the buyer recognized that the coin is *that* special. Ok, maybe the buyer thought he was buying a pattern, so they paid about 1/12th of the coin's supposed value.
Beyond this, I am uncomfortable presuming further guilt...
To get material one needs to look EVERYWHERE. The best way to make money with out being a full fledged dealer is to know one, two, or three coin series, but really know them well. Know the nuances, the demand, grading to a tee and what a nice original or what a cleaned coin looks like. You may not be able to make a living at it, but it can supplement your hobby.
Only crazy fools become full time dealers!
Just visited a long time dealer in my area and bought $750.00 worth of coins. Put them on Ebay and sold them for $1050.00, a nice little $300.00 spiff - minus Ebay costs and my time. I stuck to just Barbers and walkers.
P.S. Tom, if you are reading this I did not make any money on the 1903-S Barber dime you bought...I just broke even on that one!
Beyond this, I am uncomfortable presuming further guilt...
>>
I don't so much presume guilt as observe a nightmare. I know how these things go even among knowledgeable collectors and dealers. One coin will be figured at less than its worth to compensate for too much on another. The only thing that matters is the total. Still $150 was far too little for even the common variety of this gem. The company might have recog- nized this before disclosing the purchase price and acted accordingly or at the very least ex- plained some extenuating circumstances for the apparently low price. Whether this consti- tutes any sort of proof of the low prices paid in shops or not is open to debate, but it's likely this company would act differently today in a similar situation.
Very interesting comments! Thanks for the relevant ones. By the way, I'm not going into the coin business. But I'm a businessman, and I wondered where the material comes from. I have heard dealers complaining about having to compete at auctions with collectors more than ever. _____________________
As for the OT material, the entire discussion boils down to this conversation:
Widow/non-collector: [enters coin shop and walks up to shop dealer] "Hello, I have some coins here. Are they worth anything?"
Shop Dealer: [briefly glances at coins] "I'll give you $2.00 for them all."
The widow/non-collector is seeking appraisal information.
The shop dealer just want to tell her what he will buy them for.
It's apples and oranges. But the question is, does the dealer have a duty to answer her question? Above he merely avoided the question.
In California, the expertise of the seller is the main factor. The fact that the dealer is refusing to render an opinion of value directly doesn't change the fact that the INTENT of the seller is to consult an expert, and get a fair price for her coins. Thus an agency relationship exists even if the dealer doesn't want it.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
I dont believe that an "agency" can exist without "consideration" being paid....??????
When I am offered the opportunity to examine a collection, be it from an estate or just a long forgotten accumulation, my FIRST question to the other party is "Do you intend to sell this lot"?..... I then explain the difference/marketability of the "keys" in the group (if any), and try to explain why some coins are worth little if any over bullion....... Many times, I am not interested in the lot, but many times I am..... I approach each lot and estimate its value both at what I feel would be reasonable retail AND wholesale levels...... And I offer wholesale money....... On the condition of purchasing the WHOLE lot..... Yes I have to dispose of the "chaff", but I also engrain in the sellers mind the difficulty of them "piecing" out the lot especially if large and varied......
Many times I can tell the seller has a ridiculously high number in their heads, and I typically get around that by telling them they have nice coins with nice memories attached, and that they should probably "hold" them for their children and/or grandchildren....... I'd rather leave them that way than thinking I was trying to diminish what they thought was great.....
I've never lost a lot that I wanted because a "dealer" outbid me, and in fact, I feel better when the seller has shopped the "lot" around and gotten a few different offers.......
Cam-Slam 2-6-04 3 "DAMMIT BOYS" 4 "YOU SUCKS" Numerous POTD (But NONE officially recognized) Seated Halves are my specialty ! Seated Half set by date/mm COMPLETE ! Seated Half set by WB# - 289 down / 31 to go !!!!! (1) "Smoebody smack him" from CornCobWipe ! IN MEMORY OF THE CUOF
Hello! I'm a new girl on the block but I believe in Integrity in all areas of my life but find it extremely important in business! My grader and I work very hard seeking out coins to trade with other dealers for what we're looking for or grade and sending them into PCGS for grading and then selling them at the going market value, and have just recently starting auctioning on e-bay. I started with my own collection of mostly Lincoln cents which was quite huge to begin with and I recently decided to make a business out of it. Between my grader and I, we've been getting most of my coins from other dealers, and the more the word gets out about us the more people we know or people we get in contact with are friends of a friend, want to have their collections appraised and then they usually want us to make an offer. The appraisal prices are what to the best of our knowledge is the going market value and if we aren't sure we tell them that too. Of course market value can't be what we pay, and we would never discourage some one from getting a second opinion if anything we encourage it. I guess I'm suprised at so many negitive experiences with coin dealers, and I'm sorry to hear it. But there's no doubt you should just lump every one in one group. I've come across some rude shop owners too, but most of them are just great, exspecially the old timers who have all day to educate you on coins! LOL!
LTC -- you are obviously one who treats customers with dignity and respect. If you do what you say, then I don't think you will ever hurt for business.
About the "consideration" thing though, the term is a term of art, and is subject to somewhat of a contorted legal analysis. In sum, what you don't consider to be consideration, can be held to be just that by law. There are also many substitutes for consideration.
In answer to your original question (and I will repeat it here, as this thread seems to have gotten somewhat off track) "Where do dealers get inventory?"......
Speaking for ourselves, we acquire the vast majority of our inventory at coins shows, primarily from wholesalers who we have long standing relationships with, and from clients, most of whom are existing customers, but a number of whom are new ones. We also obtain a very small percentage of our inventory via major auctions and an occasional piece through Ebay, etc.
While I don't doubt, that in the case of some coin shops, the buying practices are sometimes less-than-fair (or worse), our buying experiences and those of many other dealers I know, have been very different than what has been described by some in this thread.
For instance, most of our purchases are of certified coins and when dealing with the public, rarely are we the only ones making offers on the coins. We often receive emails listing coins for sale and which have been sent to several other dealers simultaneously. With the aid of the internet, email, etc, sellers are much better able to shop their coins to multiple buyers/bidders at the same time and rarely receive just one offer or appraisal. And, that is as it should be.
We typically offer approximately 80% of what we think we might be able to sell a coin for, on a retail basis. And, in the case of particularly liquid, more generic types of coins, such as $20 Liberty and Saints, we work on a smaller margin. We also offer to take certain coins on consignment basis and work on approximately a 10% to 15% margin. A number of other dealers do the same.
Where do the wholesalers get their coins and what do they pay? I assume you are going to tell us that wholesalers have lower overhead and work on a thinner margins than retailers, but it still seems that their sources of inventory might have garnered a higher price by selling directly to a retail dealer, at least in theory. In other words, if I want to sell a coin and a retail dealer will pay 80% of retail to a wholesaler, wouldn't that same dealer offer the same price to me? And wouldn't that be more than the wholesaler would offer since the wholesaler has to make a profit by selling the same coin to a retail dealer at 20% off the retail price?
Or are wholesalers more likely to buy entire collections, including stuff that many retailers would shun? So the collector, widow, orphan, gets a blended price that is fair since he/she is able to get cash for the material that most retailers wont buy which offsets getting a lower price for the goodies.
<< <i>Where do the wholesalers get their coins and what do they pay? >>
Many dealers, whether wholesalers or retailers, acquire their inventory the same way that we do. Others buy primarily out of auctions and/or estate sales. Many of the U.S. gold coins which appear on the market are purchased in Europe by dealers who have long standing connections with banks and dealers over there.
They pay a wide range of prices, I imagine.
<< <i>In other words, if I want to sell a coin and a retail dealer will pay 80% of retail to a wholesaler, wouldn't that same dealer offer the same price to me? >>
In many cases, yes. In the examples I gave in my earlier post, the prices would apply to whomever has the coins for sale. The wholesaler will often offer a similar price to what a retailer will - in other words, wholesalers and retailers often compete against each other for the same coins and are often willing to pay similar prices.
This sometimes precludes certain dealers from being able to do much business with each other. Even if they are both fair and willing to work on very small mark-ups, if they have the same buy prices for given coins, it makes it all-but-impossible, to then mark the coins up and sell them to each other.
<< <i>Or are wholesalers more likely to buy entire collections, including stuff that many retailers would shun? >>
In many cases, yes, but, if there is enough desirable material in the collection, most any dealer will be interested in acquiring it.
IWOG, Every town has a coin club . Unfortunately, this is not true. Many areas do not have a coin club and one isn't readily available for hundreds of miles. It is evident that your opinions are as valuable on this board as they are to your mother-in-law.
Spring National Battlefield Coin Show is April 3-5, 2025 at the Eisenhower Hotel Ballroom, Gettysburg, PA. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
I think it is funny when Coin shop dealers start rambling on about how professionally graded coins are bad and they don't like them so they will not stock them for customers. Well of course not! It takes the control and chance for a rip-off out of their hands and they don't like that. The grade is assigned in a tamper-evident case the coin stays in and most guides will clearly define a price or price range. Their is no more haggling over what the real grade is and how much that it is worth after deciding that issue. Which is subjective for both parties involved if the coin is raw. For newbies, always buy slabbed until you learn how to grade what series you are collecting or planning to collect.
Comments
Do you want to know what federal law says about an apprasial in a real estate transaction? Link
(1) If an appraisal is prepared by a fee appraiser, the appraiser shall be engaged directly by the regulated institution or its agent, and have no direct or indirect interest, financial or otherwise, in the property or the transaction.
Do you know if someone both appraises a home and has a financial interest in that home, it's a CRIME???? Someone tell me how come a coin dealer buying a $100,000 coin collection for $25,000 isn't guilty of the same CRIME that he would be in a real estate transaction? The reason is because the widow who got screwed in this deal isn't going to know it 99% of the time, so there's been no pressure to make coin dealers accountable for their conduct. The entire thing is an abomination and needs to be fixed.
To answer your question EVP, a "ripoff" is any transaction between a coin dealer and a seller where the coin dealer holds himself out to be a professional numismatist, and the seller is seeking his advice as to value. BASIC AGENCY LAW, and on the books right now. If the dealer was required to tell the truth, and put up a sign saying "I'm going to try and give you as little as humanly possible for your coins, please seek your own agent" I'd be satisfied.
In the case of that DuPont 25c, I'd be more inclined to price that coin as if it were type. That means that they paid about 1/5th of its wholesale value.
The reason why? Because I don't want to assume that the buyer recognized that the coin is *that* special. Ok, maybe the buyer thought he was buying a pattern, so they paid about 1/12th of the coin's supposed value.
Beyond this, I am uncomfortable presuming further guilt...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Only crazy fools become full time dealers!
Just visited a long time dealer in my area and bought $750.00 worth of coins. Put them on Ebay and sold them for $1050.00, a nice little $300.00 spiff - minus Ebay costs and my time. I stuck to just Barbers and walkers.
P.S. Tom, if you are reading this I did not make any money on the 1903-S Barber dime you bought...I just broke even on that one!
Tyler
<< <i>
Beyond this, I am uncomfortable presuming further guilt...
>>
I don't so much presume guilt as observe a nightmare. I know how these things go even
among knowledgeable collectors and dealers. One coin will be figured at less than its worth
to compensate for too much on another. The only thing that matters is the total. Still $150
was far too little for even the common variety of this gem. The company might have recog-
nized this before disclosing the purchase price and acted accordingly or at the very least ex-
plained some extenuating circumstances for the apparently low price. Whether this consti-
tutes any sort of proof of the low prices paid in shops or not is open to debate, but it's likely
this company would act differently today in a similar situation.
Yeah, like have smarter press releases!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Very interesting comments! Thanks for the relevant ones. By the way, I'm not going into the coin business. But I'm a businessman, and I wondered where the material comes from. I have heard dealers complaining about having to compete at auctions with collectors more than ever.
_____________________
As for the OT material, the entire discussion boils down to this conversation:
Widow/non-collector: [enters coin shop and walks up to shop dealer] "Hello, I have some coins here. Are they worth anything?"
Shop Dealer: [briefly glances at coins] "I'll give you $2.00 for them all."
The widow/non-collector is seeking appraisal information.
The shop dealer just want to tell her what he will buy them for.
It's apples and oranges. But the question is, does the dealer have a duty to answer her question? Above he merely avoided the question.
David
When I am offered the opportunity to examine a collection, be it from an estate or just a long forgotten accumulation, my FIRST question to the other party is "Do you intend to sell this lot"?..... I then explain the difference/marketability of the "keys" in the group (if any), and try to explain why some coins are worth little if any over bullion....... Many times, I am not interested in the lot, but many times I am..... I approach each lot and estimate its value both at what I feel would be reasonable retail AND wholesale levels...... And I offer wholesale money....... On the condition of purchasing the WHOLE lot..... Yes I have to dispose of the "chaff", but I also engrain in the sellers mind the difficulty of them "piecing" out the lot especially if large and varied......
Many times I can tell the seller has a ridiculously high number in their heads, and I typically get around that by telling them they have nice coins with nice memories attached, and that they should probably "hold" them for their children and/or grandchildren....... I'd rather leave them that way than thinking I was trying to diminish what they thought was great.....
I've never lost a lot that I wanted because a "dealer" outbid me, and in fact, I feel better when the seller has shopped the "lot" around and gotten a few different offers.......
3 "DAMMIT BOYS"
4 "YOU SUCKS"
Numerous POTD (But NONE officially recognized)
Seated Halves are my specialty !
Seated Half set by date/mm COMPLETE !
Seated Half set by WB# - 289 down / 31 to go !!!!!
(1) "Smoebody smack him" from CornCobWipe !
IN MEMORY OF THE CUOF
Hello! I'm a new girl on the block but I believe in Integrity in all areas of my life but find it extremely important in business! My grader and I work very hard seeking out coins to trade with other dealers for what we're looking for or grade and sending them into PCGS for grading and then selling them at the going market value, and have just recently starting auctioning on e-bay.
I started with my own collection of mostly Lincoln cents which was quite huge to begin with and I recently decided to make a business out of it.
Between my grader and I, we've been getting most of my coins from other dealers, and the more the word gets out about us the more people we know or people we get in contact with are friends of a friend, want to have their collections appraised and then they usually want us to make an offer. The appraisal prices are what to the best of our knowledge is the going market value and if we aren't sure we tell them that too. Of course market value can't be what we pay, and we would never discourage some one from getting a second opinion if anything we encourage it.
I guess I'm suprised at so many negitive experiences with coin dealers, and I'm sorry to hear it. But there's no doubt you should just lump every one in one group. I've come across some rude shop owners too, but most of them are just great, exspecially the old timers who have all day to educate you on coins! LOL!
Katrina
LTC -- you are obviously one who treats customers with dignity and respect. If you do what you say, then I don't think you will ever hurt for business.
About the "consideration" thing though, the term is a term of art, and is subject to somewhat of a contorted legal analysis. In sum, what you don't consider to be consideration, can be held to be just that by law. There are also many substitutes for consideration.
In answer to your original question (and I will repeat it here, as this thread seems to have gotten somewhat off track) "Where do dealers get inventory?"......
Speaking for ourselves, we acquire the vast majority of our inventory at coins shows, primarily from wholesalers who we have long standing relationships with, and from clients, most of whom are existing customers, but a number of whom are new ones. We also obtain a very small percentage of our inventory via major auctions and an occasional piece through Ebay, etc.
While I don't doubt, that in the case of some coin shops, the buying practices are sometimes less-than-fair (or worse), our buying experiences and those of many other dealers I know, have been very different than what has been described by some in this thread.
For instance, most of our purchases are of certified coins and when dealing with the public, rarely are we the only ones making offers on the coins. We often receive emails listing coins for sale and which have been sent to several other dealers simultaneously. With the aid of the internet, email, etc, sellers are much better able to shop their coins to multiple buyers/bidders at the same time and rarely receive just one offer or appraisal. And, that is as it should be.
We typically offer approximately 80% of what we think we might be able to sell a coin for, on a retail basis. And, in the case of particularly liquid, more generic types of coins, such as $20 Liberty and Saints, we work on a smaller margin. We also offer to take certain coins on consignment basis and work on approximately a 10% to 15% margin. A number of other dealers do the same.
Where do the wholesalers get their coins and what do they pay? I assume you are going to tell us that wholesalers have lower overhead and work on a thinner margins than retailers, but it still seems that their sources of inventory might have garnered a higher price by selling directly to a retail dealer, at least in theory. In other words, if I want to sell a coin and a retail dealer will pay 80% of retail to a wholesaler, wouldn't that same dealer offer the same price to me? And wouldn't that be more than the wholesaler would offer since the wholesaler has to make a profit by selling the same coin to a retail dealer at 20% off the retail price?
Or are wholesalers more likely to buy entire collections, including stuff that many retailers would shun? So the collector, widow, orphan, gets a blended price that is fair since he/she is able to get cash for the material that most retailers wont buy which offsets getting a lower price for the goodies.
CG
CG,
You asked:
<< <i>Where do the wholesalers get their coins and what do they pay? >>
Many dealers, whether wholesalers or retailers, acquire their inventory the same way that we do. Others buy primarily out of auctions and/or estate sales. Many of the U.S. gold coins which appear on the market are purchased in Europe by dealers who have long standing connections with banks and dealers over there.
They pay a wide range of prices, I imagine.
<< <i>In other words, if I want to sell a coin and a retail dealer will pay 80% of retail to a wholesaler, wouldn't that same dealer offer the same price to me? >>
In many cases, yes. In the examples I gave in my earlier post, the prices would apply to whomever has the coins for sale. The wholesaler will often offer a similar price to what a retailer will - in other words, wholesalers and retailers often compete against each other for the same coins and are often willing to pay similar prices.
This sometimes precludes certain dealers from being able to do much business with each other. Even if they are both fair and willing to work on very small mark-ups, if they have the same buy prices for given coins, it makes it all-but-impossible, to then mark the coins up and sell them to each other.
<< <i>Or are wholesalers more likely to buy entire collections, including stuff that many retailers would shun? >>
In many cases, yes, but, if there is enough desirable material in the collection, most any dealer will be interested in acquiring it.
Every town has a coin club . Unfortunately, this is not true. Many areas do not have a coin club and one isn't readily available for hundreds of miles. It is evident that your opinions are as valuable on this board as they are to your mother-in-law.
Now go pet a kitty cat and calm down.