Regional Collectors on the board?

murcerfan · August 16, 2003 2:06AM

OK,
thought I'd start something different.
how many of you other posters and/or lurkers collect and covet the many regional issues from the 1950's "golden age"? Now I relaize that the condition that many of these are typically found does not make for great PSA material, but who's to say a PSA 5 Glendale or a PSA 6 Rodeo or Wilson Franks card is not just as sweet to own ? not me.... I love these things with a passion. I have even considered taking on a series of short articles for the SMR which could spotlight some of these sets. I seem to have piled up some "knowledge" about many of them (lore ?? or truth ??), but both the time and lack of interest by other collectors keeps it an undone project. besides, I probably would come up short on "knowing it all".

There is so much talk about the same old regular vanilla Topps and Bowman issues, thought I'd see if any other regional freaks would want to "get your chats on". If so, what'ya got ? what are you into?

Vargha · August 16, 2003 2:29AM

I had a nice 49 Bowman PCL complete set of 36 cards, all PSA encapsulated. Alas, I sold them to John Rumierz. Those things were very cool and very scarce. The set is still listed, complete with scans for every card at David Vargha - 2nd All Time Finest Set.

Here's a scan of one of them:

Griffins · August 16, 2003 3:53AM

I collect regional issues just as avidly as the mainstream ones. Both major league like Red Hearts, Wilsons, Bell Brands, Hires and Morrells, as well as the PCL sets like Smiths, Remars, Signal Oil, and Mothers. The '49 Bowman PCL is the top of the Post WW2 PCL rarity list, and Vargha's is an amazing achievement. Here's my favorites-
'52-'53 Mothers Cookies- Great design, OK player selection with Ott, Connors, and O'Doul. There is also a movie star set.
'54 Red Heart- Easy to find in PSA 7 or higher, great design and player selection
'54 Wilsons- Brutally tough, eclectic player selection, great design. Teddy swats the dogs over the monster!
'49 Bowman PCL- Really tough set, a lot I've seen were hand cut from sheets. David, any more info on these?
'58 Bell Brand Tough set, lousy design but great player selection. Half the set are HOFers, Hodges should be
'60-'62 Bell Brand- Nice design, everyday is a sunny day to play ball
'48 Signal Oil- Great photography with old Kodachrome film. Same colors as '53 Bowman. Stengal, Lombardi, Martin
'59-61 Morrell- More great photography, same company that put out Red Heart Dogfood (would it scare you to buy hotdogs from a Dog Food manufacturer?)
'54 DanDee's- Still looking for a set of these. Great images, a couple of scarce ones, and Mantle.
'52-'55 Redmans- Great sets.

The ugliest-
Hires- this was one of the designs Bowman was contemplating for their '56 set, had they put one out. Should've died there!
Hires Test- at least they didn't make them all like this. The regular issue was actually an improvement, albeit incremental
Remar/Smiths/Sunbeam
Berk Ross
'50 Royal Deserts
Drakes

murcerfan · August 16, 2003 4:06AM

Is it true Les Scarsella dominated the game in a way no statistic could show?

Cool stuff, I always kind of discounted the PCL stuff into the minor league "not worthy" category.
It's interesting to see you surfer boys going after that stuff, heck, there were no west coast teams to be a fan of back in '49. I like those Bowman PCL were there any big dogs in the set?

I have relly nice sets of those '60 and '61 Morrells but always seem to come up short whenever decent '59's come around (actually a seller on e-bay has been trickling out a set, i have been outsniped on each and every one). I find the morrells MUCH nicer than the bell brands, but somewhere along the line i decided owning both was a bad allocation of resources for a yankee fan.

Now Stahl-Meyers...'dem Old School.

Vargha · August 16, 2003 4:31AM

The 49's had about 2/3 that at least had a cup of coffee in the bigs. The set didn't include the best hitter in the PCL in 1948, but strangely enough, it included a 20+ game loser from 1948.

Here is a blurb from my set description:

These cards were actually distributed in regular 1949 Bowman packs. They were sold only in the PCL cities of Seattle, WA and Portland, OR as well as Bowman's Philadelphia, PA headquarters. Strangely enough, they were not sold in the more populated San Francisco Bay Area, home of the 1948 PCL champion Oakland Oaks and second place San Francisco Seals. Nor were they sold in the populous Los Angeles area, even though six Los Angeles Angels players and five Hollywood Stars players are in the set. There are estimated to be only around 2,000 total cards from this set in existence. Many were hand-cut from promotional sheets given to stores in the Portland and Seattle areas.

Griffins · August 16, 2003 5:07AM

<<<Cool stuff, I always kind of discounted the PCL stuff into the minor league "not worthy" category.>>

While the PCL wasn't quite major league, the quality of play was considerably better than a lot of the other minors leagues (not to mention teams like the Browns). A lot of players preferred being closer to home and playing all the time rather than riding the pine in the bigs. From what I've read and heard from some of the old time PCL guys being out here wasn't all that bad. Consequently you had pretty good players, and the teams were fairly stable. There are PCL reunion shows in LA and SF every year, and a lot of the old players are there, happy to sign or chat, all for free. Sure beats watching Willie Mays deface someone's signed bat without even looking up at them.
As for being worthy there are a bunch of Zeenut and Obak collectors that would dispute that. And other than the '49 Bowman set its not overly tough putting together a full run of post war pcl issues.
David, did you ever see Mark Macrae's '49's? He's fairly anti-grading companies, so its tough to compare, but he's been upgrading his set for the last 30 years and its pretty incredible. Did you put yours together card by card, or buy a complete set? There was a nice graded one in a mastro auction a year or so ago that I got sniped on at 2am.

Vargha · August 16, 2003 5:15AM

I bought 1 complete set and a group of 24 different. I got beat out on that SGC slabbed PCL set on Mastro as well.

rustywilly · August 16, 2003 5:35AM

A few months ago I registered the first and currently only 1947 Tip Top Bread collection with PSA:

1947 Tip Top Bread Cards

Yes - I know only five cards but it's a start. I plan on actively pursuing the set soon. I was hoping for a little competition but nobodys willing to challenge me for the set. I would like to meet some other collectors interested in these Tip Top cards which are nearly impossible to find in tip top condition. I don't know much about the cards - any insight would be greatly appreciated (Dave - murcerfan?). Apparently the set carries the only cards of several WWII players. Recently, I added this one to the collection (purchased raw at the National):

It also filled a hole in my HOF portrait collection

-mark

murcerfan · August 16, 2003 2:00PM

Rusty.
I am clueless on those, but i do remember hearing that there were fakes of them floating about.

Antnee,
I never said PCl was not worthy, but that was how i kept myself from starting yet another tangent.
I also know nothing about the league. Face it , the east is where it's at.

interchanges · August 16, 2003 9:23PM

The best regionals were put in packs of hot dogs!

Wilsons, Stahls Meyers, Glendales and Morells(?)
Very good point Anthony (on the Red Hearts and Morrells), which part of the pig do we put in the hot dogs? And which part do we put in the dog food?
Ahhh who cares,it's all the same!

Speaking of Red Hearts, I was told these cards are so plentiful because they gave out cards (sets?) well into the early 1970's.

Can anyone confirm this?

Griffins · August 16, 2003 11:56PM

Red Heart was sending out the Blue or Green series thru the early 70's if you wrote and asked them. When I was going to shows in '74-'76 there were plenty of pristine ones for .50 for commons. I rarely saw the red backgrounds back then.

PSAtan · August 17, 2003 1:38AM

The longer I collect, the more I come to appreciate the regional issues of the 1950's. I have many Topps and Bowman early cards, but I'm much more excited when I come across a Dan Dee Mantle or Stahl Meyer Mays. These cards are true rarities in any condition. Check the population reports. There's 15 or so 1954 Journal American Willie Mays graded cards versus a few hundred 1954 Topps. I have a few cards like a GAI 3 Dan Dee Mantle, a GAI 8 Hires Mays w/out tab (highest graded for both PSA and GAI), 1952 Berk Ross Mays and Ted Williams, 1958 S.F. Call Bulletin Mays, 1951 Berk Ross Whitey Ford and Yogi Berra, a 1949 Vis-Ed Feller (One graded by PSA and no others), some Red Hearts (Not as rare, but still beautiful designs) and a 1921 Exhibit Babe Ruth. I'd like to add both the 1959 Bazooka Mantle and Mays cards, a Stahl Meyer Mays and Mantle and a Hires Test Set Mays. If anyone has these cards, let me know.

I was surprised to see Marshall Fogel's Highest Rated Mays Master Set, doesn't include the Hires, Berk Ross, S.F. Bulletin and NY Journal American. His collection is strictly Topps, Bowman and Fleer. Too bad because the regional issues are the cards that are the most challenging. A 1952 Topps Mays is easy if you have money, but try locating a Stahl Meyer Mays. That's what the hobby is all about.

Be well,

Satan

marty · August 17, 2003 2:39AM

Here is one of only two cards from the Glendale set to ever be graded PSA 7. It is a set of commons, but a nice looking set.

I have kept all of the Chemstrand Patch except one that I have bought. I have two complete sets, including one set that is still in the original celophane.

I have decided to build a 1934 Gold Medal Flour set.

murcerfan · August 17, 2003 2:56AM

satan...you likey??

my reasons for grading these cards is unclear and quite likely unsound.
nonetheless, a favorite in my collection.

edited: my browser is busted and i was trying to post a pic of my mays stahl-meyer for your viewing pleasure...i just posted pics of my S-M sets on the SGC registry, so if you're bored..take a peak in a few days.

PSAtan · August 17, 2003 11:00AM

Murcerfan, you are currently #1 on my Bulletin Board Vintage Collector Registry. I think you are awesome. Now, where do you live? Where do you keep a spare key? And, when do you take your major vacations?

Regards from the real down under,

Satan

murcerfan · August 17, 2003 12:00PM

That's funny......vacation...what's that.
besides, I got everything a guy could ask for right here on my mountain hideaway.

Come visit my collection anytime, I'll take you down into the Murcercave and give you a tour

There are however, certain liability issues that involve the use or possible use of illegal weapons, fire-arms, drugs, alcohol, and alien life-forms). You're gonna love it though, so don't forget to bring your camera and a change of underwear.

But really, there is no way my Stahl-Meyers should make you cross over to the dark side. I know 4 guys that are holding out on the real deal. If you knew what I paid for the Mays you'd feel sorry for me.
Now,don't forget.... there is a Mantle PSA 8 ('53 I believe) ..... Joe Orlando once told me that one was graded while he was on vacation, and never got to see it ..also I spoke to the guy that has the Snider PSA 8 (also '53??), no way does this guy ever sell it.
Now I do have a Whitey Lockman in PSA 8, but legend has it that a Milprint (the company that printed many of the classic regionals) employee's kid asked for cards one morning and on that day Mr. Lockman was being printed, dad not knowing it was a singular dealio, grabbed his son a stack of some 25-30 Whitey (red hots) Lockman.....If only the Mick had been up that day !

The one I think is the very coolest card ever is the '55 Dusty Rhodes (the only year he appeared), showing the Polo Grounds Outfield in the background with the classic billboards and even has a faint image of Willie Mays during batting practice. I won a PSA 6 about 6 months ago for a ton of$$, but it might be a great buy in the end. It sure is a beautiful card and it really is a shame that a few more of these cards did not survive in uncirculated condition.

I'll bet Mr. Mint has some,....... but alas , he refuses to send me an auction catalog...
I keep getting this pantload from "his people" about having to buy an SCD subscription.
I just laugh and say GO CLOWN GO

PSAtan · August 17, 2003 2:08PM

Great story on the Lockman. This is the kind of stuff that makes the hobby interesting. Grading and building sets from 1983 isn't the heart of real collecting. I don't care what you paid for the Mays. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity. That card, IMHO, has to be one of the greatest cards ever. Anybody with money can put together a decent collection, but taste is something you have or don't. I've never even seen a picture of the Dusty Rhodes' card. I'm not a big believer in the afterlife so I applaud people that "go for it" with reckless abandon. I do. Of course, I'm hated by everyone I know because I don't follow the crowd, but when I'm gone there will be a couple of great stories about me. You're not remembered for penny-pinching. Now, about the drugs...

Be well,

Satan

curmudgeon · August 18, 2003 1:19AM

Great thread!

PSAtan-- I have an SGC 80 Mays Hires test that I'm not really interested in selling, but would at least listen to an offer.

interchanges is right-- the best cards came with hot dogs, Althought its from '61, I love the Peter's Meats Twins.
Peters Kaat

zardoz51 · August 18, 2003 1:44AM

As much as I hate to admit it within earshot of murcerfan, I really like the regional issues, and regard them on par with the regular "bubblegum" cards of their respective eras. The only difference being their distribution and product with which they were delivered.

The PCL has a fabulous history and I feel that the OBAK's represent an important part of early baseball heritage. Just check the playing records of some of those guys......just outstanding.

Let's face it, the stuff is horribly scarce/rare, represents an important part of this hobby, and anyone who turns their nose up at these cards because they are not considered "mainstream" sets, are losing out on an important facet of the hobby. Frankly, they're morons, and no better than the fair weather collectors who only pursue that which is fashionable at any given moment.

Just don't tell murcerfan I said this.

1954 · August 18, 2003 1:46AM

I love the Regional/Test issue sets, however I really don't know much about those sets I don't collect. Could tell you quiet a bit on those that I do collect such as Wilson Weiners, 64 Stand ups, 71 Topps Greatest Moments and 54 Dan Dee. The Dan Dee set is pretty hard to find, but not that much interest in them over the past 5 years. They really are a slow seller and when in an auction they always sell under SMR. Great value as the set is undervalued and underappreciated.

1954

Griffins · August 18, 2003 1:59AM

<<Just check the playing records of some of those guys......just outstanding.>>>>
As usual, Chicken Boo is spot on. At the last PCL reunion show in LA there was a couple with a display of their grandfathers career. Turns out between 800 hits in the bigs and the hits he had in the PCL he was about 1000 hits up on Ty and Pete. Simply amazing that it had gone under the radar for so long. Kinda like Crash Davis in Bull Durham, with the homerun record no one noticed.
Shane- are Standups really a test issue? I thought they were regular mainstream like the '64 Giants or '55 Doubleheaders. I never really gave them much thought until I saw PC's set, it was amazing. The set seems to go for amazing prices as well. As far as the Dan Dee's, I'll take any you're selling.

murcerfan · August 18, 2003 2:14AM

I'm afraid If I start PCL collecting, I'll end up a surfer dude.

I fixed my browser (damn MS service packs!).

Hey, At least it's centered

Griffins · August 18, 2003 2:23AM

Dave-
Are the corners supposed to be like that, or were those clipped? As for being a surfer dude, you should be so lucky!

murcerfan · August 18, 2003 2:24AM

Another favorite of mine
(I believe this is the All Hail Zardoz variation)

theBobs · August 18, 2003 2:37AM

<< <i>The PCL has a fabulous history and I feel that the OBAK's represent an important part of early baseball heritage >>

zardoz51 · August 18, 2003 2:41AM

I like this variation!

murcerfan · August 18, 2003 2:56AM

OK smiley.....say cheese!

1954 · August 18, 2003 3:04AM

Griffins-
I sold off my set this past year. Some went to Missinglinks, the rest to two big collectors to finish off their sets. I have only one card left and it is a Bauer PSA 8. Let me know if that one will help.

1954
Email: Shaneleo@aol.com

LuxuryWines · August 18, 2003 3:17AM

Cool Thread... I love a lot of these older regional or obscure national issues that time has seemed to forgotten about except to a few hardy collectors.... I have long admired the 54 Red Heart set and think it is a very nice looking non-budget breaking set and some day I will try to build it... Since it is picture posting time I will shoe you a few my favorites:

1914 Polo Grounds Game

1929 Kashin

And 1964 Topps Stand-ups (NO they were not a test issue but IMHO probably the greatest looking Topps card EVER)!

theBobs · August 18, 2003 3:43AM

murcerfan · August 18, 2003 4:25AM

I always liked that Ted Willaims Red Man, despite my prejudice against cards with text/bio/stats on the front and all things Red Sox.
Keep posting those regional card pics.
I'll go dig out some from the vault on my next visit, maybe even one in a psa slab.

PSAtan · August 19, 2003 3:53AM

Murcerfan,

That Mays is one sweet card. i don't care about the grade. That's not a card you stumble upon everyday. It just clicks when you catch it with your eyes. I think I saw that card on ebay go for like 600 bucks. There was a Stahl Meyer Mantle that went at the same time. Perchance, that sits in your collection too.

I'll send you a private email with my offer. Hey. I have to give it the old college shot since it took me eight and a half years to graduate.

Thanks for posting it. It has made my day.

Sweetly,

Satan (If it's possible for Satan to do anything sweetly)

PSAtan · August 19, 2003 4:12AM

Apparently, you do not accept private emails so I ask you to privately email me any wants you might have and a raw dollar number for the purchase. I know this is part of a set so I feel a bit guilty pursuing the card, but, as my dad taught me, you never know who has a 3500 dollar a day heroin habit.

Whatever you decide, I still think you're the coolest one on this damn thing.

Best,

Satan

murcerfan · August 19, 2003 5:41AM

Oh man I'm sorry, unlike most of the posts around here I'm not spamming my cards for sale, simply sharing and chatting. I agree that the Mays is a great card, so is the Mantle which usually sells for a bit more, but the Mays is one of the real tough ones. I bought mine in a direct sale from a big dealer who picked up a really comprehensive regional collection. I always liked the Newcombe card too.

mrc32 · August 19, 2003 5:48AM

This thread is super fun to look at!!! Keep it up!

dbj77 · August 19, 2003 6:00AM

I too love the regional or rare national sets. Like TheBobs and Aconte, I'm a huge Red Man tobacco collector. I also love Basketball too, so I'd thought I'd post some pics of one of my favorite obscure sets, the 1972 Icee Bear NBA set. This set is overlooked by most basketball card collectors, even though it shouldn't. It's got some awesome players in it like Chamberlain, Maravich, Robertson, Kareem, Havlicek, West and Frazier and is a "tall boy" issue that many like better than the regular size cards. It's small set size makes it an affordable set to complete.

The pic comes from the J. Freeley collection on the Set Registry. I hope he doesn't mind.

PSAtan · August 19, 2003 6:20AM

I don't blame you. I wouldn't sell it either...unless of course you were selling it to me because I'm really nice to people, I cover my mouth when I cough and I'm a member at Augusta National. I dig the Mays because,you'll correct me if I'm wrong, the Mantle is the same picture as on the Dan Dee card. Not that I wouldn't accept one as a gift from the families of the seventeen people I rescued at sea during my time in the Coast Guard. I just hope you realize how fortunate you are. Most people are divorced with serious drinking problems while you own one of Satan's top ten cards of all time. Enjoy it. You seem like a good guy that deserves it. I'll just have to wait for another great find by none other than Mr. Mint. I'm sure he's on a perilous mission salvaging a bunch of mint Stahl Meyer cards from a German Submarine in his one man bathysphere.

Speak to you soon,

Satan

Other twenty top ten cards:

1) Wilson Franks Ted Williams
2) 1952 Topps Mantle
3) 1938 Goudey Heads-Up higher number cartoon Dimaggio
4) 1953 Bowman Pee Wee Reese
5) 1934 Goudey #37 Lou Gehrig (He looks like Alec Baldwin when Alec was skinny)
6) 1954 Dan Dee Mantle
7) The Stahl Meyer Mays
8) 1968 Topps 3-D Clemente
9) The 1948 Leaf Set
10) 1934 Diamond Stars Hank Greenberg spelled "Greenburg"
11) The Batter-Up Dimaggio
12) Any year of Rusty Kuntz
13) 1952 Berk Ross Musial
14) 1958 Hires Test Set Mays
15) 1948 Leaf Boxing Cards
16) 1932 US Caramel Ruth
17) 1933 Sport Kings Ty Cobb
18) 1954 Johnston Hank Aaron
19) 1941 Play Ball Ted Williams
20) 1966 Topps League Leaders w/Mays, Clemente and Aaron

That's my top ten.

murcerfan · August 19, 2003 6:51AM

I've always been a fan of icy beers...no doubt about that one.
I like to wash down my Scott's Potato chips with one or two.
Those rascals (1950 Scott's that is) are perhaps my favorite basketball cards, unfortunatly, many years of hunting and nothing to show.

theBobs · August 19, 2003 10:01PM

1420sports · August 19, 2003 11:18PM

Any Kahn's Rose cards out there for us to view?

dstudeba · August 20, 2003 1:02AM

My personal favorite that I don't have in my collection is the 1953 Stahl Meyers Campanella (that is my vote for mercerfan's next picture). One recently came up on eBay, but I had dumped all my money (and then some) into some Wilson Franks so I had to let it go.

My personal favorite that is in my collection is the 1954 Wilson Franks Campanella. (my eBay auction with the Campy that I recently upgraded from) The Ted Williams from the set (which Satan mentioned) is a close second but sentimental reasons point towards the Campanella.

----------------------

Regional cards are stupid. Collect Topps and send me your Wilson Franks!

dbj77 · August 20, 2003 1:04AM

LOL Neal, how about the one you just bought!!!!

theBobs · August 20, 2003 1:53AM

I guess I agree with PSAtan, the best baseball card ever...

murcerfan · August 20, 2003 2:12AM

perhaps the most undergraded card SGC ever slabbed.

PSAtan · August 20, 2003 7:46AM

Curmudgeon,

I'm ripe to be ripped off. I really want your 1958 Hires Test Series card. I've been a good boy this year. Ask Santa (Shift the letters and it spells "Satan". Odd coincidence, huh?). Please allow me to make a fool of myself with a ridiculous trade or hefty cash amount. I haven't heard back from you because you're playing hardball. You don't have to. You own me. Puiblicly humiliate me. I'm into that. Send ridiculous wants or a nutty dollar value. We can work something out.

Do Satan a favor and Satan won't forget.

Satan (Santa signing if he was dyslexic)

curmudgeon · August 20, 2003 10:00AM

Get thee behind me Satan!!

I just looked at that Mays last night, and will try to post tomorrow- although I'm scanposting challenged, and may have to e-mail it to someone for further handling.

You're right, I am playing hardball-- that card is just too damn hard to find, so if I sell it, I can count on missing it for a long time. Plus, you know that when you make a deal with the devil-- you get burned.

Keep up the good fight, there's a chance you'll get me when my meds have worn off, at which point anything can happen.

PSAtan · August 20, 2003 10:28AM

I've been known to be persuasive at times so I guess I'm going to have to break out the old charm:

1 million pesos for your card. Okay. I didn't think that would fool you. How about a watch? You need a watch? I have more watches than cards. Every well-dressed man should have one.

or

You like golf clubs? I have golf clubs. Neat sets of vintage Titleist like Tiger used to play before Nike sucked him in. I have new ones too. Drivers, putters, you name it. Be nice to fill your bag with a new set before winter sets in.

or

US Curency. Have some of that. Actually have more in watches, golf clubs and baseball cards. But, this is an option.

or

You like the ladies? Hardbodies? Waifish thin? Tall with those collagen lips? I like them too. But this isn't really pertinent.

or

I don't know. Just sell me the card. I'm on meds too. Us lunatics gotta stick together. I'm a television writer. I'll write a sit-com about your family. How many people can boast that? You tell me about your life and I'll write a sit-com making you the lead character.

or

I'll postpone football season because I'm Satan. I don't think any of us want that.

Send me a want list, too. Maybe I have something you're dying for, but know I can't make you a headmaster at a posh prep school with teen models. There's only so many slots and so many deals out there.

Really admire you as a man and person,

Satan

murcerfan · August 20, 2003 12:47PM

PSAtan · August 20, 2003 8:00PM

Murcerfan,

Sung To The Tune of "I Write The Songs"

You got the cards that make you the cardboard king,
You've got the cards which no one else can bring,
You've got the cards,
You're are god and you've got the cards!

Satan (Taken from fellow hellmate - Barry Manilow)

murcerfan · August 21, 2003 12:35AM

The Postman brings me much happy today!

edited- last image file
and to say "coolidge is cool" daddio

rbeaton · August 21, 2003 12:54AM

<< <i>perhaps the most undergraded card SGC ever slabbed. >>

What are you complaining about, that card got a 10! Were you hoping for an 11??

Robert

Regional Collectors on the board?

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