How do you take cleaning into account for grading

numonebuyer

I am sure this has happened to most of us. We have a coin and send it off for grading at PCGS and they body bag it. They say it was cleaned. So, what grade do we give it? If we thought it was uncirculated, is it now no better than AU-58?

I am referring to a coin that did not look cleaned to me, but for sake of this thread I now agree with PCGS in that it has been dipped one too many times and is not wizzed or anything like that.

Obviously I have a particular coin in mind, but want the responses to this thread to be more general in nature and refer to an uncirculated coin that was body bagged by PCGS.

Numonebuyer

cherrypickincoin

You could net grade it by saying Uncirculated Details, Net AU50 like ANACS would do, depending on the severity of the cleaning or you could simply say Uncirculated w/slight trace of cleaning.

numonebuyer

<< <i>Net AU50 like ANACS would do >>



So, based on this, the grade for pricing would be the AU-50 grade?

Numonebuyer

ccrdragon

The price depends on the method of cleaning. If the coin has been whizzed or buffed and has marks from the cleaning, I would price it much lower than the 'net' grade.

airplanenut

Probably lower than the net grade- would you rather have a nice AU50, or an off-colored unc?

cherrypickincoin

Well, this is controversial but all you really need to say is your opinion of the grade, whether it be MS64, MS63 or simply Uncirculated and then say "May have been overdipped" or something to that effect. Overdipping a coin will impair the luster and as such should no longer be a "mint state" coin and would be appropriately net graded to an AU piece. No, people probably won't pay mint state prices for a cleaned coin.

PCGS always allows a little leeway for dipping. They will not automatically bag it because of a few subtle traces, it has to be something a little more substantial to keep it from holdering, though they are notorious for being the most conservative.

numonebuyer

This is the one.

Numonebuyer

numonebuyer

PCGS certainly did not allow any leeway on this one.

Numonebuyer

Iwog

When PCGS body bags a coin for cleaning, it almost always reflects numerous hairlines on the surface caused by some twit using an abrasive like toothpaste or baking soda or simply rubbing it with a towel. In the picture in question, you can see a bunch of hairlines on the cheek so I'm guessing this is why the coin was returned.

Dipping is almost never the cause of a coin being body bagged although a seriously overdipped coin might get returned for altered surfaces. PCGS doesn't consider dipping a coin as a reason for a no grade.

greghansen

I agree with Brian. I start with the presumption that every raw coin I look at has been cleaned or impaired in some fashion. Then I look at it to see if I can convince myself I am wrong. I'd give the coin the grade you think it deserves and if it helps you sleep better, you can add something like Brian suggested, 'possible old cleaning' or something to that effect.

northcoin

BU Isn't that the grade that all the major advertisers in the coin publications give to their non slabbed raw coins that were likely cleaned?

jdimmick

To me the grade of the coin simply is what it is. If its AU-50 and and has been cleaned, then its an AU-50 cleaned.

I hate net graded coins with an assigned lower grade, since I dont keep anything other than PCGS, I dont worry about it. If it dont slab by PCGS, then it does not reside in my collection period.

darktone

A cleaned MS in my opinion is only worth MS60 at best but I value them closer to AU money. To me a dipped coined is just as bad as hairlines if you can tell it was dipped. The new NCS over bright look is not acceptable to me either and is in the same class as any over dipped coin to me- these are pretty easy to spot in the new B&M catalog. Whizzed MS coins I put more in the value of an XF coin. I am not saying cleaned coins are not okay to collect but to me they are worth far less but can still be nice looking. Numonebuyer- can you get some bigger picture's or close ups of the area's in question? Are you using a digital camera? mike

09sVDB

Depending on how bad it is, I will usually net grade it and then take the retail value and cut it in half. A good example is today while I was at a show, I sold a whizzed AU50 1928 Peace Dollar for $130.00 which I bought raw in about 1988 for $130.00. I was happy to be out of the coin and to get my $$ back even though the same coin is worth alot more today and the $130 spent in 1988 is worth less today.

Iwog

09, I'm sure you identified the coin as whizzed when you sold it right?

If dipping is as bad as abrasive cleaning then how come hairlines can be identified 100% of the time while dipped coins can almost never be identified? Don't kid yourself, most dipped coins are not the "overbright" circulated coins that are easy to spot, but blast white uncirculated coins that have either retoned or left white. PCGS has correctly determined that dipping doesn't change the look of otherwise bright uncirculated coins and therefore doesn't identify them as cleaned. (even if they could)

numonebuyer

Here is a larger picture per request.



Numonebuyer

P.S. Some very interesting responses thus far.

michael

it depends
if the cleaning is currently market acceptable then a net grade


again it all depends on what the coin looks like to me sight seen in person

sincerely michael

dorkkarl

your totally off-base, that's not how you grade coins!

1st, decide how much this coin is worth TO YOU. then, look for the corresponding grade in your favorite price guide, see what grade column that value falls under, voila, you have just graded the coin.

if you think the coin is worth $100, & $100 is the value under the VF column, then YOU grade the coin VF.

K S

darktone

<< <i>If dipping is as bad as abrasive cleaning then how come hairlines can be identified 100% of the time while dipped coins can almost never be identified? >>

If I can identify a coin as dipped it's over dipped to me. mike

nwcs

I usually note what I think the grade is, note the problems, and let the buyer determine their own net grade.

my3cents

send it to ANACS - they'll net grade it for you

numonebuyer

I have never submitted to ANACS. How does ANACS word a "Net Grade"?

Numonebuyer

numonebuyer

More responses need to the General question...

Numonebuyer

haletj

Kind of on the subject, how about a coin that has some long parallel (microscopic) hairlines from a wiping? The coin I speak of is in a Segs "ms64 wiped obverse" holder but the coin looks %100 like an ms65 or higher to the naked eye. Do you think Segs put ms64 as a Net Grade? Would ANACS put a similar net grade on it? I've seen coins in pcgs holders with a few hairlines exactly like this one, only a few and not many.