Grade test: Grade this capped bust half dollar

oreville

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Louis

I'll go out on a limb...MS62

ER

Uncirculated details. Scratched. Net AU58.

itsnotjustme

I'll go AU55 due to the light wear on the raised curls, eagle's head and wings, and the scratch on the shield. I just had PCGS boddybag a Buffalo for a much less severe scratch.

mojorizn

Wear on high points of hair curls, wear on RH star points, wear on eagle's brow and top wing feathers=AU55 IMHO.

darktone

I could see as low as AU50 being net graded or as high as AU58 if you don't count the scratch and what looks like enviromemtal damage. mike

originalisbest

'taint wear to my eyes - from the photo. I'll hazard MS-61-62. (Watch it turn out a 63.) It doesn't help that these are not that easy to grade in person, let alone from a photo...

keets

AU55.

al h.

Baley

beautiful coin, one of my favorite years, I don't mind the marks too much.... looks MS60 to me.

originalisbest

Plus, are those really scratches? They certainly seem to go under the struck vertical lines of the shield - a strike through of some sort?

newsman

AU58

Loki

I'll say MS63. Nice coin!!

oreville

PCGS graded it AU-53.

Loki

OMG! No way that's AU53.

Placid

If those are scratches seems like pcgs decided to net grade it rather than giving it a bb.
Hard to tell sometimes what is wear and what is strike on those without being a expert in the series.

Draco

Geez. . the graders were kind. . . .I would have guessed XF40.

keets

it seems there should be no question that those are scratches. the only alternative would be an as yet unidentified die variety with multiple die cracks, but they are indeed scratches. the coin might appear to be mint state, but it has those scratches and quite a bit of apparent friction/rub/wear, whatever you choose to call it. perhaps it has never seen actual circulation, in which case it is a sad victim of a collector(s) who should be beaten with a fungo bat!! i sure hope none of them are staple scratches cause those make me just wanna scream!!



al h.

carterhaines

I completely agree with them! I think that the coin is worn, and not weakly struck. I come to that conclusion as the high (worn) points are much lighter in color. If the coin was weakly struck, the toning/tarnish would have also affected those spots. On the other hand, if the coin were struck, toned/tarnished, and then worn, the high points would be more silvery in color and this is what I think this coin is. IMO

originalisbest

Rather, the way to look at these is in view of the fact that they were shuffled from bank to bank. Surface friction does not automatically equal a circulated grade, particularly with bust halves. To find a bust half with truly no surface friction at all would be a rare animal. As such, you can't really determine the extent of surface wear/friction, but no wear without being able to see the coin in hand.

Other than this, sounds like PCGS absolutely murdered this one.

keets

considering the overall appearance of that coin, i'd have to say that the contention it did much inter-bank shuffling is a stretch. a more likely scenario is that shortly after it was minted and entered circulation, if it did at all, it was saved and the wear/rub/frinction and scratches were from poor handling after that fact.

i've seen some of those rare animals you spoke of and they were lovely. given the scan provided i think they got this one close enough to be called fair. i consider accurate pictures posted online to be a very good aid in assessing friction because of the way the subtle light reflections show. all of them seen here are wear, on the hair, stars, clasp and nose on the obverse, the eagles head, both wings, talons, the olive branch, arrows and even lightly on the rim lettering. really, how forgiving would you expect PCGS or any service to be??

don't get me wrong, the coin is sweet, it just isn't mint state by any stretch.

al h.

Baley

I still think it's an attractive coin despite it's flaws, and pretty well struck too, and even if not technically mint state anymore, it's really really nice and a lot of coin for an AU53, I'd pay 55 or 57 dough for that!

dorkkarl

au-55 imo, well-struck for 1812, does it have any die clashes? if not, may be true prime die-state, which would possibly give it a considerable premium. color is not all that great though, & can't judge the luster

K S

wallstreetman

Cant say I know this series, but at first glance, Id say they were real tough on this coin! Are these easy to find without scratches, the grade seems to say so?

tjkillian

Are we sure those lines on the picture are scratches on the coin and not on the holder? As I understand it, PCGS looks at surface preservation a lot to determine whether a coin is uncirculated or not. Clearly there is "wear" on the high parts and whether that came from cabinet friction, circulation, or stacking is what is being debated. If the coin has very few handling marks, I would call the "wear" cabinet friction and still grade it MS. If, on the otherhand, there are numerous marks in the fields that are not being shown in the picture, then I would say AU-58. It is an open collar strike, but still a very nice example. AU-53 seems way too harsh, assuming those are not scratches on the coin. If they are, then the coin is correctly net graded as an AU-53.

Tom

Higashiyama

The scratches on both obverse and reverse look like they are old scratches and on the coin from the way they are toned. Therefore, the grade seems plausible.

However, it is an interesting example, as it is clearly a beautiful coin. If it could be acquired for anything like AU53 money it would be a steal. It must be prettier than many many higher grade specimens.

Great post.

jamesfsm

I tend to agree that the wear is cabinet friction but the scratches make it AU. Adding to that, we have no idea what the luster is like. I think this coin was on eBay a few weeks ago opening at $515 with no bids. Got relisted with a $1 opening bid and sold for around $560.

wallstreetman

Well, Is James correct?

ANACONDA

AU58

BillJones

AU-53.

There is rub on the high points and scratch at 11:00 o'clock.

It's a nice looking coin that would be a good addition to any collection.

Check out the notch on the outer-most arm of the 13th star. That John Reich's signature that he put on every Bust half die that he created.

Outhaul

AU-58

Draco

What grade do you think PCGS gave to this one? Edited to say (in response to the post by Keets): It wasn't BB'd and the coin has quite a bit of luster. It may have been cleaned in the very distant past, but not recently. For whatever reason, the toning on this coin comes out flat to the camera and makes it appear to have been cleaned.

keets

perhaps AU55 as well, though it shows very obvious signs of being cleaned so they may have body-bagged it for that reason. another nice looking coin. i look at these bust half-dollars much the same as todays quarters, the workhorse of their era. whenever they show up with detail like the two in this thread thus far, they are treasures. it's just a matter of what dollar amount is needed to grab em up.

al h.

oreville

Yes I bought the 1812 half dollar and paid a very strong almost absurd price. I just fell in love with it and could not believe I did not see it for sale the first time!!!!!

This is an prime example of what I believe to be "the quality of the coin will be remembered long after the price is forgotten."

Now easy, easy, my wife might be watching this thread!!!

Ebay lot on 1812 half

kamehameha00

Obverse:AU-58
Revers:MS-61

Loki

Ohh you lucky dog! I had that one on my watch list but had forgotten about it. If I had the "Russniper" program, it would have gone to me!

wallstreetman

Loki, hit em with the HAMMER!

ANACONDA2

au-55

wallstreetman

Although, you had plenty of time to outbid him! Next time try emailing the seller with an offer, this would have been the perfect candidate since it didnt sell the first time. Makes me wonder what I could have gotten it for!

Loki

<< <i>Loki, hit em with the HAMMER! >>

Thanks wallstreetman. I will definitely sign up for that. Watch out Oreville ... When you least expect it, LOKI'S HAMMER will come down on you!

wallstreetman

Draco, I say AU58! Im starting to understand what people are saying about this grade given in place of MS62! I just got one on a 1948 Canadian Dollar!

Baley

oreville, nice coin! looks like you paid roughly AU59 money for it and I like it a lot, as I mentioned, the date is a
<---- favorite of mine
both for its historical significance and for the era at the mint, before the fire of 1816, things were going pretty well, and they were cranking out (literally, on a screw press) some pretty nice looking coins.

BillJones' reminder to Check out the notch on the outer-most arm of the 13th star. That John Reich's signature that he put on every Bust half die that he created. had me get out some 1812 halves in various grades for a closer look and found 2 with the JR notch and one without, also noticed various die and strike differences, die states (drawn stars, etc), various edge lettering variances, two pretty much aligned and one with significant rotation, and differing amounts of wear,plus a couple of scratches on an otherwise very nice half dollar and other little personalizing qualities that make each of these coins unique, even though they have the same date.







how do you grade these coins, and does anyone have any more pics of their 1810-1815 half dollars?

Elcontador

I got a Reeded Edge half for my type set and passed on one of these because of striking issues. You're in no-man's land in the MS 58-63 range on these coins. Also, you'll see quite a few MS 65s
that are not fully struck.

I wouldn't even venture a guess on a Capped Bust half unless I could see it in person. That way, you'd get a better idea if what may appear to be wear is actually a luster break or not. Lighting on an image is just too much of a variable on this series. The above being said, they are very well
struck for AU coins of this series.

tjkillian

Here's a picture of my 1810 half dollar that PCGS says is a XF-45, which I agree with.

Tom

Draco

AU55 is what I thought my prior posted coin would grade. I had prayed for 58, but thought the obervse hits and scratches would hurt it and would have accepted 53. PCGS gave my coin a dismal XF45 grade. . . and yes, I was HOT HOT HOT about it. I overpaid for this coin. . .$400 (yea, yea, yea. . .a fool and his money. . . .).

On the obverse of most bust halves, wear can be spoted on the hair just behind her ear and in other high points in her hair to the bottom of the coin. Bust half reverse is easier looking at the eagle's "eyebrow," the top of it's right wing and the claws. . especially the left claw. Spotting wear on bust halves can be a bit difficult on pieces like the one posted by oreville, but the points I mentioned above are good places to start looking. I noticed that there a few of you that believe bank stacking/shuffling wear is acceptable and not wear. To me, wear is wear and it doesn't matter if the coin never saw the pocket of a consumer or not. . .it's still detectable wear and can't grade higher than 59. (and yes, I realize that it's very hard to tell the difference between weak strike and wear on some coins).

On mine, the lack of detail in the center of the right wing is a weak strike, dirt in the die or whatever. .not wear (similar to what you see on the obverse star lack of detail - very common in this series).

Just my two cents worth so be gentle on me. . .I'm still licking the wounds my 1827 gave me.

Baley

Draco, despite a Ch EF holder, your '27 is probably worth Au50 or 53 money based on eye appeal. OK, maybe not the AU59 price you paid, but live and learn! this thread makes me want to go shopping for some of these eye appealing PCGS 45, 50, and 53 coins! worth more out of their holders?

oreville

Draco: In another year or two, those will not be wounds you are licking but lots of warm feelings for your coin.

These coins are not easy to find.

I am truly a novice in collecting bust halves yet I am quite experienced in collecting bust dimes (both draped and capped) from well circulated to mint state 67 levels. I do find it reassuring that much of what I have learned about grading bust dimes is at least 50% transferrable to grading the other bust denominations.

This was my very first bust half purchase (other than some holed bust halves) I have ever made in my coin collecting life of 43 years. So a circulated one was most appropriate.

But boy, are bust halves expensive compared to bust dimes!!!!!!!!!!

coinkat

Oreville:

Great looking coin...in light of the fact that the grade was posted as AU53, it doesn't make much sense to be the Monday morning grader here. I like the pictures...very impressive and nicely posted!

The other bust halfs look nice too. I would consider AU50 on the 1810 because of the even strike which is nice for the date...perhaps the lustre may have kept it out of a 50 holder.

Baley...the three you posted are alittle tough for me...perhaps the scan is making it more difficult than it really is. The last one looks to be in the VF25 range and the first one looks better than the second. The degree of lustre on the first one combined with trying to determine whether it is original from the scan is tough. The coin looks to have lustre that may have brought out through a prior dip years ago, but I would rather see the coin before making that determination. Mid to HIGH EF range on the first and probably VF35 or perhaps on a good day EF40 ON THE SECOND. The second doesn't look original...but it could be the scan.

oreville

Ankur:

This thread may be of help.