Let's talk about certifying the graders......

ANACONDA · May 14, 2003 9:00PM

Who should set of the protocol?......

Who should not?....

How should they be tested?.....

How should cheating be prevented?

Should counterfeit detection be part of the certification process?

Should NGC and PCGS form a joint task force and make recommendations to the PNG or ANACS for their evaluation or implementation?

Should PCGS and NGC be involved in any aspect or is their desire to have their current graders not flunk the certification process so potentially
influential that they should not be encouraged to participate?

Should their be levels of competence in certification.....

Should their be specific certifications (Competent in Morgans, Competent in SLQs...) or you either are or are not competent.......

Who's gonna pay for this?

Should their be a book of the certified graders.....

Should this thread be broken into 10 smaller threads?..........

adrian

(Sorry if this topic has already been bandied about...i have not seen it if that is the case...)

DHeath · May 14, 2003 9:40PM

Who should set of the protocol?......

Adrian, thanks for including that question.

I think the folks in the grading room at both services are quite good at what they do, and most have more experience than would be possible for most collectors to amass. I also think team grading produces the result we see on the holder, so perhaps the certification you suggest would only be meaningful if you certified the result of the holdered product. Since some of the most experienced generalists are probably already doing the grading, the certifier would have to have more credibility than the grading teams. I'm drawing a blank. Perhaps a panel of top-ranked specialists. Would the results be meaningful? Would we learn that the graders at company A were marginally better than the graders at company B with Bust coinage, and B better than A in Franklins?

Do you believe the grading companies attempt to satisfy the ultra-specialists, or to serve the broader market. Are the grading service's opinions of relative quality accurate enough for the general collector population? As an ultra-specialists, wouldn't you see different things in your series than a generalist would normally see? Do the ultra-specialists care as much what the generalists put on the holder?

Sorry in advance for all the questions, but it is an interesting discussion. I suppose my question could be reduced to this thought; both major grading services are far better at what they do than the general collector population IMO, and isn't that their audience? Do they really care to satisfy the small population of specialists, or do they intend to service the remaining 98% of the collector/dealer population? I would think they would be more interested in market share. While perfection would be ideal, is it relevant to their business model? I think the grade spread is probably some fraction of one point between the services and between the submitter/collector (they must satisfy both). That is a pretty small spread. There is a mechanism in place to remove the glaring mistakes. That is a far better circumstance than exists in the raw population. It does however make the way we assign incredible premiums for a single grade point a high risk gamble. That's where the specialists get paid for their education. JMO

Edited to add - As much as we like to think of these firms as public utilities, they are not.

pmh1nic · May 14, 2003 9:43PM

Who should set of the protocol? PCGS forum members ....ANA or PNG

Who should not? The grading services should have some input but I think the final say on standards should be the ANA.

How should they be tested? Written test on matters related to coin history, production, technical specifications for the coins they will be grading and a thorough practical test using a comprehesive grading set covering all U.S. coins (or others if the service will be grading them).

How should cheating be prevented? Supervised testing by the ANA or PNG. Is this a guarantee that no cheating will occur? No.

Should counterfeit detection be part of the certification process? Absolutely

Should NGC and PCGS form a joint task force and make recommendations to the PNG or ANACS for their evaluation or implementation? Yes

Should PCGS and NGC be involved in any aspect or is their desire to have their current graders not flunk the certification process so potentially influential that they should not be encouraged to participate? PCGS and NGC should have some influence and input but subject to the final authority of the oversight group (ANA or PCGS)

Should their be levels of competence in certification..... No. Set a high standard and make the test a pass/fail situation.

Should their be specific certifications (Competent in Morgans, Competent in SLQs...) or you either are or are not competent....... That might be a good idea since it's probably very difficult for one person to gain a high level of expertise in every U.S. coin series.

Who's gonna pay for this? Grading/certification fees

Should their be a book of the certified graders..... Yes

Should this thread be broken into 10 smaller threads? No.

Steve27 · May 14, 2003 9:46PM

First, yes you should have made this into ten different threads. That aside, I agree there should be some sort of test for certifying graders.Their certification should be on file with the company they work for and their initials should go on every slab which contains a coin they graded (that way you don't even need a date on the slab).

MadMonk · May 14, 2003 9:48PM

Adrian, Your MAD, Brilliant, but MAD!

Does your mind ever rest?

You've actually brought up an excellent point / idea. Credentials would add another level of legitimacy to all this.

VonZipper · May 14, 2003 9:55PM

I think that certifying the graders is pointless on an individual level. The company's have a financial incentive to police their own employees with grade guarantee's that might cost them down the road. Who is going to certify the certifiers? I think that maybe they should let the market grade the companies like the survey that was done a while back. Just have the survey's every 6 month's and post the results. Do an internet survey and allow dealers, collector's etc. to vote on different type's of questions. Most anyone can become a doctor but does that mean that all doctor's are the same because they have a piece of paper. You don't like your doctor or think he's know's what he is doing, you change doctor's.

VonZipper · May 14, 2003 9:59PM

----Who's gonna pay for this? Grading/certification fees-----

In other words collector's and dealers. Grading fee's will go up to cover it.

ANACONDA · May 14, 2003 10:00PM

"Does your mind ever rest?"

I pass out occasionally.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · May 14, 2003 10:05PM

aDRIAN

In one way or another we're ALL certifiable

Stewart

ANACONDA · May 14, 2003 10:10PM

I totally agree. Deny that you have psychiatric problems and you're exactly the kind of guy i'll watch.

MrEureka · May 14, 2003 10:55PM

Certifying the certifiers is a dead end. Grading is too subjective.

On the other hand, there's no NEED to certify the graders or the grading companies. All we need is a TPG Board of Appeal with teeth. Any TPG that would not agree to be subject to the decisions of that BOA would be at a competitive disadvantage.

dorkkarl · May 14, 2003 11:03PM

"certifying graders" is an absurd notion. i expect the subject will die a deservedly quiet death.

it'd be like certifying stupidity. too many variables...

K S

nwcs · May 14, 2003 11:06PM

I think the protocol should be like the way computing standards are set up. The big companies all argue for several years till one of them bribes the rest and promotes a standard that the rest can adopt. Then life gets better.

dorkkarl · May 14, 2003 11:09PM

the ultimate will be when the ana decides it's time to start certifying collectors

you'll have to be certified before you may buy a coin.

K S

Coin Finder · May 14, 2003 11:12PM

Can you imagine how big the slab is going to be to be get these graders slabbed once they are certified?

What if they come back in a body bag?

On a more serious note, I do not like the idea at all.

I think the collecting community will pay for it and it will s uck more money out the hobby.

I think the grading services that mean anything know their stuff and have learned through practice and hands on work.

The market will take out the services that are subpar.

What we collectors need to do is certify ourselves.

Tbig

MadMonk · May 14, 2003 11:27PM

Certification would be that a person was trained, is supposedly versatile, and knowledgeable in a broad spectrum, to work as a professional grader. No, the piece of paper would not make him a Talented grader, just like a degree doesnt make a Talented Doctor, Engineer, or Lawyer. In addition, I consider the idea that even a less talented Lawyer knows more about law than my self. Does a supposedly less talented grader know more about grading than me, probably in the big picture.

coinguy1 · May 14, 2003 11:42PM

Sorry, but even if it were practical (which it's not) to certify graders, I don't think it would solve the problems people have with the major grading services, anyway.

Here are a few factors, that, in my opinion, would make such certification a moot point:

1) Grading is and will always be subjective. Unless, of course, technology were created and employed to grade coins in such a way, that the same coin would grade the same each time. In that case, submissions would fall off significantly and the major grading companies wouldn't have the $ to do part of what they do now.

2) I have said this on these boards more than once already, but - many people (collectors AND dealers) either do not know how to grade very well, or are proficient at grading BUT are unwilling or unable to look at their coins objectively. So, even if grading were theoretically perfect, there would still be MANY, MANY people who were dissatisfied with the grades.

3) In my opinion, many of the problems with grading are NOT due to the inability of the graders to grade more accurately and consistently. There are pressures that affect the major grading companies and their grading of coins - competitive pressures, time pressures AND, perhaps most importantly, the pressure to achieve the delicate balance between: grading liberally enough to keep the coins coming in, VS. conservatively enough so that the end buyers are satisfied with the product. I would not want to have to face those pressures on a daily basis,whether I was well paid for it or not!

Clankeye · May 14, 2003 11:53PM

<< I would not want to have to face those pressures on a daily basis,whether I was well paid for it or not! >>

And since you actually did at one point in your career, that gives your opinion some credibility. IMO.

Clankeye

Barry · May 15, 2003 12:07AM

What would help solve the problem is have the grading companies be non-profit organizations, so they don't have the financial incentives to play games (cross-over/crackout discrepancies, gradeflationi, market grading, etc.) like they do now. Grading to ANA standards is what should be certified, not the individuals.

barberlover · May 15, 2003 12:09AM

Adrian,

How dare you question the wisdom of the holy annointed one king David- he has picked in his wisdom the graders he has choosen were from the no names given group of graders he says are the only people in the world who can grade correctly.

You would dare question this ????

You risk his mighty wrath !!!! Les

Oh yeah, one more thing [LOL}

in all seriousness, it would be a good thing to at least have a list of names of the people doing the grading.

Clankeye · May 15, 2003 12:13AM

<< What would help solve the problem is have the grading companies be non-profit organizations, so they don't have the financial incentives to play games >>

Why on earth should they have to do that? Should the dealers all become non-profit organizations too (many already are

). Should collectors have to give any coin profits to charity? Numismatics isn't a charitable undertaking for the most part. It's a business. The grading companies have as much right to make a living at it as the companies that provide numismatic supplies, or periodicals, or anything else coin related.

Clankeye

DCAMFranklin · May 15, 2003 12:14AM

I say he is world class.

I hired him, so he MUST be world class.

End of story. Quit your whining!

MadMonk · May 15, 2003 12:14AM

As usual, good points Mark. Your coming at it from a pro's (enlightened) point of view. I always want to try before admitting failure, hence my altruism. I'm still hopeful that the hobby, or industry, could overcome some of your points. The human factors will always be a problem, but can they be lessened without High tech? I guess I can sometimes have a lot of faith in mankind to overcome it's supposed limitations.
I wonder If I'm interpreting your point 3 correctly, if I am, it's a major problem, and the money/profit angle is too pervasive to allow consistency. So, I'd have to agree that if your points arent overcome to some degree, it is a moot point.

Conder101 · May 15, 2003 12:30AM

<< The market will take out the services that are subpar. >>

And ACG is the second oldest grading firm still operating. I guess that means they are NOT subpar.

DeepCoin · May 15, 2003 1:43AM

I think it would be better to certify the grading services as opposed to the individual graders. ANA would be the logical vehicle to do this, but they worry far too much about the politics of the matter, not to mention getting sued.

The idea has merit on a high level, but figuring out how to accomplish it in the marketplace would be virtually impossible.

I would also say that the market is reasonably efficient. The amount paid for the same coin in different company's slabs demonstrates this fairly well, but not perfectly. Our friend ACG is losing share quickly, I searched on ACG a couple of days ago in Mercury's on eBay and there were 2 ACG coins listed, while NGC and PCGS had over 200 between them.

pmh1nic · May 15, 2003 3:03AM

I answered the question and feel there is room for improvement. That said there is a limit to the precision and consistency that can be achieved when it comes to grading coins. As Mark and others have said grading is not a precise science and probably never will be. There are always going to be differences of opinion regarding eye appeal, how much a particular mark should detract from the grade or just how weak is that weak strike. Where is the line between nice luster, brilliant luster and blast luster?

I think the more important issue is educating collectors about just what the grade on the slab represents. It may be someones very educationed and informed opinion but due to the imprecise nature of grading is just an opinion. People that lay out big dollars based on an opinion regarding what constitutes the difference between an MS-67 and 68 are placing IMHO an undue confidence in a subjective, sometime biased and at times a fluctuating opinion.

It's the money involved in these one point differences in grade that drive the discussion regarding more precision and consistency in grading.

Folly.

coinguy1 · May 15, 2003 3:07AM

<< I think the more important issue is educating collectors about just what the grade on the slab represents. It may be someones very educationed and informed opinion but due to the imprecise nature of grading is just an opinion. People that lay out big dollars based on an opinion regarding what constitutes the difference between an MS-67 and 68 are placing IMHO an undue confidence in a subjective, sometime biased and at times a fluctuating opinion. >>

pmh1nic, well spoken!

Elcontador · May 15, 2003 4:14AM

Mark,

You are probably the most diplomatic person on the planet. You managed to answer the questions without getting anyone bent out of shape. I could not do that.

coinguy1 · May 15, 2003 4:40AM

MadMonk, yes, I do believe that improvements can be made without resorting to high tech.

Jeff, I couldn't do it either - someone must be using my user name when I'm not looking.

Thanks, though.

Adrian, whether I agree with your points or not, I (almost) always enjoy the threads you initiate and appreciate your thought-provoking topics and viewpoints. PS - I suspect that at least some of the ideas you put forth are for the sake of discussion, and not necessarily ones you advocate.

jeffnpcb · May 15, 2003 5:19AM

I don't care if they certify the graders or not! Remember it is subjective as usual. The best thing they could do is list and show pics of all people in their office from the time the coin is recieved till the time it leaves. A small report on their history and specialty would go a great deal further than have some Billyjoe Tombob passing a test, getting certified and didn't graduate from high school.
Kind of like Doctor's , Lawyers and Accountants. They just study for test they have to pass regardless of how skilled they are in their trade!

ANACONDA · May 15, 2003 5:43AM

"I suspect that at least some of the ideas you put forth are for the sake of discussion, and not necessarily ones you advocate."

Yes, and thanks for pointing that out for the sake of those that need to have that pointed out. I often assume way, way too much.

adrian

MadMonk · May 15, 2003 5:48AM

Adrian, I sincerely appreciate your very active, tangential mind. I also appreciate your enthusiasm, it's quite infectious.

ANACONDA · May 15, 2003 7:05AM

Knowing what you're doing is certainly part of the picture
However, there's a certain amount of trust involved in almost any investment. For example.....

Is the bluesheet or greysheet number for a particular coin a true representation of the value of the coin or is someone influencing them? (I bought a coin that bluesheeted once at 150K....the next sheet it dropped to 98K)

Will the guy who i send the money to, send me the coin?

Is the coin going to change colors while in the holder?

Is the coin stolen?

The objective with certifying graders is not to try to convince everyone that it solves the one last hurdle of determining coin grades and hence values.

The objective is to add another reasonable aspect of protection....to add one more dimension of help for coin buyers that being to help them differentiate between the third world grading companies and the ones whose opinion is more meaningful.

That additional could lead to helpful statements being made like.....

"PCGS and NGC employ only graders that are independantly certified by The Professional Numismatists Guild while the grading service owned by Shatan Scmager employs three felons who are not certified by the PNG and in fact grade coins by having them held up to the telephone by assistants in another state."

ANACONDA · May 15, 2003 7:06AM

"Adrian, I sincerely appreciate your very active, tangential mind. I also appreciate your enthusiasm, it's quite infectious. "

Thanks, dude. I am beet red.

I am also crazy about coins and i'm glad it shows!

adrian

ANACONDA · May 15, 2003 7:13AM

"I think it would be better to certify the grading services"

....maybe...but to certify the graders helps them make more money (a good thing, i think.....good graders can make really, really good money participating in the coin market buying, selling and upgrading coins.....but what we the market needs are incentives for the good graders to stay graders as opposed to becoming crack out dudes and leaving the grading to guys who couldn't make it as.......crack out dudes!)...

and it means that a grading company could improve it's product by focusing on hiring certified graders, as a grading company is only as good as it's graders (as a parrallel.....Consumer Reports grades cars, not car manufacturers).

By the way...what we're doing in this thread is brainstorming....generally a necessary precursor to identifying the potential parameters which allows selection of the best options to be made....working out the bugs for the movers and shakers and entrepreneurs who can help us all....

nwcs · May 15, 2003 7:45AM

You know, even though grading certainly has a subjective part to it, I don't think anyone can make the claim that it cannot be learned. Otherwise there would be no grading classes, no services, and so on. And the market would be in a mess. Given that there are standards, and that there are classes that teach the standards, it follows that there can be a measure of certification that a grader must pass through to be certified at the lowest level.

Think of it like a high school diploma. It merely states that you met the minimum requirements necessary to graduate. Doesn't predict ability, nor does it demonstrate exceptional ability. What it does is certify that a person has been properly exposed to certain things and has demonstrated some proficiency at it.

In this light, I think all professional graders should have this requirement. And I think that all companies that certify coins should have this requirement.

Neil

Coin Finder · May 16, 2003 6:14AM

Conder101,

You sir are incorrect.

Read the whole statement not part of it.

Have a nice day!

Let's talk about certifying the graders......

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