Options
The Final Chapter - Long & Scary Thread! - You write it!
MrEureka
Posts: 23,947 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was going to write Chapter 6 - the Final Chapter - but then I realized that it would be more fun to let you do it. So, let your imagination run free and tell us what happened with Guy, Mark, Doc, the PNG and The Coin AFTER the arbitration decision was revealed to the parties!
(Yes, I'll eventually tell you what REALLY happened.)
For those who don't remember the details of the first five chapters:
CHAPTER ONE
Long Beach Coin Show, 1989
Guy, a PNG dealer and "Pretty Nice Guy" (hence, his fictitious name) shows a raw uncirculated 1813 half eagle to Mark, a very sharp coin dealer. (It will later become clear how our second character got his fictitious name.) He explains that he has the coin on consignment and wants a second opinion on the coin before offering it to a good retail customer "back home".
Mark looks very closely at the coin, loves it, and rather than giving his free opinion he tries to buy it. Under some pressure from Mark, Guy reveals that the coin is on consignment to him at 25K and that he was going to charge his customer 30K. Mark convinces Guy to sell him the coin instead, at the same 30K, which at the time was about an MS64 price. A deal is consummated. Mark is thrilled because he thinks it's a 65 worth 100K. Guy pays the consignor 25K and both he and the consignor are happy.
CHAPTER TWO
Several weeks have passed. Mark has sent his 1813 half eagle to both major grading services. Both have bodybagged the coin for "Altered Surfaces". (In fact, the entire coin was probably very lightly whizzed.) Although Mark still thinks the coin looks great, he realizes that he made a big mistake paying 30K for the coin.
CHAPTER THREE
Mark confronts Guy and asks for a refund. Guy says "Sorry, a deal's a deal. Besides, I've alread paid my consignor and he's not going to give me a refund. Why should I have to give you a refund?" Under pressure from Mark, Guy reveals the name of the consignor - "Doc", a well known coin dealer and major league doctor. Mark confronts Doc, again asking for a refund, and gets nowhere. In fact, Doc refuses to acknowledge that the coin has been whizzed. (Doc's refusal may be sincere. We don't know if he whizzed the coin himself, and the coin is obviously very deceptive.)
CHAPTER FOUR
Mark decides that his best chance at getting his money back is to take Guy to PNG arbitration. (As you recall, Guy is a PNG dealer. PNG is an exclusive dealer organization that purports to hold its members to the highest standards.)
Mark makes two claims:
1. There is a set of unwritten rules among honest coin dealers, and those rules allow for the return of whizzed and/or repaired coins.
2. He was defrauded. He concedes that Guy may not have known that the coin was whizzed, but even so it would still be his responsibility to refund Mark's money and go after Doc.
Guy makes one lone claim in his own defense:
1. All dealer-to-dealer transactions are final and without recourse.
Three arbitrators are selected. They are deeply divided. Two strongly support Mark. One strongly supports Guy. The process by which they ultimately reach a unanimous decision will make for the most interesting chapter yet.
CHAPTER FIVE
The three arbitrators decide that because Mark did not rely on any of Guy's representations in making his purchase decision, there was no fraud. They also reject as too broad Guy's argument that all dealer-to-dealer transactions are final.
Still, the three arbitrators are deeply divided. Two of them believe that there are indeed "unwritten rules" that govern dealer-to-dealer transactions, and that those rules allow for the return of whizzed coins. They also believe that if these "unwritten rules" existed, then Mark was entitled to rely on them when making his purchase from Guy, and Mark would therefore be entitled to a refund. (Both of these arbitrators would, if in Guy's shoes, have unhesitatingly refunded Mark's money.)
The two pro-Mark arbitrators are surprised that the well-respected third arbitrator can see it any other way. They concede that the "unwritten rules" MAY not really exist. They determine that the only way to decide the case is to determine if the rules exist, and prepare a survey of PNG dealers (including Julian and MrEureka!).
Based on the results of the survey, the arbitrators had no choice but to acknowledge that no standard "unwritten rules" existed. Everyone simply abided by their own widely divergent unwritten rules. Decision in favor of Guy.
(Yes, I'll eventually tell you what REALLY happened.)
For those who don't remember the details of the first five chapters:
CHAPTER ONE
Long Beach Coin Show, 1989
Guy, a PNG dealer and "Pretty Nice Guy" (hence, his fictitious name) shows a raw uncirculated 1813 half eagle to Mark, a very sharp coin dealer. (It will later become clear how our second character got his fictitious name.) He explains that he has the coin on consignment and wants a second opinion on the coin before offering it to a good retail customer "back home".
Mark looks very closely at the coin, loves it, and rather than giving his free opinion he tries to buy it. Under some pressure from Mark, Guy reveals that the coin is on consignment to him at 25K and that he was going to charge his customer 30K. Mark convinces Guy to sell him the coin instead, at the same 30K, which at the time was about an MS64 price. A deal is consummated. Mark is thrilled because he thinks it's a 65 worth 100K. Guy pays the consignor 25K and both he and the consignor are happy.
CHAPTER TWO
Several weeks have passed. Mark has sent his 1813 half eagle to both major grading services. Both have bodybagged the coin for "Altered Surfaces". (In fact, the entire coin was probably very lightly whizzed.) Although Mark still thinks the coin looks great, he realizes that he made a big mistake paying 30K for the coin.
CHAPTER THREE
Mark confronts Guy and asks for a refund. Guy says "Sorry, a deal's a deal. Besides, I've alread paid my consignor and he's not going to give me a refund. Why should I have to give you a refund?" Under pressure from Mark, Guy reveals the name of the consignor - "Doc", a well known coin dealer and major league doctor. Mark confronts Doc, again asking for a refund, and gets nowhere. In fact, Doc refuses to acknowledge that the coin has been whizzed. (Doc's refusal may be sincere. We don't know if he whizzed the coin himself, and the coin is obviously very deceptive.)
CHAPTER FOUR
Mark decides that his best chance at getting his money back is to take Guy to PNG arbitration. (As you recall, Guy is a PNG dealer. PNG is an exclusive dealer organization that purports to hold its members to the highest standards.)
Mark makes two claims:
1. There is a set of unwritten rules among honest coin dealers, and those rules allow for the return of whizzed and/or repaired coins.
2. He was defrauded. He concedes that Guy may not have known that the coin was whizzed, but even so it would still be his responsibility to refund Mark's money and go after Doc.
Guy makes one lone claim in his own defense:
1. All dealer-to-dealer transactions are final and without recourse.
Three arbitrators are selected. They are deeply divided. Two strongly support Mark. One strongly supports Guy. The process by which they ultimately reach a unanimous decision will make for the most interesting chapter yet.
CHAPTER FIVE
The three arbitrators decide that because Mark did not rely on any of Guy's representations in making his purchase decision, there was no fraud. They also reject as too broad Guy's argument that all dealer-to-dealer transactions are final.
Still, the three arbitrators are deeply divided. Two of them believe that there are indeed "unwritten rules" that govern dealer-to-dealer transactions, and that those rules allow for the return of whizzed coins. They also believe that if these "unwritten rules" existed, then Mark was entitled to rely on them when making his purchase from Guy, and Mark would therefore be entitled to a refund. (Both of these arbitrators would, if in Guy's shoes, have unhesitatingly refunded Mark's money.)
The two pro-Mark arbitrators are surprised that the well-respected third arbitrator can see it any other way. They concede that the "unwritten rules" MAY not really exist. They determine that the only way to decide the case is to determine if the rules exist, and prepare a survey of PNG dealers (including Julian and MrEureka!).
Based on the results of the survey, the arbitrators had no choice but to acknowledge that no standard "unwritten rules" existed. Everyone simply abided by their own widely divergent unwritten rules. Decision in favor of Guy.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
0
Comments
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>They all start collecting Franklins and live happly ever after. >>
And then there were more Frankies for Lucy
Mark loaned the coin out to the NFL for the toss in the next Super Bowl. A devoted fan of the winning team then bought it from him for $50k and carries it around as a pocket piece.
Alternative 2:
There COINCIDENTLY was a small fire in Mark's office the following week and the coin--though not totally destroyed--now has interesting toning and (A) Mark's insurance paid $30k or (B) Mark sold it in the next toning craze for twice his original $30k investment. Interestingly, Guy bought it not realizing it was the same coin. It was their first transaction with each other since, well, the other transaction.
Heck......if all these professional dealers claim they never "saw" the problem.......surely ol Stevie can be happy with it! Even the PNG members are happy the matter is closed, and they can bury their heads in the sand again! What a survey THAT was!!!!!
Once again resides with Legend, the original purchaser "raw" at live Eliasberg auction. Laura and i "love" the same lady!
Guy then sues Mark, in order to get half of the anticipated profit. Before bringing the law suit, Guy had tried to convince Mark that if Mark had been nicer and more patient, Guy would have allowed him to return the coin in the first place. Mark didn't buy it!
Guy then takes the coin on approval from Mark for $100,000 after having discussed it with a guy named "Less Smart" (no relation to or alias for any current forum member!), who agrees to pay $150,000 for it on a sight seen basis. Less receives the coin and really likes it, despite the fact that it looks a bit odd - he just can't put a finger on it.
Less tells Guy "done deal" and Guy pays Mark the $100,000, thinking he has netted $50,000 on this "coin from heaven" (formerly "coin from hell").
Before actually paying for the coin, Less, in his very first post, proudly shows off his new treasure to the Coin Universe U.S. Coin Forum, where he receives a record 5,276 replies and quickly returns the coin to Guy, stating, among other things that a "done deal" is not always a done deal, (some) coin dealers are slime, the major grading companies are somewhat inconsistent and he is going to stick with ACG coins.
Part ll upon request
I started laughing out loud when I read your conclusion to Andy's story, but then fell silent because I'm terribly afriad that a scenario like it could be all too true!
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
In addition, 10 annual hours of ethics training is instituted at the behest of the ANA.
(A) Mark travels back in time and warns himself thereby changing his decision to buy the coin, hence chapters 1-5 disappear from the CU boards. Guy and Doc take a trip together to sell the coin to someone else since Mark is no longer involved in the transaction. Their car hits a diesel semi loaded with ammonium nitrate and the coin really becomes toned. A passerby finds the coin, gets it ACG certified and sells it on EBay for $49,995. The PNG lives happily ever after.
(B) Mark remembers the Brady Bunch episode featuring Greg Brady learning the meaning of caveat emptor when he bought a used car. Mark grows a whiteman's afro and goes on with life remembering to get all sales terms in writing. Doc and Guy continue to profit until they sell a doctored coin to Mike Tyson who later finds out. The PNG lives happily ever after. Doc and Guy do not.
So far, Julian's is the most imaginative (and unlikely) response!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Andy (Android) - I agree - I had the same thought you did!
Dave - sorry, I couldn't keep it a secret any longer.
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
Don't you just love happy endings?
The coin ended up in a 63 slab - not PCGS or NGC - and was consigned to one of the biggest auction firms in the country. The coin brought 63+ money. You know what the buyer must have been thinking...
The End?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I kind of figured it was inevitable the coin would get slabbed. Mark was buried in the coin and had to do something. And with that amount of money on the line, and given Mark's background, he surely wasn't going to just eat it.
I wonder if the new buyer ever found out the colorful story of his coin. Do you think a lot of people at that auction knew?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Sure would like to know what slab company. And if the buyer played the crack-out game and with what result?
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
<< <i>PNG institutes a mandatory continuing education program and requires all members to take 40 annual hours of CDE (continuing dealers education). >>
<< <i>In addition, 10 annual hours of ethics training is instituted at the behest of the ANA. >>
Yeah, like that's gonna happen.
Please! No bizarre, weird or total fantasies!
A couple of years ago, I was at the ANA Summer Seminar. I brought the survey results to show to a friend. Somehow, I ended up giving the survey to half a dozen numismatists sitting on the lawn outside a campus building. We had a blast! All of which I mention because it led me to offer to teach a Summer Seminar class on "numismatic ethics". (Please, no wisecracks about the oxymoron OR the teacher!) The offer was rejected because the class was not likely to attract participants, but I find your comment humorous in light of that experience...
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Highly unlikely.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I read this thread with great interest and anticpation. The interpretations and opinions were insightful and often humorous. The differences in perspective were challenging. I saw some of you trapped in the issues of pragmatics and ethics, suspecting but not knowing where this tale would end. In the end, I was disappointed in the principals that represent the foundations of the numismatic business world. If colleagues ( perhaps a loose term) in the dealer world and the regulatory organization that govern them, work on these principals , why should the end user (collector) believe that a better standard exists for them.
Andy,
Thanks for telling how it was (is); ignorance is not bliss. Yet, the story leaves you standing by the slot machine, holding a bucket of state quarters, addicted to pulling the handle with the state gaming commission data in your hand.
For those of you that are the exceptions, sleep well.
However, for all that stated that they were disappointed with the principle of the story in my (somewhat pessimistic) view it really proves a point.
The point is this: Everyone has their breaking point!!!!
It is easy to be the great ethical guy when the dollars are not significant (and realize for some that is $10. and others $100,000. or more).
But when real money is on the line, ethics get thrown out the window by many dealers (not all).
I have seen this phenomenom again and again so this is nothing new for me.
All were guilty in this story except for the last guy who winds up with the coin.
Joe.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Glenn
To me, it goes to show all the unpleasant events, and ramifications, caused by just one doctored coin. How many similiar stories, are untold, as there are thousands of doctored coins floating around.
And dealers still buy from this 'Doc', Right??? It is like the soap opera,
" AS THE COIN TURNS "
The purchaser in the auction bid what he thought the coin was worth. Another person, almost certainly, was the underbidder @ 5% less. The coin is not worthless. The only time it would be worthless, or just bullion value, would be if the coin were counterfeit.
All coins have value!!
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
If the answer is when the grader can't detect the doctoring, then why was this otherwise excellent coin not graded higher as Mark expected. Is the standard for this grading company that lightly whizzed is a two to three decrease in grade? Does the ultimate grading company usually ignore light whizzing? Did the coin get slabbed as a convenience to a troubled situation?
These are partly rhetorical questions but of significance.
Was this coin described by the auction house as lightly whizzed? If not how can a publicized situation go unnoticed or unacknowledged. What are the ethical standards for auction houses?
In theory, the major services have guarantees that probably state they will NOT encapsulate a whizzed coin. I seriously doubt that the coin got slabbed "as a convenience".
The auction house is resposible to their customers and catalog with those in mind. If they did not mention the whizzing, they probably did not see it. Some auction companies do "hide" their responsibilities behind the services' grades and guarantees. In my opinion, this is not the ethical thing to do.
<B>
</B>
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
ttt!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
1) Mark gets stuck with the coin. He submits it raw 85 times to one of the major TPGs, hoping for an MS 65.
It gets returned ranging from a bodybag up to MS 63.
2) Mark then takes the coin on a pilgrimage to the Wailing Wall in Jersusalem, the holy shrine at Mecca, and the shrine at Nossa Sra. de Fátima, in Portugal.
3) He returns to the U.S., and submits it raw to the same grading service for one last time. The coin gets bagged. Mark commits suicide. All of his belonging go to a shirt-tail relative, Bubba, who knows nothing about coins.
4) The relative takes this distinguishing looking coin to a local friend, who suggests he ask about it on these boards.
5) Without knowing the coin's history, some helpful posters suggest sending it to a (the same) TPG, which
Bubba does.
6) The coin comes back slabbed in an MS 65 holder, and Bubba sells it on E-Bay with no reserve.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>It is easy to be the great ethical guy when the dollars are not significant (and realize for some that is $10. and others $100,000. or more).
But when real money is on the line, ethics get thrown out the window by many dealers (not all). >>
Sadly, I find this quite true. And I must say, after some honest self-examination, I would include myself in this statement. It is all too easy to say, "My reputation is worth more to me than x-amount of dollars". And this is quite true, until that x-amount of dollars reaches up into the pain threshold.
I would have no business buying and selling five-figure coins (I can still count on my fingers, perhaps of one hand, the number of four-figure coins I've had). But if I did, I guess the ethical question boils down to how big a hit I could afford to take, financially. I would take a hit for a customer, even up into the lower pain threshold, but when one starts talkin' about a financial hit that could ruin me, uhmm.... well...
Let's just say I hope it remains a hypothetical for me and for most here.
the right circumstances, all integrity is for sale.
Camelot