Collecting shenanigans and how I am exiting the game.
Max
Posts: 124
A while back SUnnymead make a great post that got me wondering about why I collect and how much money goes into my collecting. But most important, is the coin business a fair business.
The following have lead me to question the motives and value of what I spend my hard earned money on:
-Dealers (not all) who come here to defend themselves against buyers' complaints. They hurry to register and then disappear without contributing anything to
the forum. Then you have the dealers who use the forums as part of their marketing plan and put a spin on all their self congratulating posts and
announcements. Almost as bad as spam.
-AT coins. Heritage this week slapped collector's faces by first pleading ignorance then couching that obviously ATed 1831 bust quarter by saying it could be AT. Disgusting.
PCGS should pull it and admit a mistake. AT coins in general will be an industry bane and all toned coins will suffer. Tastes and habits change quick in this
hobby and soon no one will trust anything toned.
-Crackout artists and gradeflation. Does the average collector stand a chance? No. Entire segments of the hobby have been ruined by incorrect pops and
dubious grades. This is were the industry has taken a step backwards not forwards. If a crackout artist can make $200,000/yr where is that money coming from?
-Registries. I used to love them until how I saw dealers actively marketing to the hype. It's not about collecting anymore it is about ego, competition and
bragging rights. In coins?!! One of the top 5 complete type sets which has been broken up, the owner took a financial bath on. Yet many will lead you to
believe you can make money on your set. Baloney.
Like Sunnymead I too came to conclusion this is no longer a level playing field. I buy at an inflated price an AT overgraded coin only to resell years later
to a dealer who offers me 20% back of bid because there is not liquidity in what I am selling. I have no problem with that...once I know how the rules work
[or dont work] and go into it with open eyes. Too many are operating on the assumption their coins will appreciate and be a wonderful legacy for their
grandkids or heirs. Baloney.
It would not surprise me to see on 60 Minutes or Dateline do some expose on how hobbyists are getting scammed out of their hard earned dollars. I consider
myself luck because I "woke up". A while back I asked which would people rather have. A $350,000 coin [collection] or an ocean front condo on Maui. I have made
up my mind, I will still collect but at a less than modest level.
Sunnymead's post helped me and I hope this post will help someone else not make huge financial mistakes. I am certain not all will agree and I can be viewed as a Cassandra. No one likes criticism but it can help you better define your strangths weaknesses and what you may be doing wrong.
The following have lead me to question the motives and value of what I spend my hard earned money on:
-Dealers (not all) who come here to defend themselves against buyers' complaints. They hurry to register and then disappear without contributing anything to
the forum. Then you have the dealers who use the forums as part of their marketing plan and put a spin on all their self congratulating posts and
announcements. Almost as bad as spam.
-AT coins. Heritage this week slapped collector's faces by first pleading ignorance then couching that obviously ATed 1831 bust quarter by saying it could be AT. Disgusting.
PCGS should pull it and admit a mistake. AT coins in general will be an industry bane and all toned coins will suffer. Tastes and habits change quick in this
hobby and soon no one will trust anything toned.
-Crackout artists and gradeflation. Does the average collector stand a chance? No. Entire segments of the hobby have been ruined by incorrect pops and
dubious grades. This is were the industry has taken a step backwards not forwards. If a crackout artist can make $200,000/yr where is that money coming from?
-Registries. I used to love them until how I saw dealers actively marketing to the hype. It's not about collecting anymore it is about ego, competition and
bragging rights. In coins?!! One of the top 5 complete type sets which has been broken up, the owner took a financial bath on. Yet many will lead you to
believe you can make money on your set. Baloney.
Like Sunnymead I too came to conclusion this is no longer a level playing field. I buy at an inflated price an AT overgraded coin only to resell years later
to a dealer who offers me 20% back of bid because there is not liquidity in what I am selling. I have no problem with that...once I know how the rules work
[or dont work] and go into it with open eyes. Too many are operating on the assumption their coins will appreciate and be a wonderful legacy for their
grandkids or heirs. Baloney.
It would not surprise me to see on 60 Minutes or Dateline do some expose on how hobbyists are getting scammed out of their hard earned dollars. I consider
myself luck because I "woke up". A while back I asked which would people rather have. A $350,000 coin [collection] or an ocean front condo on Maui. I have made
up my mind, I will still collect but at a less than modest level.
Sunnymead's post helped me and I hope this post will help someone else not make huge financial mistakes. I am certain not all will agree and I can be viewed as a Cassandra. No one likes criticism but it can help you better define your strangths weaknesses and what you may be doing wrong.
0
Comments
3 "DAMMIT BOYS"
4 "YOU SUCKS"
Numerous POTD (But NONE officially recognized)
Seated Halves are my specialty !
Seated Half set by date/mm COMPLETE !
Seated Half set by WB# - 289 down / 31 to go !!!!!
(1) "Smoebody smack him" from CornCobWipe !
IN MEMORY OF THE CUOF
If exclusively for the money (and a chance to make a lot down the line).......then you were/are more an investor rather than a collector. Certainly more guarenteed returns are available elsewhere........but not as much pleasure for sure. What's THAT worth?
Joe T
Once again resides with Legend, the original purchaser "raw" at live Eliasberg auction. Laura and i "love" the same lady!
hobby and soon no one will trust anything toned."
you are unfortunately right ~ I can't look at a toned coin without questioning it's authenticity (unless I know the dealer's history)
I am encouraged by some of your final thoughts, in that you will still continue to collect.
You probably got caught up in a fever and were not collecting for the enjoyment, but were involved for the possible capital gain and exagerated pride of ownership thru the Registry programs. I am glad that you caught yourself before you over committed finances to a level that you may have felt uncomfortable.
Numismatics is a hobby, and not supposed to cause aggrevation. If it gets to that point, it obviously is no longer enjoyable, and then not a hobby, but an obsession.
Many of the participants in the encapsulated end of numismatics are too much involved with the competition of the Registries and of the hopeful capital gain.
Keep collecting at a level that you can enjoy and focus on the series that bring you the most enjoyment. The key aspect of any collection is the collector's enthusiasm.
Your post and that of Sunnywood are excellent observations that all new participants should read. Good luck with your redefined hobby.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Yours waxing philosophically,
Wondo
I would also think that forums like this are an excellent place for newbies to pick up a lot of valuable information regardless of whatever else goes on here.
dragon
Ned
I'm sure you can continue to find enjoyment in the hobby with your adjusted goals. It's a hobby - there's no point if there's no fun. Perhaps buy a few coin books and spend a couple evenings reading. It works for me! Good luck to you.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
You make some very good points about personal interests in general. Yes, AT is a scurge and all the crack-out artists and doctors are a pox on the hobby. Is the coin business fair you ask? Fair is a relative term. Is real estate fair? I know several people who will tell you that real estate is filled with corruption. There are very few, if any, interest groups, activities, or industries that are free of abuse. Heck, look at the abuse that goes on in religion. And by its nature it should be free of corruption. Caveat Emptor!
What I really think your post examines is the need to make priorities in your life. I applaud you for prioritizing your interests. If a condo in Hawaii will bring you more joy than coin collecting and you are unable to financially afford to commit equal resources then by all means...........buy the condo and reduce your coin collecting. I think based upon your post you have made a wise decision.
In looking at my recreational interests I would estimate that coin collecting ranks about 4th in time spent and about 2nd in resources spent. I have many interests and it is all about priorities. Thanks for making me think about my priorities. We should all take an inventory more often.
You won't buy half as many coins this way but you will rarely make a mistake and the ones you do keep will always make you proud you bought 'em. Maintaining this discipline is very hard...even for those with 10-20-30 years experience. We all break down at times. You can do well in this hobby if you stay disciplined and focus.
roadrunner
Yes, I have to admit I was caught in the frenzy of the registry AND I was in it for the money. No one and I mean no one [ok maybe Bill Gates] can pony up say $50,000+ or be buying $5,000+ coins and say it is "just " a hobby. Be honest, how many like to drop $300,000 into coins and sell say 7 yrs later for $250,000 or even $300,000? It is all relative, that IS alot of money for me. Maybe for some a $1,000 is alot.
As for real estate, I was using that as an example. But I would rather have that property than my metal disks encased in plastic. Also the real estate business is a regulated business. Coins are the wild wild west.
Rereading my original post I do sound very negative but I hope I can help maybe just one other person wake up, in time. I am selling now because I want to, don't need to and should be OK. Those who chase pop tops and moderns costing thousands better have a seat lined up because when the music stops a bunch of folks will be looking for a chair.
<< <i>
Rereading my original post I do sound very negative but I hope I can help maybe just one other person wake up, in time. I am selling now because I want to, don't need to and should be OK. Those who chase pop tops and moderns costing thousands better have a seat lined up because when the music stops a bunch of folks will be looking for a chair. >>
Perhaps you should consider collecting some moderns. We're having a blast and
can put together some pretty impressive collections for a few thousand dollars.
Russ, NCNE
Meant to say to each his own.Deep thoughts for Jack Handey. It kind of struck me like, I'm selling my car because I'm tired of throwing money down the tank always having to buy gas.
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
coins are not an investment no matter how much you spend
know exactly what you are buying and be able for yourself to determine the market value of a coin
buy the coin not the holder
only buy with discretionary funds
if you do all of the above then you will be okie
if you do not do all of the above that is okie just LET THE BUYER BEWARE
if as per the above you think anything different that is okie but then you are not reality based
and yes i have no doubt there are some who have gotten rich in the coin game or have done very well
but there are always excpetions to the rules
and as for dealers well the above doesnot apply they are in it to make a living a business some do okie some do good and some lose their ass and go onto extreme emotuional distress
but you cAN DO whats you wants to do just do not cry AND scream and moan if you go into the coin game with expectations and your eyes wide shut
sincerely michael
the coin game has been like this since as long as i can remember and it will never change unless human nature changes
think about it
sincerely michael
sincerely michael
"metal disks encased in plastic" .... "METAL DISCS ENCASED IN PLASTIC"!!!!!?????!!!!!!!
Sheesh, that is sooooooooooo depressing when you put it that way. Makes me want to slit my wrists. You seem to have lost
the thrill and real passion for coins.
While I agree with you that any collector/investor in coins should be careful of the coins they buy in terms of future value, I
whole-heartedly disagree with everything else. The "hobby"/"business" of coin collecting has grown tremendously over the past
years, and any such expansion is going to be accompanied by con men/women trying to make a buck.
Yes, there are plenty of rip-offs to be had out there, but that has always been true to some extent. If it wasn't with AT, it
was/is with fudged mintmarks, if not with faulty population reports, than with something else., etc......
As for me, I'll keep collecting and loving the "metal disks" that I collect for their beauty and history and rarity. I suppose that for you this
is more of an issue of investing wisely...and I respect that...BUT time moves on and so will this very healthy "game" of coins.
Cheers
<< <i>
Numismatics is a hobby, and not supposed to cause aggrevation. If it gets to that point, it obviously is no longer enjoyable, and then not a hobby, but an obsession.
<< <i>
Thus I can infer that Greg was/is obsessed?
Those are some very valid thoughts. I also particularly like Michael's post several posts above this one. That is one of Michael's best posts ever !!
My mom has a saying that I often repeat in all facets of life: "Nothing is ever either as good or as bad as it seems." But of everything I can think of, the coin market challenges this maxim the most !! Coins are both much better and much worse than they seem !!!!!!!! I still find them obsessing and awesome. They become to us much more than metal discs encased in plastic. On the other hand, they are, in fact, metal discs encased in plastic !! I guess it's PEOPLE who corrupt the game, not the coins themselves. On the one hand it's a fabulous hobby, on the other, a veritable Cambodian minefield.
Now that I have sold numerous great rarities such as the 1877 proof set with gold, an AU58 Chain cent, and an 1802 half dime in XF, and finest known specimens such as the 1867 Rays shield nickel in PCGS MS67 (not to mention the PCGS PR64 and PCGS PR65 that I owned & sold), I want to tell you about my new collecting endeavor. You are going to think I am kidding, but I'm not.
I bought some state quarters coin boards and I'm filling them up from my pocket change !!! Boy is that fun !!! I have just about all the P-mints, but as I live in New York, the Denver issues are harder to come by in circulation. Searching for them reminds me of filling an old green Lincoln Cent coin board with my dad when I was a kid. And my coins cost no more than FACE VALUE !!
Compare that to some of my past ways: I once spent over $10,000 for an 1885 nickel, over $20,000 for an 1867 Rays nickel, over $30,000 for an 1852 proof seated dollar, over $40,000 for an 1877 proof $20, and over $50,000 for the aforementioned AU58 Chain cent. Face value: $21.11. Bullion value, maybe $350. Cost: $150,000. Thanks to the good Lord I recovered the $150,000 (and a little extra) upon resale !!!! And that's just five coins. I wouldn't even TELL you how many coins I once owned (and virtually NONE valued at less than $1000 except a few of the NGC MS Lib nickels).
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
There is always a way to collect. Never surrender the hobby!
I offer this as someone who on multiple occasions has almost "surrendered" the hobby.
Clankeye
<< <i>For me, as a newbie to collecting, this post is very disturbing and depressing. I had no idea how bad I was getting screwed. I think I'll quit. >>
<< <i>Russ, NCNE >>
Russ;
If you need a home for that new 68DCAM AH . . .
Pete
Ignore those dealers
I think Heritage did the correct thing concerning that specific coin. PCGS saw the coin as market acceptable, and Heritage made changes to their item description once they were notified that the coin may have been AT'd. I don't see what's so "disgusting" about that.
Don't pay attention to Pop reports. It's that simple.
The Registries are ok. I don't do any of them, but I can see the allure. If you don't like what they stand for, or the methods employed by those involved.....don't participate. Who the hell told you a registry set was going to make you money?? That's a POOR assumption on your part.
Depending on what you collect, yeah, you may get offered 20% back of bid when it comes time to sell. I'll tell you what. Put a collection of Early Bust type coins together (properly graded), and do nothing with the coins for a couple of years, and watch yourself get offers FROM DEALERS at above bid for those coins. That's a simple one, and there are plenty of other series/segments of the coin hobby, that CAN prove to be a good investment vehicle. Just like stocks, nothing is guaranteed though.
As much as I hate to admit it, yes, there are plenty of collectors getting screwed. If you are spending enough money for it to matter, and you DON'T DO THE NECESSARY RESEARCH as to where that money is being applied, you deserve what you get. That goes for a heck of a lot more than coins. Are you going to invest $350k in the stock market or real estate without doing thte proper research?
Collect coins because you like it. Invest in what you think will make money. Two different things, and you seem to have mixed the terms of collecting and investing up.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
I'm still here, so I guess for me the positives outweigh the negatives. It probably has a lot to do with my attitude and my ability to determine which people I deal with, which coins I collect, and how I collect them. If in some bizarre unimaginable circumstances I had no control over these things, I would also "exit the game".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Did you buy any Real Estate lately? You think your coins took a hit!