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Chapter Three - No longer long but just as scary thread!
MrEureka
Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭
To recap:
Chapter one:
Long Beach Coin Show, 1989
Guy, a PNG dealer and "Pretty Nice Guy" (hence, his fictitious name) shows a raw uncirculated 1813 half eagle to Mark, a very sharp coin dealer. (It will later become clear how our second character got his fictitious name.) He explains that he has the coin on consignment and wants a second opinion on the coin before offering it to a good retail customer "back home".
Mark looks very closely at the coin, loves it, and rather than giving his free opinion he tries to buy it. Under some pressure from Mark, Guy reveals that the coin is on consignment to him at 25K and that he was going to charge his customer 30K. Mark convinces Guy to sell him the coin instead, at the same 30K, which at the time was about an MS64 price. A deal is consummated. Mark is thrilled because he thinks it's a 65 worth 100K. Guy pays the consignor 25K and both he and the consignor are happy.
CHAPTER TWO (Posted Tuesday, April 22 at 4:20 PM)
Several weeks have passed. Mark has sent his 1813 half eagle to both major grading services. Both have bodybagged the coin for "Altered Surfaces". (In fact, the entire coin was probably very lightly whizzed.) Although Mark still thinks the coin looks great, he realizes that he made a big mistake paying 30K for the coin.
CHAPTER THREE (Posted Wednesday, April 23 at 2PM)
Mark confronts Guy and asks for a refund. Guy says "Sorry, a deal's a deal. Besides, I've alread paid my consignor and he's not going to give me a refund. Why should I have to give you a refund?" Under pressure from Mark, Guy reveals the name of the consignor - "Doc", a well known coin dealer and major league doctor. Mark confronts Doc, again asking for a refund, and gets nowhere. In fact, Doc refuses to acknowledge that the coin has been whizzed. (Doc's refusal may be sincere. We don't know if he whizzed the coin himself, and the coin is obviously very deceptive.)
Chapter four will take us into a PNG arbitration. But for now, a few questions:
1. Was Guy within his rights refusing to give a refund? Does it matter if Guy knew that the coin was whizzed?
2. Was Doc within his rights refusing to give a refund? Does it matter if Doc knew that the coin was whizzed?
3. If Mark was a collector, not a dealer, would your answers be any different?
Chapter one:
Long Beach Coin Show, 1989
Guy, a PNG dealer and "Pretty Nice Guy" (hence, his fictitious name) shows a raw uncirculated 1813 half eagle to Mark, a very sharp coin dealer. (It will later become clear how our second character got his fictitious name.) He explains that he has the coin on consignment and wants a second opinion on the coin before offering it to a good retail customer "back home".
Mark looks very closely at the coin, loves it, and rather than giving his free opinion he tries to buy it. Under some pressure from Mark, Guy reveals that the coin is on consignment to him at 25K and that he was going to charge his customer 30K. Mark convinces Guy to sell him the coin instead, at the same 30K, which at the time was about an MS64 price. A deal is consummated. Mark is thrilled because he thinks it's a 65 worth 100K. Guy pays the consignor 25K and both he and the consignor are happy.
CHAPTER TWO (Posted Tuesday, April 22 at 4:20 PM)
Several weeks have passed. Mark has sent his 1813 half eagle to both major grading services. Both have bodybagged the coin for "Altered Surfaces". (In fact, the entire coin was probably very lightly whizzed.) Although Mark still thinks the coin looks great, he realizes that he made a big mistake paying 30K for the coin.
CHAPTER THREE (Posted Wednesday, April 23 at 2PM)
Mark confronts Guy and asks for a refund. Guy says "Sorry, a deal's a deal. Besides, I've alread paid my consignor and he's not going to give me a refund. Why should I have to give you a refund?" Under pressure from Mark, Guy reveals the name of the consignor - "Doc", a well known coin dealer and major league doctor. Mark confronts Doc, again asking for a refund, and gets nowhere. In fact, Doc refuses to acknowledge that the coin has been whizzed. (Doc's refusal may be sincere. We don't know if he whizzed the coin himself, and the coin is obviously very deceptive.)
Chapter four will take us into a PNG arbitration. But for now, a few questions:
1. Was Guy within his rights refusing to give a refund? Does it matter if Guy knew that the coin was whizzed?
2. Was Doc within his rights refusing to give a refund? Does it matter if Doc knew that the coin was whizzed?
3. If Mark was a collector, not a dealer, would your answers be any different?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Comments
Sounds like a bunch of adults got into a mess, doing the things that people do that lead to trouble. That's about all my brain can process.
These have been great threads and a wonderful story, though. I will let that stand as my miniscule contribution, and give way to those who operate in a world of more moral certainty....
Clankeye
1B. Yes, but i'd assume he wasn't certain even if he suspected or he never would have asked Mark for an opinion.
2A. Yes
2B. Yes
3. No
al h.
It does look like Mark fell into a trap but by making the offer he's responsible for his actions.
Guy is a sleeze if he sells a coin he knows is doctored without disclosure, even to another dealer. But Mark could have protected himself by conditioning his purchase upon the coin grading out at a grading service. Yeah, that might have led Guy to ask for a share of the profit if it graded higher than 64, but that's what hedging one's bets is about.
With regad to a party having actual knowledge that the coin was whizzed, does it may make a difference if the seller, knowing that a coin is whizzed, offers it for sale without disclosure but without any express representation concerning its grade or condition? In other words, does it make a difference if he sells it "as is", "what you see is what you get", versus making objectively false statements such as "this coin is totally original" or "grades MS64"?
And then what about statements that are just "puffery" such as describing it as "beautiful" or having "great eye appeal" which may be true despite or perhaps due to the doctoring?
I think the bottom line comes back to the fact that Mark could have conditioned his purchase upon third party grading. It just may be that the rules of the trade are that if you buy a raw coin you take 100% of the risk of getting stuck with a doctored or counterfeit unless you have an express contract with the seller that protects you.
CG
i sure hope this has a moral and that we all live happily ever after!!
al h.
Yes. Probably.
2. Was Doc within his rights refusing to give a refund? Does it matter if Doc knew that the coin was whizzed?
Yes. Not as much.
3. If Mark was a collector, not a dealer, would your answers be any different?
No. I think both should be treated with integrity.
If Mark were a collector, there is no question that he is entitled to a refund, especially if it is within normal return periods. The further that it gets from a return period, normally 15-30 days, the more difficult that it becomes for the refund process to go smoothly.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Yes.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Julian -
If you sold this same coin to a collector for 30K, and if you had already paid the consignor and had no recourse, how long a return privilege would you allow the collector?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
If you aren't an experienced grader/conterfeit detector/doctored detector, should you buy hi-dollar raw coins?
(note: sometimes even "paid professionals" get fooled!)
Personally, I can not even confidently detect rub, that's why I rely on the "paid professionals."
Now to the questions... hmmm, the person who paid the $30k is trying to weasel out of the deal after finding out from "paid professionals" what the real deal was all about, that was his risk, remember he thought it was a $100,000 coin! Would he have split those profits? (personally, I think not)
With the recent "done deal" thread still echoing in my brain, I will say Guy was within his rights to decline. It was a dealer-to-dealer transaction, and my understanding is that dealer-to-dealer sales are final unless explicitly agreed otherwise at the time. Plus, Mark talked Guy into selling him the coin. I suppose Guy might have shown Mark the coin in hopes Mark will like it and try to buy it, but as far as we know Guy only asked Mark for an opinion.
2. Was Doc within his rights refusing to give a refund? Does it matter if Doc knew that the coin was whizzed?
Simply from the standpoint that Doc had no dealings with Mark directly, and the coin was not a counterfeit, I think Doc is justified. I suppose it's not unreasonable to infer that Doc might have worked on the coin himself, but that's irrelevant.
3. If Mark was a collector, not a dealer, would your answers be any different?
Yes, but I don't know if I can come up with a compelling argument why that should be. There are plenty of collectors who could have played the same game as Mark - experienced and skilled graders who would buy the coin hoping for a big score if the coin 5's. If it doesn't, go back for a refund. Some of them can sit on the fine line between dealer and collector as it is, exploiting both roles to the extent possible. But if Mark was a collector, I think Guy should give a refund.
I want to say that any so-called collector who would buy a raw $25K early gold coin would no doubt be keenly aware of the risk and knew he was taking a chance. On the other hand, I'd rather argue that collectors should have more leeway (vs. dealers) than argue that the return privilege should be tied to a dollar amount.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Julian -
If you sold this same coin to a collector for 30K, and if you had already paid the consignor and had no recourse, how long a return privilege would you allow the collector?
Somehow the following section keeps coming out italicized. Sorry.
If I had already paid the consignor, it would have been past a normal period, even 30+ days. If my customer did not wish to refund the money, then I would offer to take the coin on consignment, again, and do the best I could for the person, even to the extent of no commissions and refunding the previously earned profit, if necessary. I do hope, however, that I would not have been taken in by the enhancing process. It is possible, but not probable.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
He doesn't know how to grade, and will not take responsibility for his own ignorance/speculating decisions.
If he made $70,000 on this coin he sure as hell wouldn't go back to give $35,000 to Guy!
Mark walks into the 1990 Long Beach Coin Show with his 1813 half eagle, an M4A1 rifle, and 1,000 rounds of ammunition...
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
The blue jacketed security guards escort him to the police car. The end.
Cameron kiefer
Mark is an extremely knowledgeable and successful coin dealer. The coin would fool 90% of all professional coin dealers. It would probably fool 98% of the people in this forum.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You're getting warm. Hint: think white, not blue.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Got quoins?
Mark commandeers the paddy wagon and drives it through the door of Doc's coin lab.
- man this story's getting good.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Cameron Kiefer
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
2. Yes and Yes
3. No
When you are swinging for the fences, as Mark was, then you have to be prepared to stike out. He did.
One thing for everyone to remember. If the work was as good as Andy says, and I believe it was, then the cataloguor of an auction house may not detect it either.
The technical answers are easier than the ethical ones and I'm not sure there's a right answer. Like everyone else I've been burned before, licked my wounds and regrouped. But I never bought coins again from the sources that led me astray and I remember them well. So what's right isn't always what's best from the seller's point of view. I just hope a compromise is the conclusion to this so Mark and Guy can still look each other in the eye.
Yeah, right, fat chance!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Is this still a hypothetical or work of fiction?
Lightly "whizzed" GOLD and undetectable by 90% of pros and 98% of us?!! I would like to see this item. Maybe it is not truly "whizzed" but wiped or polished; I just can't a whizzed gold coin and fooling 90% of the pros AND 98% of everyone else.
It's not a hypothetical. Believe it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
CG
Edited to add: This why I answered "No" in Andy's other thread asking who wants to be a coin dealer.
<< <i>Hint: think white, not blue. >>
Do ambulances and hospitals come into play anywhere in the future?
Clankeye
To do otherwise is foolish. To blame someone else after your greed gets the best of you is ever more foolish.
Yes, no.
No.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
From the PNG Code of Ethics:
Each PNG member takes the following pledge:
#7 To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customers.
(If you have any doubt that this refers to both collector and dealer customers, see #1, which uses language clearly implying that non-professional customers are a subset of a larger group of customers,i.e., a group that includes dealers.)
#1 To furnish advice to my non-professional customers on numismatic matters to the best of my ability.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Also, the fact that his name here is "Mark" tells me something as well. I am suspecting a set-up.
There never was a customer waiting to pay 30K for this coin and the pro dealers knew Mark was a complete scumbag, so with a little help from others, he was set up and stung.....big time.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Once again resides with Legend, the original purchaser "raw" at live Eliasberg auction. Laura and i "love" the same lady!
My Type Set
(Edit: I just realized we were talking about 1989.) Hmm.
1 Guy should not have to give a refund. Mainly because it was a consignment coin and Marc knew that.
1b If Guy knew it was whizzed than he should give a refund.
2 Doc should also not have to give a refund, 2b unless he knew it was whizzed.
3 No
<< <i>Dang, I just got suckered into responding to a two year old thread.
SUCKERRRRRR !!!!!!!