Important research input sought. Which type of collector are you? Separation of polictics from numi

wingedliberty

I would appreciate any contribution to research on an interesting topic that I have recently been thinking about. I have noticed that with recent events globaly as far as
war and more broadly one's stance and how it affects numismatic choices and collecting habits. More specifically, I am posing the following question:

1. Are you able to separate your personal and political views from your numismatic pursuits?
Example:
I happen to disagree with France's decision in the Iraqi war, but still collect French coins,because I look at coins as recording history. To me history is history and I separate
politics from numismatics.

Other examples may include Iraqi dinars with Hussein on them or Nazi swastika coinage
. For me its a matter of history and not politics. Of course aesthetics play a part, but history is history . What are your thoughts?

Brian.

Brian

MadMonk

I don't let politics influence my numismatic interests, nor many others for thay matter. The only time politics comes into my actions is if my action, or lack of same, will truly have a reaction. For instance, when I vote.

Russ

I just try to have some fun.

Russ, NCNE

coachleonard

I agree with you, Brian-- history is history. Otherwise, my Christian beliefs would keep me from collecting
and appreciating ancient coins with all manner of pagan symbols on them.

Steve27

I must admit that if someone gave me Nazi swastika coinage, I would melt it down or find some other way to destroy it.

wingedliberty

Interesting input so far.

Brian

BSqr

My take is a little different. Politics plays a role but in a very specific way. I've got no problem with collecting French coins so long as the money I spend on them is not going to a French entity. So I try very hard to direct my dollars. Likewise, I will not buy ChiCom gold, even if resold by an American entity as I do not want to support a market for those products in the slightest. I am also a socially conscience collector and consumer.

Edited to add: I have been checking out British coins. I'd like to direct a few $ in their direction and some of their coinss have some very nice designs.

baccaruda

i have a lot of Nazi 2 and 5 Mark Silver. I think it makes it even more interesting that it's illegal to even own ANYTHING bearing a swastika in Europe.

i would like an inscribed nazi presentation dagger - but those are WAY out of reach.

Clankeye

Brian--

I collect from a perspective of what interests me historically and aesthetically. As I mentioned in another thread, I collect Stone Mountain commemoratives, but it doesn't mean my sympathies would have been with the South in the Civil War.

I keep things separate.

Carl

dorkkarl

i collect coins that i like, & just don't waste a lot of energy worrying about that peripheral stuff

K S

wingedliberty

Very interesting perspectives everyone. I know its illegal in Europe to own swastika
bearing items, but are there not historic exceptions such as numismatics. Is it illegal in Germany to own swastika bearing coin?
I know they are very rigid. Also, good point Clank, as far as the Stone Mt coin, I know what you mean, you would be the last person thought of
as a Confederate sympathizer. As far as my SBA set, I am for womens rights, but you will not find me at a N.O.W meeting. lol.

Brian.

cladking

I can't separate anything out of what I am or how I see things. Even those things
which are minor or trivial to most are an important part of my perspective. This is
not to say that I can't look at an issue dispassionately or intellectually. The attention
on Iraq has me looking at all the coins from this region. It will be interesting to see if
there is much more interest in these coins. Collecting in Iraq must be extremely limit-
ed judging by the nominal prices some of the better coins command. Hussein's remov-
al is likely to result in a growing middle class and these people might have more inter-
est in coins. Will the desire for freedom spread in the Middle East?

I don't collect only those things which I feel an affinity toward. I also collect some items
which show all aspects of human behavior as manifested in coins and tokens. I collect
everything from hospital and museum tokens to brothel tokens. ...and from afghanistan
to Zimbabwe.

wingedliberty

Cladking:
Thanks for making me think.

Brian

paigowjohnny

Geez...I have Chinese pandas...just bought a French walker 1 franc...won an Iraqi 100 dinar note in a Yahoo auction...and somewhere I even have an old torn up 1000 dong note with Ho Chi Minh on it that I got from a Vietnamese "boat person" that my ship rescued back in the 80's

And I'm a nice republican member of the Navy establishment

I guess my politics haven't weighed in...

baccaruda

Brian -

There are NO exceptions in most European countries. ANYTHING bearing a swastika is illegal.

I know this it true in France, Germany, and Italy, but I think most other countries have the same policies.

wingedliberty

Thanks Barraccuda, and thank you everyone for the valuable insight.

Brian.

morganbarber

The two are seperate except for one general truth. American collectors of American coins are, for the most part, patriots.

Nysoto

I started a collection of one gold coin per country when gold was $250-$280. Have about 25 countries including France, Russia, China, Tunisia, Iran. A local dealer could not sell an Iranian Pahlavi, I bought it at melt. These are all historical, innovative, and beautiful coins. Politics was not a consideration, there are both good and bad people in every country, corrupt leadership does not mean the citizens are bad.

wingedliberty

Nysoto:
Well said.

Brian

Mark

My wife bought me a South African Kruggerrand before the fall of apartheid. I wasn't a fan of the apartheid policy (and the word "wasn't" is meant in its strongest possible sense) and neither was she, but at the time it was the only way to buy non-numismatic gold. After reflection, however, we decided to not buy any more Kruggerrands. And, I have refused to buy Chinese Pandas because of the Chinese murder of students in 1990. I also have no interest in buying any Nazi coins. So, in these extreme cases, I guess politics does play a role in my decisions.

Mark

Gilbert

Borrowed from Bsqr:

I am also a socially conscience collector and consumer.

I won't have any Nazi crap -- historically significant? Only insofar as the atrocities far outweigh any thing that come to mind for me, PLUS, I just think it is outright insulting to the survivors of those atrocities.

I wouldn't buy any currently minted French coins - it indirectly contributes to their coiffers

I admit I am not all-knowing and the list can and probably will be revised upward, but those two for sure won't change.

Gilbert

Borrowed from Bsqr:

I am also a socially conscience collector and consumer.

I won't have any Nazi crap -- historically significant? Only insofar as the atrocities far outweigh any thing that come to mind for me, PLUS, I just think it is outright insulting to the survivors of those atrocities.

I wouldn't buy any currently minted French coins - it indirectly contributes to their coiffers

I admit I am not all-knowing and the list can and probably will be revised upward, but those two for sure won't change.

BTW, I don't consider my decision to be based in politics; more on morals and decency.

BillJones

I collect U.S. political items in addition to coins. During the 19th century beginning with the 1824 presidential election, every major party candidate issued medalets for their campaign. The political button as we know it was patented and first issued during the 1896 campaign. I collect them all (tokens and buttons) from George Washington (The success token is thought by some to be a 1796 item, by others as a mid 1800s items) through Bush and Gore.

It does not matter to me what party issued an interesting medal, medalet or token, I collect them all. I especially like jugates (buttons that show the presidential and vice presidential candidates) and piece with political slogans that espoused the major issues of each campaign. Many political tokens are quite rare with recorded mintages of less than 50 pieces. Others are rare because no one saved them. The rarest 19th century presidential campaign tokens were issued for James K. Polk in 1844 and Lewis Cass, who was an unsuccessful Democratic nominee for president in 1848. In the 20th century all of the Cox and Roosevelt (THE Franklin D. Roosevelt) jugates from the 1924 election are the “1804 silver dollar and the 1913 Liberty nickel” for political button collectibles. A nice example of any of the Cox and Roosevelt jugates can sell for $50K.

As for France, I’d continue to collect their coins if I did collect them. Their current politics would not effect my collecting patterns although it would change my travel plans.

wingedliberty

It would seem that most numismatists are objective about coins representing history and don't let
their personal views interfere. This is great. I feel the same way.

Brian.

RGL

One does not have to endorse history, to appreciate it, learn from it or collect it.

Hitler/Nazis/Third Reich were genocidal murderers. The Holocaust must never be forgotten. But, erasing all images or memorabilia of the Third Reich does not accomplish that -- preserving the momentos and memorabilia does ... ala the Holocaust Museum in DC. Confrontation is much more powerful than cowardice.

lordmarcovan

I try to let politics influence as few facets of my life as possible. It's bound to (subconsciously) creep in occasionally, but the less, the better.

abuell

I don’t let politics influence my collecting interests.

I collect American colonial and confederation coinage and it doesn’t bother me that most of this coinage was minted by people who had declared war on their own lawful government. Nor does the fact that they murdered many of the patriotic soldiers that were sent to maintain order not by some leader who had only managed to win some election, but by one whose power emanated directly from God alter my collecting habits. The fact that after the war those who had supported their government were forced out of the country and their property stolen does not affect what I collect. I just feel that the coinage of the period is really neat.

coinkat

Bill Jones:

Collecting political stuff can be fun...there are many pins that have been reproduced so beware. Political posters are equally interesting because I believe that fewer actually survived. BTW, James M. Cox and Franklin Roosevelt were the Democratic Party candidates in 1920 and not 1924. John Davis was the Democratic Presidential Candidate in 1924.

Now for the question...

I collect French coins because I find them interesting. Louis XIII and Louis XIV didn't have much to do with what is happening today. I also collect coins from the German States. Its best to collect what you find interesting... whether it be the design and beauty of the coin or its historical significance.

Askari

I collect coins for their beauty and/or historical interest to me. Sometimes the latter is because of a certain event, sometimes in spite of it. Political winds are passing gales, so why punish myself for decisions made by a few for the many who may or may not have concurred. I've not been interested in Nazi coins, but I do have a fair number of their banknotes. Why? They fit in with one of my collecting themes which happens to focus on military occupation issues of the 20th century ... a theme for which I've found much more appeal among notes than the coins.

Lakesammman

I collect Clinton coins....the guy was a real clown and I love the parody coins.

cladking

I'm not a big fan of the nazi coins because they are well studied, but I like
the tokens and medals from the era. One member here collects the concentration
camp tokens. While this is an individual decision (and I see nothing wrong with
it), it is getting close to the line I have to draw.

nwcs

For the most part I separate my view of a political situation from numismatics. I have several nazi coins, for example. And it is about history. A way to show the future a piece of that time and bring with it the lessons learned. It's like the Romans. The Romans had a great sense of generational memory. When they destroyed something, they were sure to leave signs of the destruction everywhere. That way ever generation can look and ask their parents what happened and be reminded of Rome's might. In the same way, some coins - like nazi coins - invite questions where we can explain the evil of Hitler and his policies.

Neil

wingedliberty

Neil:
Excellent observation about Rome. They also used coins extensively as
propaganda when conquering new territory.

Brian.

hughesm1

<< <i>Brian - There are NO exceptions in most European countries. ANYTHING bearing a swastika is illegal. I know this it true in France, Germany, and Italy, but I think most other countries have the same policies. >>



NOT TRUE!!! I could walk into any coin store and pick up a German 3rd reich coin. All I've got to do is ask. I find them a lot at flea markets too. Oh yeah, it helps when I speak english. And yes, I am currently living in Germany.

baccaruda

Mark -

I'm sure they exist there, but is it legal?

Along the same lines, I'm sure I could walk into a gun shop here and, with the correct exchange of words/money etc., walk out with a fully automatic assault rifle.

hughesm1

I don't know the legalities but like I said, one can find them at flea markets fairly easy. At the coin shops I never see any on display, hence I have to ask. When I do get to see them, its when I'm the only customer in the shop and I have spoken to them in English.

So from that observation, I will deduce that it's not illegal to own them but most likely illegal to sell them.

wingedliberty

I think in Germany in particular, any items displaying any Third Reich symbolism are fiercly prohibited. From what I hear, there are stiff penalties for those who break the law.

Brian.

baccaruda

illegal things are not difficult to obtain necessarily. if i had the money, i could probably ride the train home tonight strapped with an AK, smoking a cuban, carrying a 20 pound duffelbag of hashish on my way to buy a black-market baby - none of which are legal to own.

everything's negotiable, laws just make things more expensive.

wingedliberty

Thats an excellent point baraccuda.
Got any 1964 Peace dollars?

Brian.

Twowood

I too, try to keep my politics out of my hobbies. It doesn't make sense NOT to buy French coins if you collect 'em. Who do you hurt besides yourself? Twowood

baccaruda

of course not! that would be illegal

wingedliberty