I have to agree with IWOG on this one. Local shops have to buy from the uninformed to stay in business, pure and simple. If they don't get that big score every week or so they will likely drown.
I'd love to be able to offer 80-90 cents on the dollar for material off the street. I could still resell it at a profit if I don't want to keep it. Yet the uninformed would prefer to go to the local dealer and leave with an unneccesarily large bite taken out of their hide. One local dealer in CT has been in business over 20 years and routinely buys at 10-30% of wholesale. On signficant items like matte proof gold or better date coins, he offers less than 10% in many cases. And in many cases he has no clue what he is buying. You have a BU seated dollar for sale? That would be bought for XF money....maybe $200. As the World Turns............
I am a coin collector. Life is short. I give most people the benefit of the doubt and assume they are good people until proven otherwise.
We live in a capitalist society...thank God. If coin dealers, lawyers, pawn brokers, doctors, gun dealers and factory workers didn't server a useful purpose they wouldn't exist.
One of the burdens of living in a capitalist society is to watch your back. Watch your back when you buy a car, go to the doctor, buy a house, enroll your child in school etc. We don't have big brother watching our back...thank God.
Again, I am a coin collector...not an automobile collector. If I were to inherit an antique car; I would expect to have to invest a significant amount of time in order to maximize the value of that car if I sold it. I wouldn't reasonably expect to go to the first automobile dealership and be offered the "best" price for the car. I would expect to have to research magazines, the internet and talk to other knowledgeable folks about the car in order to maximize its value when I sold it. If a person unknowledgeable about coins were to inherit a number of them; I expect that they too would need to invest a significant amount of time in order to maximize their value.
We live in a capitalist society...thank God. If you go around expecting every person to give you a fair deal; I'm afraid you will be sorely disappointed.
Again, I assume most folks are honest until proven otherwise. But I think it was Ronald Reagan that said: "Trust, but verify."
In a capitalist society, every legal (and some non-legal) occupations serve a useful purpose or they wouldn't exist. (There are a very few that once served a useful purpose; but that purpose has expired and they are on their way out.)
I missed this thread earlier and I've got to get in a quick comment. I know dealers who are honest and dealers who are not. I deal with the former and avoid the latter.
I do notice that almost all dealers have a common approach:
Customer interested in buying a coin: "What're you asking on that?" Dealer: "Oh, that's the first one of those I've had in a lomg time - they don't come around very often. " etc, etc.
Customer interested in selling a coin: "What can you do on this?" Dealer: "Oh, those are all over the place, really easy to find." etc, etc.
Hear it all the time...
Mike
Edit: BTW, if I knew of a dealer gouging widows, orphans, etc. by offering $100 for $1,500 coin, I sure hope he's an ANA member becuase I'll report him in a heartbeat.
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
Edit: BTW, if I knew of a dealer gouging widows, orphans, etc. by offering $100 for $1,500 coin, I sure hope he's an ANA member becuase I'll report him in a heartbeat.
This would be pretty much all dealers. Taking into account overhead and cost of living, it's the only way a full time dealer can stay in business.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Let's be honest, anyone and I mean anyone who goes around without educating themselves in whatever they are investing in, collecting, having problems with, buying or selling is going to be a problem for any professional, whether its a coin dealer, insurance broker, lawyer, automechanic, CPA, real estate agent, ect. They are always going to real "ripped off."
No one should go through life ignorant. Ignorant people get chewed up and spit out in this world. It's a fact, a sad fact, but still a fact.
If you have coins to sell, educate yourself. If you are buying a home, educate yourself. If you have a legal problem, yes, you too can educate yourself. With the advent of the Internet, most legal information is free and on the Internet for all to research. Find a friend that can help if for some reason you can't help yourself.
Visit several professionals. Most here would tell a friend to visit several dealers, seeking prices from all, before selling an estate. Well, if you don't like your first lawyer, go get another one. If you don't like your mechanic telling you that your 74 Pacer is going to need a new engine, get a second opinion.
Everyone has a choice. Exercise it. Ask friends for the name of a professional they have worked with and trust.
Michael, there are still a few people out there who 'trust" other people. Or some people are naive in thinking that if they take Grandads coin collection to a large respectable coin dealer, that the coin dealer, will have the ultimate knowledge of the value of their newly acquired collection, and will share that knowledge with them, so that a fair price can be realized for Granpa's coins. Going to several coin dealers, can unfortunately, have the same results. There are a large percentage of coin dealers who took the coin dealers course on how to make a fast buck and feel good about it. Having said all this, I know there are some very honest and admirable coin dealers, but I honestly believe they are outnumbered by the shady, no- conscience, greedy dealers. There are no laws for offering a widow $20 for a $20,000 coin, and frankly, this is a dream scenario for a lot of coin dealers. There actually are people who do not know how to determine the value of a coin or coins, and will go to a PROFESSIONAL COIN DEALER, to find out the value, because who else would know better, than a coin dealer. When you enter 'TRUSTY STEVE'S' coin shop, there should be a sign stating, ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK. Should be a State Law !!
Fratt, a Real Estate agent who follows your code of ethics will be sent to prison.
If your point is that a person must know as much about coins as the dealer before entering into a sales contract, then I must conclude you're a few fries short of a happy meal.
In most industries, an expert ripping off a novice is not tolerated and the dealer/broker/lawyer who violates agency law is subject to severe criminal and civil penalties. I happen to agree with this system because some people are not willing or capable of learning the material required to match the "professional". Sadly, agency law is almost never enforced in coin transactions because the seller usually assumes he/she got a fair deal, and collectors are scarce enough that they probably never will.
In my early years of coin collecting, I discovered a 1937 3-legged buffalo in about VF condition in my late grandfather's coin collection. I knew enough about coins to know that it was valuable, but I didn't know enough about coins to authenticate it. (few people do) I took it to my local dealer (this was a mistake, taking any estate to a coin dealer is a BAD mistake) who prompty told me it was counterfeit but he would buy it with the rest of my coins for a few bucks.
So Fratt, seller beware huh? I guess your vocabulary doesn't include the word FRAUD. Luckily I was beginning to form an opinion about coin dealers at that point and shot the coin off to ANA. It was slabbed a nice VF and I sold it for about $240 I believe.
Yes, coin dealers make the large bulk of their income taking money away from widows and orphans. Sad but true.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
I never said you had to be as "smart" as the professional, that is impossible. But what anyone can do is educate themselves to the point of where they feel comfortable OR ask friends, family members, anyone you trust, for a referral to a ethical professional. Deal with those that you know or come highly referred by someone you know.
And Iwog, it's not my "code of ethics," please see my post as to how I educated a experienced coin dealer as to 81 Type II mintmarks and saved him a ton of money. I could have ripped him off blind, but alas, he's a nice guy, and I didn't have the heart to do that.
But ignorance and laziness will come back to haunt you in life. I promise there will always be someone out there ready to part a fool and his money whatever the situtation.
And I just might be a few "freedom" fries short of a happy meal, but not because of what I posted here!
Question; Does anybody remember seeing a sign in a coin dealers window offering COIN APPRAISALS ??? It would eliminate sooooooooo much profit. Imagine advertising that you will give an honest TRUE VALUE of a coin collection. A PROFESSIONAL COIN DEALER offering A PROFESSIONAL COIN APPRAISAL !!! How unique !!!
I am not bashing all coin dealers, just the ones who I know exist and feed off the unsuspecting people who place their trust in them. Again I know a lot of very ethical and good people selling coins, but abuse is, and always has been, rampant in the buying and selling of coins.
Much truth and much rhetoric, although I DO understand why most have reached the conclusions they have.
I do take "umbrage," if you will with a few comments that I really don't understand.
Topstuf - I believe it is more often than not that people using pawnshop services DON'T have credit to mismanage and probably live under circumstances that almost compel them to need to utilize such services, which in most cases, are ... let me just say unfortunate. I don't want to malign any particular industry, other than to say, in this case, probably harms more than helps.
A couple posters have pointed out how asinine (paraphrased) it is for novice or the uneducated to expect decent treatment from a dealer. Maybe it IS naive to think one should be able to trust another, or expect the operator of a coin shop (inferred to be a professional coin dealer) to actually be a professional and fair. I just don't know why that perception is acceptable -- one SHOULD be able to expect professional and fair treatment and NOT have to expect that every single person is out to rip them off. Just to be clear, I would expect that my wife (numismatically challenged) to be able to go into a coin dealer business, and at least get a fair price for any item she would want to sell, and if she stated she was looking for the absolute best prices, the dealer would point her in the right direction. THAT should be the norm, not the exception. I realize that doesn't appear to be the norm, but it should be.
Zerbe - I THINK I detected some sarcasm in your question, but my local dealer DOES offer "appraisals" for a fee. Since I've never employed him for those services I can't assess how accurate/inaccurate they may be. Nevertheless, there is a dealer who offers the service. At least, I think that is what you were asking.
Of course, this is all from my collector and human (but not an idiot) perspective.
Gilbert, I realize there may be a few Appraisal signs out there, but I think the majority of coin shops do not display such a sign. If a widow were to enter Trusty Steve's coin shop and see an appraisal sign, she may ask for such and then the coin dealer would have to put on paper the actual value of the coins, or at least close to it. But now he has eliminated his oral low-ball ( sounds vulgar), offer opportunity. This is why I say you will not see many signs at coin shops offering appraisals. In other words, when the widow asks for the coin dealers professional opinion of value, on paper, it could differ immensely from his oral appraisal.
The truth of the matter is that a great many of the coins that people have in collections are not that desirable and not that liquid for most dealers. A dealer cannot pay “bid” for a lot of material for a number reasons.
First many collectors expect to pay “bid” or even a little less for run of mill items.
Second even if when a dealer sells a coin at “bid” that may not be his ultimate selling price. Quite often the state wants a slice in the form of sales taxes so that has to be figured into the equation.
Third, when a dealer buys a collection there are often coins in the deal that not part of his usual sales. Often times it’s best to sell these coins to other dealers, and those dealers often pay a certain percentage below “bid.”
Fourth, some coins have to be certified before they are marketable. For example I will buy genuine 1909-S-VDB cents raw, but before I will sell them, they have to be slabbed. Naturally I have to figure what it will cost me for the slab into the price I will pay for the coin.
Fifth, sometimes it takes a long time to sell some coins. A coin can sit in a dealer’s inventory for a year or more before it sells. Coins with low turnover and higher carrying costs bring lower prices.
It’s easy to call a dealer a crook because he doesn’t pull out the Gray Sheet and pay you those prices, but before you do you need to remember what YOU expect to pay for the coins you buy. And if it’s Gray Sheet “bid” then you have your answer as to why the offer is not higher.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Web. not hive, web......most dealers are arachnids.
I'm sure there are many people here who think I was exaggerating when I say dealers often pay 20% of greysheet. I'm not, it's common practice. Generally someone who brings in a large number of silver coins and doesn't know any better will be paid melt. Dates and mint marks will not even be discussed. Coin dealers justify this practice by saying they make almost nothing in the silver value, so the rely on key dates and rarities for their profit margin. If a 1916-D Mercury dime drops out of the cookie jar, then it's "Oh well, seller beware".
Dealers aren't going anywhere, I accept this. The only reason I'm having this conversation is someone screamed at me for telling a non-hobbiest NOT to take his coins to a dealer, and that he would be better off letting me look at them instead. Besides the legal ramifications of interfering with a potential contractual relationship, Mr. Detestable has also committed libel. Gotta love dealers..........
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
I had to run for the dictionary to find out that you were characterizing the people in my profession as spiders.
Before you condemn an entire group of people, I think you need to sit behind a bourse table for a while and see what it’s like to earn a living this business. Your accusation that dealers routinely rip sellers off by paying the silver price for accumulations is pretty much groundless.
Yes, if you bring in a jar of silver and have not bothered to do any research at all, chances are the jar of coins is going to get run though a counting machine, and you will be paid the silver price. Most bullion dealers don’t have the time to go though bags of silver coins because usually the search will yield nothing of numismatic value. Scare coins are expensive because there are not that many of them, period. They don’t crop up in every pile of coins. Contrary to your assertions, almost no silver lots yield 1916-D Mercury dimes. And even if they do contain some worn out Barber coinage or the like, it’s usually not worth it to pull out coins and try to sell them as singles.
As for the sets of circulated coins that people collect, the value is pegged by the price of silver plus what key date coins they might have are worth. Sure there might be VF dime in a Mercury set that cats for a buck or two, and the seller only gets 35 cents for it. But by the time the dealer puts the coin in a holder offers it for sale, it’s taken a dollar’s worth of effort to sell it, and it might take months to sell it.
If you really think that all of us are crooks, why are you still in this hobby? Successful clubs and other numismatic organizations know that this hobby depends upon the both the study of coins and the merchandising of them. Clubs that fail to recognize that, which take anti dealer attitudes like yours, usually end up failing. How do I know that? I’ve seen it first hand.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
>>>No one should go through life ignorant. Ignorant people get chewed up and spit out in this world. It's a fact, a sad fact, but still a fact...If you have coins to sell, educate yourself. If you are buying a home, educate yourself. If you have a legal problem, yes, you too can educate yourself. With the advent of the Internet, most legal information is free and on the Internet for all to research. Find a friend that can help if for some reason you can't help yourself...Ignorance and laziness are detestable.
I agree with this FrattLaw. The sad truth is that there are many people in this world who would rather spend their time trying to convince others that they're always are getting screwed by someone rather than taking some of that "whine-time" to educate themselves. I think it's called the victim mentality.
There isn't anything a person can't find out about thanks to the Internet. One can even find out that they've been screwed on a coin deal thanks to the Internet.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Your first one, you must be a newbie. " ................................................ Y-y-y-you mean there are m-m-more??????????? Thanks for the humor. Well said and taken. LMAO
........ In any event, would that a coin dealer COULD sign an agency agreement with a seller. I have also sold real estate (are there no depths to which this creep will not sink?) and the agency agreement also has another little goodie: a LISTING contract! Which document states that , as the seller's AGENT, I had the exclusive right to demand a commission for the sale to whichever buyer I could find in a certain period of time. (Exceptions only to those named PRIOR to signing the listing contract.) Clean? Not always. And I always offerred to appraise collections FOR A FEE. And my "appraisals" were for either "offer to purchase" or "insurance value" with each carefully explained. I'm not trying to be the white knight, but as a dealer I can guarantee that I can provide many more instances of the public trying to tap my knowledge for free or chisel in some way than there are "rips."
I still think that going to a dealer for a price is far safer than relying on someone offering "free help" in a hobby in which there are really substantial values.
I do know one thing..........in my experience, the "coin club" expert was usually the one who haunted the dealers with his stories of the real neat drubbing he just gave to someone.
Ask ANY dealer ONE question. Just ONE. "How many sellers will BUY a blue book to look up their coins?"
Agency law has nothing to do with contracts. If you have a real estate license, you must have slept through that section because what you stated is nonsense. To establish an agency relationship all that is required is someone claiming to be a professional, and someone else seeking the expertise of that professional in a business transaction. If you want to ask my wife, who IS an attorney to clarify this for you, go ahead.
I still think that going to a dealer for a price is far safer than relying on someone offering "free help" in a hobby in which there are really substantial values.
So this is your expert opinion as a dealer? Taking an estate to a dealer is a VERY bad mistake and will result in the seller getting reamed. This is a fact. Dealers as a matter of NORMAL business practice offer 10-50% of greysheet to unknowlegable people. This is also a fact. Dealers violate agency law all the time, and are subject to civil penalties if anyone had the knowlege and incentive to sue. Fact fact fact. Who am I judging here? The responses are actually quite interesting because NONE of the dealers in this discussion are coming right out and saying I'm wrong, they are only qualifying it. Please don't take offense at a few innocent facts......
I think you need to sit behind a bourse table for a while and see what it’s like to earn a living this business.
Been there, done that, don't care. I get invited to share table space all the time. As I've said on numerous occasions, no one has the right to make a living dealing in coins.
Okay, I take it back. Dealers aren't really arachnids. I just thought it was a funny response. Dealers are quite clearly mammals. Weasels I think.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Well, Iwog, since you have established that 10 to 50 percent of "bid" is an unethical offer, what discount under "bid" would be ethical?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Iwog- What exactly do you do for a living besides bi*ch and moan about other people? Do you do ANYTHING for a living, or do you just lem off your LAWYER wife? You try to come across as a know-it-all, coin genious, savior of the down trodden, hero. But to me, you are more of a wanna-be, a little knowledge goes a long way, white power, geek. You state that you are invited to work behind many dealers tables. Who in their right mind would want someone like you working behind their table? How did you become endowed with such knowledge that you think you would do a far better job appraising an estate than having it shopped around a coin show like any person with any brains would do to get the best possible offer? Please flame away, I need a good laugh.
I think it's time to leave a thread where someone who professes to hate all coin dealers and even thinks they don't deserve to earn a living turns around and says he is invited to share table space "all the time."
As what? An entree?
Gone from here. Iwog, you made your point. In fact, you made SEVERAL points.
Ahhhh......incorrect sir, I never once stated that I hate all coin dealers. If you guys knew who I really was, some of you would have a heart attack.
Anyway topstuff, next time you pick a fight with me kindly do it in PMs. I try not to get personal around here but telling people to ignore my advice when you know NOTHING about who I am is pretty ignorant.
Now go pet your cat.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Comments
<< <i>.............Maybe you need to..............Get a life.......That is.....Ken >>
Already have one and not gonna waste my time convincing you of such.
I'd love to be able to offer 80-90 cents on the dollar for material off the street. I could still resell it at a profit if I don't want to keep it.
Yet the uninformed would prefer to go to the local dealer and leave with an unneccesarily large bite taken out of their hide. One local dealer in CT has been in business over 20 years and routinely buys at 10-30% of wholesale. On signficant items like matte proof gold or better date coins, he offers less than 10% in many cases. And in many cases he has no clue what he is buying. You have a BU seated dollar for sale? That would be bought for XF money....maybe $200. As the World Turns............
roadrunner
We live in a capitalist society...thank God. If coin dealers, lawyers, pawn brokers, doctors, gun dealers and factory workers didn't server a useful purpose they wouldn't exist.
One of the burdens of living in a capitalist society is to watch your back. Watch your back when you buy a car, go to the doctor, buy a house, enroll your child in school etc. We don't have big brother watching our back...thank God.
Again, I am a coin collector...not an automobile collector. If I were to inherit an antique car; I would expect to have to invest a significant amount of time in order to maximize the value of that car if I sold it. I wouldn't reasonably expect to go to the first automobile dealership and be offered the "best" price for the car. I would expect to have to research magazines, the internet and talk to other knowledgeable folks about the car in order to maximize its value when I sold it. If a person unknowledgeable about coins were to inherit a number of them; I expect that they too would need to invest a significant amount of time in order to maximize their value.
We live in a capitalist society...thank God. If you go around expecting every person to give you a fair deal; I'm afraid you will be sorely disappointed.
Again, I assume most folks are honest until proven otherwise. But I think it was Ronald Reagan that said: "Trust, but verify."
In a capitalist society, every legal (and some non-legal) occupations serve a useful purpose or they wouldn't exist. (There are a very few that once served a useful purpose; but that purpose has expired and they are on their way out.)
I do notice that almost all dealers have a common approach:
Customer interested in buying a coin: "What're you asking on that?"
Dealer: "Oh, that's the first one of those I've had in a lomg time - they don't come around very often. "
etc, etc.
Customer interested in selling a coin: "What can you do on this?"
Dealer: "Oh, those are all over the place, really easy to find."
etc, etc.
Hear it all the time...
Mike
Edit: BTW, if I knew of a dealer gouging widows, orphans, etc. by offering $100 for $1,500 coin, I sure hope he's an ANA member becuase I'll report him in a heartbeat.
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
This would be pretty much all dealers. Taking into account overhead and cost of living, it's the only way a full time dealer can stay in business.
No one should go through life ignorant. Ignorant people get chewed up and spit out in this world. It's a fact, a sad fact, but still a fact.
If you have coins to sell, educate yourself. If you are buying a home, educate yourself. If you have a legal problem, yes, you too can educate yourself. With the advent of the Internet, most legal information is free and on the Internet for all to research. Find a friend that can help if for some reason you can't help yourself.
Visit several professionals. Most here would tell a friend to visit several dealers, seeking prices from all, before selling an estate. Well, if you don't like your first lawyer, go get another one. If you don't like your mechanic telling you that your 74 Pacer is going to need a new engine, get a second opinion.
Everyone has a choice. Exercise it. Ask friends for the name of a professional they have worked with and trust.
Ignorance and laziness are detestable.
Michael
Going to several coin dealers, can unfortunately, have the same results. There are a large percentage of coin dealers who took the coin dealers course on how to make a fast buck and feel good about it. Having said all this, I know there are some very honest and admirable coin dealers, but I honestly believe they are outnumbered by the shady, no- conscience, greedy dealers. There are no laws for offering a widow $20 for a $20,000 coin, and frankly, this is a dream scenario for a lot of coin dealers. There actually are people who do not know how to determine the value of a coin or coins, and will go to a PROFESSIONAL COIN DEALER, to find out the value, because who else would know better, than a coin dealer.
When you enter 'TRUSTY STEVE'S' coin shop, there should be a sign stating, ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK. Should be a State Law !!
If your point is that a person must know as much about coins as the dealer before entering into a sales contract, then I must conclude you're a few fries short of a happy meal.
In most industries, an expert ripping off a novice is not tolerated and the dealer/broker/lawyer who violates agency law is subject to severe criminal and civil penalties. I happen to agree with this system because some people are not willing or capable of learning the material required to match the "professional". Sadly, agency law is almost never enforced in coin transactions because the seller usually assumes he/she got a fair deal, and collectors are scarce enough that they probably never will.
In my early years of coin collecting, I discovered a 1937 3-legged buffalo in about VF condition in my late grandfather's coin collection. I knew enough about coins to know that it was valuable, but I didn't know enough about coins to authenticate it. (few people do) I took it to my local dealer (this was a mistake, taking any estate to a coin dealer is a BAD mistake) who prompty told me it was counterfeit but he would buy it with the rest of my coins for a few bucks.
So Fratt, seller beware huh? I guess your vocabulary doesn't include the word FRAUD. Luckily I was beginning to form an opinion about coin dealers at that point and shot the coin off to ANA. It was slabbed a nice VF and I sold it for about $240 I believe.
Yes, coin dealers make the large bulk of their income taking money away from widows and orphans. Sad but true.
And Iwog, it's not my "code of ethics," please see my post as to how I educated a experienced coin dealer as to 81 Type II mintmarks and saved him a ton of money. I could have ripped him off blind, but alas, he's a nice guy, and I didn't have the heart to do that.
But ignorance and laziness will come back to haunt you in life. I promise there will always be someone out there ready to part a fool and his money whatever the situtation.
And I just might be a few "freedom" fries short of a happy meal, but not because of what I posted here!
Michael
It would eliminate sooooooooo much profit.
Imagine advertising that you will give an honest TRUE VALUE of a coin collection.
A PROFESSIONAL COIN DEALER offering A PROFESSIONAL COIN APPRAISAL !!! How unique !!!
I am not bashing all coin dealers, just the ones who I know exist and feed off the unsuspecting people who place their trust in them.
Again I know a lot of very ethical and good people selling coins, but abuse is, and always has been, rampant in the buying and selling of coins.
I do take "umbrage," if you will with a few comments that I really don't understand.
Topstuf - I believe it is more often than not that people using pawnshop services DON'T have credit to mismanage and probably live under circumstances that almost compel them to need to utilize such services, which in most cases, are ... let me just say unfortunate. I don't want to malign any particular industry, other than to say, in this case, probably harms more than helps.
A couple posters have pointed out how asinine (paraphrased) it is for novice or the uneducated to expect decent treatment from a dealer. Maybe it IS naive to think one should be able to trust another, or expect the operator of a coin shop (inferred to be a professional coin dealer) to actually be a professional and fair. I just don't know why that perception is acceptable -- one SHOULD be able to expect professional and fair treatment and NOT have to expect that every single person is out to rip them off. Just to be clear, I would expect that my wife (numismatically challenged) to be able to go into a coin dealer business, and at least get a fair price for any item she would want to sell, and if she stated she was looking for the absolute best prices, the dealer would point her in the right direction. THAT should be the norm, not the exception. I realize that doesn't appear to be the norm, but it should be.
Zerbe - I THINK I detected some sarcasm in your question, but my local dealer DOES offer "appraisals" for a fee. Since I've never employed him for those services I can't assess how accurate/inaccurate they may be. Nevertheless, there is a dealer who offers the service. At least, I think that is what you were asking.
Of course, this is all from my collector and human (but not an idiot) perspective.
But now he has eliminated his oral low-ball ( sounds vulgar), offer opportunity. This is why I say you will not see many signs at coin shops offering appraisals.
In other words, when the widow asks for the coin dealers professional opinion of value, on paper, it could differ immensely from his oral appraisal.
First many collectors expect to pay “bid” or even a little less for run of mill items.
Second even if when a dealer sells a coin at “bid” that may not be his ultimate selling price. Quite often the state wants a slice in the form of sales taxes so that has to be figured into the equation.
Third, when a dealer buys a collection there are often coins in the deal that not part of his usual sales. Often times it’s best to sell these coins to other dealers, and those dealers often pay a certain percentage below “bid.”
Fourth, some coins have to be certified before they are marketable. For example I will buy genuine 1909-S-VDB cents raw, but before I will sell them, they have to be slabbed. Naturally I have to figure what it will cost me for the slab into the price I will pay for the coin.
Fifth, sometimes it takes a long time to sell some coins. A coin can sit in a dealer’s inventory for a year or more before it sells. Coins with low turnover and higher carrying costs bring lower prices.
It’s easy to call a dealer a crook because he doesn’t pull out the Gray Sheet and pay you those prices, but before you do you need to remember what YOU expect to pay for the coins you buy. And if it’s Gray Sheet “bid” then you have your answer as to why the offer is not higher.
Your first one, you must be a newbie.
I'm sure there are many people here who think I was exaggerating when I say dealers often pay 20% of greysheet. I'm not, it's common practice. Generally someone who brings in a large number of silver coins and doesn't know any better will be paid melt. Dates and mint marks will not even be discussed. Coin dealers justify this practice by saying they make almost nothing in the silver value, so the rely on key dates and rarities for their profit margin. If a 1916-D Mercury dime drops out of the cookie jar, then it's "Oh well, seller beware".
Dealers aren't going anywhere, I accept this. The only reason I'm having this conversation is someone screamed at me for telling a non-hobbiest NOT to take his coins to a dealer, and that he would be better off letting me look at them instead. Besides the legal ramifications of interfering with a potential contractual relationship, Mr. Detestable has also committed libel. Gotta love dealers..........
I had to run for the dictionary to find out that you were characterizing the people in my profession as spiders.
Before you condemn an entire group of people, I think you need to sit behind a bourse table for a while and see what it’s like to earn a living this business. Your accusation that dealers routinely rip sellers off by paying the silver price for accumulations is pretty much groundless.
Yes, if you bring in a jar of silver and have not bothered to do any research at all, chances are the jar of coins is going to get run though a counting machine, and you will be paid the silver price. Most bullion dealers don’t have the time to go though bags of silver coins because usually the search will yield nothing of numismatic value. Scare coins are expensive because there are not that many of them, period. They don’t crop up in every pile of coins. Contrary to your assertions, almost no silver lots yield 1916-D Mercury dimes. And even if they do contain some worn out Barber coinage or the like, it’s usually not worth it to pull out coins and try to sell them as singles.
As for the sets of circulated coins that people collect, the value is pegged by the price of silver plus what key date coins they might have are worth. Sure there might be VF dime in a Mercury set that cats for a buck or two, and the seller only gets 35 cents for it. But by the time the dealer puts the coin in a holder offers it for sale, it’s taken a dollar’s worth of effort to sell it, and it might take months to sell it.
If you really think that all of us are crooks, why are you still in this hobby? Successful clubs and other numismatic organizations know that this hobby depends upon the both the study of coins and the merchandising of them. Clubs that fail to recognize that, which take anti dealer attitudes like yours, usually end up failing. How do I know that? I’ve seen it first hand.
I agree with this FrattLaw. The sad truth is that there are many people in this world who would rather spend their time trying to convince others that they're always are getting screwed by someone rather than taking some of that "whine-time" to educate themselves. I think it's called the victim mentality.
There isn't anything a person can't find out about thanks to the Internet. One can even find out that they've been screwed on a coin deal thanks to the Internet.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Your first one, you must be a newbie. "
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Y-y-y-you mean there are m-m-more??????????? Thanks for the humor. Well said and taken. LMAO
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In any event, would that a coin dealer COULD sign an agency agreement with a seller. I have also sold real estate (are there no depths to which this creep will not sink?) and the agency agreement also has another little goodie: a LISTING contract! Which document states that , as the seller's AGENT, I had the exclusive right to demand a commission for the sale to whichever buyer I could find in a certain period of time. (Exceptions only to those named PRIOR to signing the listing contract.)
Clean? Not always.
And I always offerred to appraise collections FOR A FEE. And my "appraisals" were for either "offer to purchase" or "insurance value" with each carefully explained.
I'm not trying to be the white knight, but as a dealer I can guarantee that I can provide many more instances of the public trying to tap my knowledge for free or chisel in some way than there are "rips."
I still think that going to a dealer for a price is far safer than relying on someone offering "free help" in a hobby in which there are really substantial values.
I do know one thing..........in my experience, the "coin club" expert was usually the one who haunted the dealers with his stories of the real neat drubbing he just gave to someone.
Ask ANY dealer ONE question. Just ONE.
"How many sellers will BUY a blue book to look up their coins?"
I still think that going to a dealer for a price is far safer than relying on someone offering "free help" in a hobby in which there are really substantial values.
So this is your expert opinion as a dealer? Taking an estate to a dealer is a VERY bad mistake and will result in the seller getting reamed. This is a fact. Dealers as a matter of NORMAL business practice offer 10-50% of greysheet to unknowlegable people. This is also a fact. Dealers violate agency law all the time, and are subject to civil penalties if anyone had the knowlege and incentive to sue. Fact fact fact. Who am I judging here? The responses are actually quite interesting because NONE of the dealers in this discussion are coming right out and saying I'm wrong, they are only qualifying it. Please don't take offense at a few innocent facts......
I think you need to sit behind a bourse table for a while and see what it’s like to earn a living this business.
Been there, done that, don't care. I get invited to share table space all the time. As I've said on numerous occasions, no one has the right to make a living dealing in coins.
Okay, I take it back. Dealers aren't really arachnids. I just thought it was a funny response. Dealers are quite clearly mammals. Weasels I think.
As what? An entree?
Gone from here. Iwog, you made your point. In fact, you made SEVERAL points.
Anyway topstuff, next time you pick a fight with me kindly do it in PMs. I try not to get personal around here but telling people to ignore my advice when you know NOTHING about who I am is pretty ignorant.
Now go pet your cat.