I just saw a DETESTABLE post.
topstuf
Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
At least in my opinion. And I will admit that my opinion is biased.
The post was from a lawyer. He stated that taking coins to a local dealer was the WORST thing one could do.
Here is one professional demeaning another. Tarring with the same brush. Now, Mr. Lawyer also stated that he was "experienced" as he had been "in the hobby" for 20 some years. And he invited a "drop in" visit. Funny, but that seems a strange law practice where the time is so idle that there is lots of time for coin "drop ins."
I was a coin dealer. Retired now. But still dabbling.
Let me share a "lawyer" story. I was called one day by another dealer who wanted me to check my inventory for the absolute worst Morgan dollars I had. I laughed and had to ask why. He informed me that a lawyer client of his was looking to put together a complete set of genuine but awful Morgan dollars. Well, we had a good laugh. We knew what was going on. A will had mentioned a complete set of Morgan dollars to be included in the estate. Said lawyer was the deceased party's lawyer AND executor AND had the coins in possession. A "switch" was about to take place. Not a common practice, I hope.
But it does give some perspective to a post that appears to be either completely selfless or flagrantly self serving. You decide.
I had my problems as a coin dealer with sellers of estates who were ignorant of value. I always asked them if they knew coins or would trust me to give a value. Some did. Some didn't. If there was mistrust, I would ask them to get some competing bids and give me a chance to match or exceed those bids. If they did not want to do that, I would tell them that I would price (and justify via grey sheet or teletype offerings) EACH coin and ask for a decision on each piece. I was busy and I wanted to buy coins and not just give free appraisals. I figured that was a fair offer as we could go through each coin and they could stop at any time but I would consider that each coin approved was going to be sold to me. If they balked at that, I would simply decline to make an offer and leave open the option of returning to me or selling to someone else.
Personalities mesh or they don't. I bought some coins. I lost some coins.
But I don't have much respect for the "justice" of telling someone that going to a professional dealer is the WORST thing they can do. Bad coin dealers and bad lawyers both exist. A busy professional who charges for his work is a respectable person in any field.
One who professes to only want to "help" in a field of possibly substantial financial value in which he is also a "hobbyist" gives me pause to wonder.
Some crooks don't appear to be one.
The post was from a lawyer. He stated that taking coins to a local dealer was the WORST thing one could do.
Here is one professional demeaning another. Tarring with the same brush. Now, Mr. Lawyer also stated that he was "experienced" as he had been "in the hobby" for 20 some years. And he invited a "drop in" visit. Funny, but that seems a strange law practice where the time is so idle that there is lots of time for coin "drop ins."
I was a coin dealer. Retired now. But still dabbling.
Let me share a "lawyer" story. I was called one day by another dealer who wanted me to check my inventory for the absolute worst Morgan dollars I had. I laughed and had to ask why. He informed me that a lawyer client of his was looking to put together a complete set of genuine but awful Morgan dollars. Well, we had a good laugh. We knew what was going on. A will had mentioned a complete set of Morgan dollars to be included in the estate. Said lawyer was the deceased party's lawyer AND executor AND had the coins in possession. A "switch" was about to take place. Not a common practice, I hope.
But it does give some perspective to a post that appears to be either completely selfless or flagrantly self serving. You decide.
I had my problems as a coin dealer with sellers of estates who were ignorant of value. I always asked them if they knew coins or would trust me to give a value. Some did. Some didn't. If there was mistrust, I would ask them to get some competing bids and give me a chance to match or exceed those bids. If they did not want to do that, I would tell them that I would price (and justify via grey sheet or teletype offerings) EACH coin and ask for a decision on each piece. I was busy and I wanted to buy coins and not just give free appraisals. I figured that was a fair offer as we could go through each coin and they could stop at any time but I would consider that each coin approved was going to be sold to me. If they balked at that, I would simply decline to make an offer and leave open the option of returning to me or selling to someone else.
Personalities mesh or they don't. I bought some coins. I lost some coins.
But I don't have much respect for the "justice" of telling someone that going to a professional dealer is the WORST thing they can do. Bad coin dealers and bad lawyers both exist. A busy professional who charges for his work is a respectable person in any field.
One who professes to only want to "help" in a field of possibly substantial financial value in which he is also a "hobbyist" gives me pause to wonder.
Some crooks don't appear to be one.
0
Comments
I've been around the block a few times. I've met literally thousands of dealers. I can count on one hand those that I totally trust. Same thing goes for lawyers.
<< <i>Said lawyer was the deceased party's lawyer AND executor AND had the coins in possession. A "switch" was about to take place. >>
There are lawyers who would rip off a dead person's family? I'm shocked.
Russ, NCNE
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
MadMonk: Here's a test I used when I was a "collector."
a. Buy a coin........any coin......from dealer A. sell it to dealer B.
b. Make decision.
It's also VERY interesting to see which "estate" seller will actually PURCHASE a Whitman Blue Book.
"What? Buy a BOOK? Just to sell 27,000 pounds of coins?" heh heh
I think that's part of the bar exam. they have to show up with a dead guy's watch and wallet for a passing grade. bonus points for his gold fillings.
Bad people:
1. Lawyers
2. Doctors
3. Auto mechanics
Coin dealers in general have not made my list yet.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
<< <i>There are lawyers who would rip off a dead person's family? I'm shocked.
I think that's part of the bar exam. they have to show up with a dead guy's watch and wallet for a passing grade. bonus points for his gold fillings.
Bad people:
1. Lawyers
2. Doctors
3. Auto mechanics
Coin dealers in general have not made my list yet. >>
You forgot Insurance adjustors!
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Several have the balls to put doctors on the list of "bad people". I say move them to the top of the list.
Doctors are so revered in our society it is laughable. They are the root cause of outrageous medical cost / insurance today. The tricks they play especially with Medicare patients is abominal.
What is dangerous is people give doctors carte blanche to almost anything. They may know medicine but 99% of the doctors I know , and I know many, are brain dead when it comes to other things.
Trust your doctor as much as you trust your auto mechanic and don't be intimidated!
<< <i>This thread is pointless. >>
What's your point?
Russ, NCNE
ROTFLMAO!!! i had to pull out the ol' dictionary cause i thought you were meaning to say "abominable" but wasn't sure. the topic being doctors, you may have meant to say "The tricks they play especially with Medicare patients is abdominal."
all that humor aside, do y'all really think it's fair to assassinate a whole group due to the actions of a few members of that group??
that's kinda like saying all SBA's suck.
al h.
although i'll never understand why doctors are so richly rewarded for memorizing textbooks.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
A person new to Numismatics who takes an old coin collection to a local dealer will get fleeced every time. No exceptions. If you don't like my opinion, then too bad. Most coin dealers think that 25% of greysheet bid is a fair asking price as long as the seller doesn't know the true value. This isn't speculation or flaming, this is a fact. This is reality.
I am not a coin dealer. (I'm not a lawyer either, I co-own a law firm with my wife) In fact, I despise most dealers as a not-so-necessary evil. This person needs to come see me because I know all of the Sacramento coin dealers and I know what kind of "deal" he will get if he picks the wrong one. This is knowlege my friend, not guesswork.
By the way, if you're going to libel me out of jealousy and a TOTAL lack of knowlege of my personal ethics then please stop playing word games and do it. Saying Some crooks don't appear to be one. as if you're imparting some general wisdom instead of directing an attack is cowardly. Besides, if you had any idea of what actionable defamation consists of, you would know that such childishness doesn't protect you.
But since you only included that slice of information, my response is that I agree with the Lawyer. In general, I assume "the lawyer", was referring to somebody with very little knowledge of coins.
Many years ago I fit that category, and after vistiting several well known coin dealers in Boston to sell coins, here is the exact procedure at each shop.
I present and offer coins for sale.
Coin Dealer says "HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT"
I say, "HOW MUCH ARE THEY WORTH" ?
Coin dealer says "THEY ARE ONLY WORTH (LOW BALL FIGURE) to me.
And this was before third party grading, so you can only imagine the low, "dealer grade", these guys were assigning my coins.
In my first attempt to sell my coins, 40 yrs ago, this was the exact occurence at 4 large coin dealers in Boston.
So taking the sentence out of context, as you have, I agree with the Lawyer. I have given facts , not general accusations, and I hope the Lawyer, if it is who I think it is, reads your post, because his answer will be very entertaining as he most always is.
.............Maybe you need to..............Get a life.......That is.....Ken
<< <i>Topstuf, you have taken a sentence out of context and it is not fair to the Lawyer/poster. >>
Zerbe,
Read Iwog's post above yours. The sentence is now in context and Topstuf's post is spot on. The assertion that it's "fact" (Iwog's own word), that if one sells to a dealer they "will get fleeced every time" (again, his own words) is patently ridiculous. There are honest dealers, just like there are dishonest dealers.
Russ, NCNE
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience.
You stated that the following exchange took place:
"Coin Dealers says "HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT"
I say, "HOW MUCH ARE THEY WORTH" ?
Coin dealer says "THEY ARE ONLY WORTH (LOW BALL FIGURE) to me. "
I consider the first question to be logical as the dealer doesn't know you from Adam.
I can tell a dealer how much I want. I am experienced and expert in my knowledge of coins.
Your reply was also logical. That's why I stated how I used to deal with that question. Were any of my practices anything you would have objected to? If so, why? It would be of interest to every dealer to know what you wanted them to say or do.
I have my doubts about the third statement that a dealer would say they are ONLY worth X.
The word ONLY is going to give a customer a negative impression and would not be conducive to making the deal. If the coins were very common and not of precious metal content, then I would agree that they may have said ONLY because such coins are something that they don't really want or need.
I used to tell people on the phone who called which coins they did NOT have in their books. They were amazed. But the simple truth is that most people with coin accumulations (not collections) have tons of common junk.
God....do I know that! When I retired and sold off the stuff from the back room that I had actually paid MONEY for, I was amazed, stunned, and chagrined that I had tied up that much money in ....stuff.
The local dealers who have been in the business for years and years may or may not have been fair to everyone, but if they lasted and prospered, it wasn't JUST from stealing coins. There aren't enough GOOD coins sitting in forgotten attics to make a living by screwing everyone.
It amazes me that people with coins to sell don't do the simple things they do when they sell a house or a car. Read classified ads and interview RE agents.
The sad thing is that coin dealers can't be simple BROKERS who get a good COMMISSION just for finding the highest buyer. There's something about ....coins....that gets the CHEAP gene all activated.
Oughtta be a pill.
Nothing I said was ridiculous. "How much do you want for it?" always translates into "How much do you know about the coin you're going to sell so I can gauge how little I need to pay for it?"
You don't agree? Fine......would you say that I'm 99% correct and 1% of dealers are fair? How about I'm 95% right and 5% of dealers are fair? I'm willing to negotiate here since I don't want to make any unsupportable blanket assertions.........
A successful full time coin dealer MUST buy large collections and estates at HUGE discounts to survive. As many times as I've brought up this point on the boards, it has never been directly contradicted by a coin dealer.
There is another dealer in my area who doesn't hesitate to try and screw neophyte sellers.
Thus, it is a FACT that 50% of dealers are honest and 50% are slimebags.
Russ, NCNE
Baseball, way to go baby!!! <the crowd goes wild> Another home run.
<< <i>2 dealers isn't a statistically significant sample. >>
You think?
Russ, NCNE
Some coins I bought, but most I inherited. I was only in my teens and needed the money to buy a car. I was hoping that a COIN DEaLER would have a fair and legitamit offer to make to me, but, the norm was for the dealer to ask you what you wanted for the coins. If you could not come up with a price, then you were fair game. The lowest posssible offer would be made by the coin dealer, and it was up to you to sell or not. The coin dealer knew exactly what the coins value was, but would not tell the seller, and therefore the coin dealer made a "STEAL". In my experience back then, I found this to be common practice, and it was extremely rare to find a coin dealer who would tell you the true value of coins and make you an honest offer.
This is all contingent on the coin seller being inexperienced and the coin dealer being experienced, but unwilling to offer a fair, honest offer and still making a profit.
I suppose no laws were broken and 'business is business'.
But in the end I find it rewarding that one of those same dealers from 40 years ago is still in business, in the same location. I now have coins worth over two million dollars, but did I buy a single coin from this Boston dealer ?? NO, NO, NO !!! Will I ever buy from him ??
NO, NO, NO !!! By the way, all the other dealers with the low ball offers have gone out of business. I wonder why....................
Just to clarify. I am talking about a dealer who has just figured out you do not know the true value of the coins being offered for sale.
For example, a coin the dealer could sell any day, all week for $200,
he offers you $12. Is this fair, or do we call it business as usual at your local honest coin dealer ???
P.S. Thanks for helping me confirm what most renegade insiders already know. <g>
The truth is that whether a person is a dealer or not isn't the only thing that is important.
adrian
The big difference that I see is that lawyers, doctors and car mechanics by and large provide a service that most people cannot perform for themselves. With the advent of eBay and even the Buy/Sell/Trade forum, people have an alternative to taking whatever a local dealer is willing to offer. And 1956 Quarter is absolutely right that any fiduciary (bank, estate attorney, whoever) has a duty on any significant coin holdings to at least investigate the auction route over sales to a local dealer.
I hate saying this because if coin dealers can't make a living, they will disappear and that would be a bad, bad thing. I could be wrong but I think it's happening already. My point (and I do have one) is that this tension between buyer interests and seller interests is just part of the game. People who are unethical or greedy exist on both sides, and always have, and always will.
Prior to retirement, I added a pawn license to my menu.
Oh jeez........car dealers, doctors, coin dealers, lawyers, presidents and PAWNBROKERS.
Someone clean the gutters, please.
Anyhow, credit crazy Americans who refuse to manage their money and pawn stuff provided about 80% of our income and I guess allowed me to try to do the coins very legit as I had more profitable fish to fry. In fact, I didn't do much coin bizz at all because I wouldn't wink at the sales tax laws. Nor would I neglect to file 1099's or fill out 1083's. Too much danger of losing that license for a couple bucks.
We had contractors coming in on Fridays to pawn company vehicles to make payroll.
We had a guy from the "best part of town" with $43,000 on his VISA and he was tapped out.
And ............ebay.............is doing the coins now. Which fact even MORE says that people should do some research before selling coins. Or anything.
In fact, ebay is doing a lot of things now. Including providing pawn shops with somewhere to sell all the junk.
Drawing a parallel to the real estate market: A coin dealer acts as a bank, an appraiser, a broker, a buyers agent, and a sellers agent. It is absolutely INCREDIBLE that such a circumstance is allowed, and the conflicts of interest that occur have to be experienced first hand to be believed. It's not an exaggeration that in any large estate transaction, there are a dozen ways to sue the dealer if only the seller had more knowelge on the subject.
so either the coin dealer steals half your money or the lawyer steals half. tough choice.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
your post of a "coin dealer" definition and cynical opinion of them as a whole sure sounds like it's borne of bad expriences and resentment. perhaps it would be enlightening for you to share with us your impression of where you would be as a collector/numismatist if it weren't for coin dealers, kinda like if they never existed in the first place. it's probably not an exaggeration to say that you and most of the rest of us would be sending letters to the mint asking about release dates and going to the bank for rolls of coins to search through.
while some may view dealers as a necessary evil, i view them as necessary. even if every dealer fell off the planet immediately, what they have done as a whole to enhance the hobby is worth all the negative that's been leveled against collectors by unscrupulous businessmen. unscrupulous dealers!!
al h.
Ahhh.... At least you are now being honest with your agenda.
I can't count how many times I've been yelled at after telling someone the no date Buffalo Nickel that their great grandfather passed down is worth 5 to 7 cents and that I really don't want it. The same goes for all those "silver" 1943 Lincoln Cents that must be worth a fortune because they're not copper or the worn AG Morgan Dollars that must be worth a lot just because they're old.
What never ceases to amaze me is how people who would think nothing of buying a car magazine before trading in an old car won't buy a $10 book when liquidating a large coin collection.
I work in coins, and, yes, I try very hard to live a life where I can look at myself in the mirror without cringing.
You bought this coin in the parking lot behind Wal Mart.
Well, that's great. You saved a lot of money.
Thank God you didn't use a coin dealer.
This is the nicest 1804 lead dollar I have ever seen.
How much do you want for it?
I can only use it for a fishing sinker so I can't pay you much.
Have you tried eBay?
Oh. You have more? And you wish to bring them in for me to authenticate and appraise each one.
Uh-huh, I see.
Oh, sir, I would not like to be in the position of coming between you and a purchaser.
It would be like kidnapping and you might sue me.
How about if you just went back to Wal Mart's parking lot where you got them?
You don't feel safe about it?
My my.
As a dealer, I have a RIGHT to sell coins at a markup.
As a dealer, I have a RIGHT to buy coins at a large discount.
As a dealer, I have the RIGHT to insist that the buyer/seller beware, and using my knowledge to take advantage of an uninformed client (who is probably seeking my expertise) is perfectly okay.
As a dealer, I am the member of an exclusive club that has special rules and privileges, and collectors should not be allowed into this inner circle.
Are they necessary? No. The classic car market has functioned VERY well without dealers involved for most transactions. Parts are exchanged at swap meets and through Hemmings Motor News between interested parties. I see no reason why the coin hobby can't operate this way.
cdmead, I have no hidden agenda. Everyone has known most of my positions for years.
Yes some people are unreasonable about their coins. Tis the price of doing business. YOU are the one putting out the blanket offer to buy, YOU are the one soliciting sales in the yellow pages. All most sellers want is an honest appraisal. Instead what they get is "How much do you want for it?".
<< <i>LOL Max, agree 100%. i will still have to leave Lawyers as #1 though, only because Doctors and Auto mechanics AT LEAST provide a service and contribute to society.
although i'll never understand why doctors are so richly rewarded for memorizing textbooks. >>
And what planet-altering job do you do, Mr. Barracuda?
I went to see a lawyer.
All I wanted to know was if I would win the case.
I was willing to tell him all of MY side of the case.
He wanted a RETAINER fee.
Wouldn't even tell me if I would win!
What kinda deal is that?
I walked out.
Went to the butcher shop.
They had a standing rib roast. A HUGE one. Marked $7.99 a pound.
I said I'd take it.
He wanted to WEIGH it.
I told him that the hunk looked to be about a pound and I was very knowledgeable about it.
He still said I couldn't have it unless he weighed it.
What kinda deal is that?
So I decided to go to San Francisco where it would be more sophisticated and genteel.
Whaddya think I found?
A damn TOLL BRIDGE!
A guy with a gun said I couldn't cross unless I paid him MONEY?
What kinda deal is that?
I drove around the peninsula through San Jose (stopped at the Santa Clara show and tried to wheedle some crummy coin dealers) and got to Frisco without paying that TOLL!
I saved a lot of money.
Cameron Kiefer
When I had the shop, I was open from 10-5.
Now.......retired...........whew......every day ALL day. oof.
24/7 !!
Walk the dog. Go shootin. Visit friends. Read books. Buy coins. Drink beer. Sit in da sun.
.............ALL DAY LONG...............
It's tuff out there.
i don't exploit others lack of knowledge in my field and/or lobby congress to pass laws favoring myself.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Is there something wrong with that? Oh, yeah, there must be. I am also on Barracuda's Top 3 worthless parasites of society list (or some such list), so I obviously do not know which end is up.
who cares?
mr anchor
assure me
that bagdhad
is burning
your voice it is so soothing
that cunning mantra of killing
i can see beyond the horizon because i stand on the shoulders of giants...............
al h.
as far as coin dealers go, i'm willing to pay a premium to any shop owner who can educate me, entertain me, or enlighten me. i make nearly all my coin purchases from my dealer even though most of the time i know i could gamble on getting it cheaper over the internet.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
The people who are the true victims are often widows, generally have no knowlege of coins at all, and never knew they were taken for thousands of dollars. You will never hear from these people because they went to a "professional" for assistance, and have no reason to doubt they were treated fairly.
Does this clarify matters?