Whay can't PCGS make a holder that allows you to see the edge?

Singapore

I think the current PCGS holders are less than ideal for 2 reasons:

You can't see the edge of the coin to verify if its lettered or reeded or whatever.

You can't clearly see the rim, which is even more of a problem. I've seen a fair number of raw coins with edge dings or minor damage end up in holders where the problems are hidden and suddenly the 'value' is much higher.

I'm not a mechanical engineer or an industrial designer (I can't cook either but thats OT for now), but I have to believe its possible to make a holder that allows you to see the whole coin more clearly.

AbesNeighbor

I agree that it would be better if we could see all dimensions of the coin. However, one of the reasons, I believe, that PCGS graded coins demand a premium is because of its standards of not grading "Rim Damaged" Coins as well as other problems. Other grading companies will overlook some of these items and also hide the rims in their holders so you really can't tell.

The bottom line is that PCGS spells out its standards and grades accordingly. We buy them in those holders with quite a bit of "Faith" that they are following those standards.

dorkkarl

pcgs most certainly will grade "rim damaged" coins. my buddy bought a pcgs vg-8 chain cent that appeared well undergraded, after removal from the holder, it showed no fewer than 8 significant rim dings, virtually invisible in the holder. eac would have deducted at least 1/2 grade for this damage

problem is obviously that once you remove it from the holder, & the damage becomes evident, the guarantee is null & void. this is why pcgs should mention such problems when a coin is net-graded

however, the coin had choice surfaces, so all in all, not a horrible deal.

i have also bought 1 bust half in a pcgs slab that had a severe knife cut at the rim that was absoultely invisible, because it was parallel to the surfaces, since it sliced directly into the edge of the coin, ie. kind of like a "split planchet" sort of thing. it was not mint-made, & worst of all, the grade was apparently NOT netted down.

i suppose the bust half example could have been merely a "mistake", but i think the chain cent was definitely knowingly holdered w/ rim damage.

K S

AbesNeighbor

Dorkkarl,

I've never opened/cracked a plastic case from any grading company. I have had coins bodybagged for rim damage...mostly MS coins, though.

If they grade them then I agree with you that they should, as does ANACS, note the damage on the insert. They claim in their advertisement that they will reject coins with rim damage.



Dan

Singapore

First, let me make clear that this is not a PCGS issue as much as it is a slab issue - all of the companies slabs have the same 'problems' as it were. But I think its something that could be fixed with some tweaking of the slab.

Second, I agree 109% with dorkkarl.

I suspect this is a basically a non-issue for Morgans or moderns and things like that, but a real issue for early copper and colonials which a) sometimes come in a variety of edge variants, and 2) are seemingly more susceptible to rim damage.

I've seen many coins personally at auction with non-trivial rim dings end up in holders where the damage is invisible and it is not obvious that the grade took this into account. I can tell you, further, that there are a number of dealers who specifically and intentionally try to buy such coins raw for 'discounted' prices then have them slabbed and offer them at much higher prices as 'problem free' coins.

I can personally site examples of such coins currently viewable on the web, but I don't want to offend anyone who may have bought (or is currently trying to sell) some of these coins.

MrEureka

I rarely have a problem seeing the edge of a coin through a PCGS holder. Yes, you have to look through a thick layer of plastic, but it's not that difficult.

Singapore

Andy -

You've evidently got better eyes than I do. In fact I've seen a number of auction descriptions of PCGS slabbed coins in which the cataloger says that they cannot verify the edge lettering variant or some similar comment -

RKKay

I can't read the lettering on the edge of my PCGS slabbed J-1749. I guess I'm getting old.

Nysoto

There is a LOT OF ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT in holder design to allow viewing of lettered edges. I have cracked some just to see the edge and check for the variety of errors common on lettered edge coins. I cannot clearly read the lettered edge of coins in PCGS holders, but their clear plastic is better than the solid white of other grading services holders.

Singapore

I agree Nysoto - the white NGCs, for example, are even worse on this issue.

On a related note, someone posted in here a while ago showing a photo of a coin with an unusual edge variant for which PCGS had made a custom holder by, I guess, cutting away a small portion of the internal plastic so that 5% of the rim could be seen. So it can be done -

Gilbert

It seems to me tha only SEGS has a slab to accomodate edge-viewing. Maybe PCGS could just use a "clear transparent" plastic ring instead of the one they use.

That aside, aren't there only a few instances where the date won't definitively determine whether the coin is LE or not?

Also, I've always been baffled regarding the "rim dings." I've seen many coins with dings on the rim be encapsulated. Just how much of a ding is required before it is too damaged to be encapsulated? If you were to hypothetically move what one may consider a severe bagmark up to the rim or the coin, would that be considered a "rim ding" that renders a coin unable to be encapsulated?

Singapore

Gilbert -

In Colonials and Early Copper, at least, there are many instances of edge variants for the same date coins, and the variants differ greatly in rarity and value.

So 1) you can't tell unless you can see the edge, and 2) it can influence the price signficantly.

And I've seen some pretty heavily rim dinged coins end up in holders, so I have no idea what the 'threshhold' is.

Lakesammman

Heres a clever solution. Link Picture taken by Shylock. Look at the last coin on this page. Made by cutting away a portion of the inner insert. If you think about it, only 3 small contact points are needed to hold the coin inplace. Doesn't seem like it would be all that hard to modify the current inserts to allow this. Shouldn't cost much, especailly if your buying by the thousands. Only limiting factor is collector demand.

lordmarcovan

Gilbert, SEGS doesn't have an edge-visible slab, either (at least, not to my most recent knowledge, which is admittedly not totally up to date.)

DCGS does, though. Yeah, that's right- DCGS. Digital Coin Grading Service. Hahaha.

LINK

Gradewise, they're probably about as respected a service as NTC or A......no, I won't say that. I don't really know anything about them.

I find the edge-visible, stand-up holder intriguing, though. A good idea. As a matter of fact, I might even submit an 1827 Bust half I've had since I was a kid. Technically, it's a problem coin, but it's sentimental to me, and it would be nice to have it in a stand-up holder that would show the lettered edge.

kieferscoins

<< <i> find the edge-visible, stand-up holder intriguing, though. A good idea. As a matter of fact, I might even submit an 1827 Bust half I've had since I was a kid >>



I have one for my slab collection and it is a pain. Big slab with a stand and it won't fit anywhere. Even inside a box, the stand sticks up and makes all the other types of slabs crooked. It would be good for on a desk, but you can't put your whole collection out like that.

Cameron Kiefer

Conder101

As pointed out DCGS slabs are designed to have the edge visible. Two other companies have produced slabs that allowed the edge of the coin to be viewed, Compugrade and MCGC. So three companies have been able to do it, why not the major services?

ms70

Gilbert

LM

You are so right. I was thinking (pardon me ) of that top visible label unique to SEGS, however, my brain processed it as "edge" visible. My apologies!

DCGS, well I guess I won't have eny edge visible slabs.

Conder101

The top visible label is NOT unique to SEGS. It was pioneered seven years before SEGS by Compugrade.

BillJones

First there are some PCGS holders where the edge is visible enough to attribute the variety. As I noted earlier I once found a rare edge variety of a PCGS graded colonial coin that I sold for a premium.

Second, these holders do scratch very easily. The DCGS holder that was shown ealier looks like it would be very prone scratching, especially given the ways that many dealers handle them.

Conder101

Scratching isn't the real headache with DCGS slabs, stacking is. You can't stack slabs that contain different denominations. And even when stacking slab that have the same denomination you have to rotate every other one 180 degrees or else the feet on the slabs interfere with each other. So each slab has to be oriented and stacked individually. And of course if you handle them too roughly you risk breaking off the slabs feet.

lordmarcovan

I think the DCGS slab should have detachable feet so one has the option of standing it or putting it in a box.



<< <i>I have one for my slab collection and it is a pain. Big slab with a stand and it won't fit anywhere. Even inside a box, the stand sticks up and makes all the other types of slabs crooked. It would be good for on a desk, but you can't put your whole collection out like that. >>



There are only two coins I would want in DCGS holders, and they would be displayed on a shelf. (Precisely the reason I'd like them in that kind of holder- I couldn't care less about the grade, as the coins are sentimental ones. The Bust half is one of them. Having the lettered edge visible would be a plus.)

BillJones

I've found that scratching is a big problem with PCSG hoders because of the convex shape of the slab windows. Unfortunaely almost all dealers jam the slabs into boxes where slab to slab contact makes the situation worse. NGC and ANACS holders scratch too, but the surfaces are flat, and they do get some protection from the raised rims around the slab.