MS66 vs. MS67: Are differences in price of $1000+ justified?

dan1ecu

I, not being an expert grader, can not see a difference between an MS66 piece and an MS67 piece in a given series. I’m guessing that even the professional graders sometimes disagree on whether or not a coin deserves an MS67 grade. It seems to me that at that level of preservation, there are very few marks on the coin, and so a determination has to me made based on the overall look of the coin (luster, strike, nature of the toning?). Very subjective.

I would think that an MS66 for $200 would be a better deal than an MS67 for $2000, unless I were trying to put together a registry set. What do you think? Is there enough of a difference between the two grades to warrant spending so much more for the higher grade?

Dan

coinguy1

Dan,

I think that determination is a personal one that is best decided by each collector, depending upon his or her budget and taste.

I certainly agree that in many cases the difference between two grades is extremely minimal, if not outright subjective and the difference in price can be dramatic. In your example, you mentioned a $1000 price differential. In some cases there is a much smaller or much greater one.

I usually advise my clients to buy what they really like AND can comfortably afford. If they are perfectly happy with an MS or PF66, rather than an MS or PR67, and buying the lower grade example will allow them to purchase an additional coin or two they couldn't otherwise afford, then, by all means, go for the 66.

paigowjohnny

I personally am real happy with my 63s...but then I'm not a registry player.

When you're getting into the ether of 66/67...you're splitting a mighty fine blond hair.

tjkillian

How can anyone say that a MS-63 is not a registry quality (I hate that term)? If you have a MS-63 Seated Half or a Bust dollar, you could easily have the finest known. To me, registry is what you make of it.

By the way, I like to buy just before the dramatic rise in price, regardless of the grade.

Tom

mdwoods

Strictly a personal decision. Although, in some coin series the difference between a 66 and 67 is noticeable. 67 may be the highest grade given for an entire series. mdwoods

Baley

I agree with what's been said so far, as well as the original point of the first post in the thread.

Will just add that depending on the age and rarity of the coin, the "better deal" might be MS61 or AU58, EF45 or 40 or VF-25 or 30 or even Good-6, in the case of pre-1800 US coins. Of course, it all depends on the preferences of the collector, and the price structure for the coin in the various grades but I wholeheartedly agree with your premise, obviously, because some of my early to middle type gold such as the Classic head $2 1/5 and $5, and no motto $10, are in AU50, EF40, and EF45, respectively.

Sure I would like to get mint state examples someday, but until then, some of the best "values" are a little lower on the grading/pricing curve.

Lakesammman

Here's a example of a MS66R IHC on the left, a 67R on the right.

It's hard to illustrate with a picture because both are nice. But if you look closely, the details on the 67 are more fully defined (feathers, hair behind ribbon/diamonds, etc), the planchet much finer (earlier die state, no flow lines, flawless planchet) and the luster is awesome. The difference in person is much greater.

It gets harder when comparing a great 66 with a so-so 67 - that's when "upgrading" makes no sense. I've been offered some 67's and for the most part I've been happy to stick with my 65 or 66.

Regarding prices in the IHC series, the common dates are $1600 in 66R, $10,000 in 67R. For that price jump, you better like the 67 alot!!

dan1ecu

I appreciate the comments --

I think that looking for the big jump in price, and buying the lower, much less expensive grade makes sense. In that case, I would think that the lower grade has more upward potential than the higher grade.

Dan

MrEureka

First, and most importantly, do NOT pay for an extra grade point unless YOU can see the difference between it and the next lowest grade.

Second, if you're planning to collect a series over the long term, do not pay for an extra grade point unless you believe the premium over the next lowest grade will hold in the long term. Ignore the urge to compete with the many registry collectors who tend to build and sell their collections over shorter time periods.

On the other hand, if you're planning to buy and quickly sell, understand that you're just speculating and keep your fingers crossed.

Lakesammman

Can't argue with anything said so far....with the exception of Registry set owners collecting short term. Is there any data to back that up??

coinguy1

Excellent advice from Mr. Eureka!

Elcontador

Agree w Mr. Eureka!

I've found that with some series of coins, I can usually distinguish the difference between a 5 & 6 (ie., Walkers and Seated Dimes), and with some others, I think it depends on what sort of day the grader is having (like SLQs).

The pricing between 6s & 7s becomes astronomical re FH SLQs and with a number of specific dated Walkers.

Lakesamman, your IHC in RD 7 (on the right) is beautiful! You know IHCs better than I do, but to me, the one on the left looks like a mid-range 5. My RD 5 has more feather details than that one (but it also probably has more contact marks on its reverse than yours does).

wondercoin

Dan: It really depends upon the coin. Assuming the quality is there, a $10,000 or even $15,000 jump may not only be appropriate but A BARGAIN. Example, 1934(d) Wash Quarter in PCGS-MS66 vs. MS67. Sell me a properly graded MS67 and I suspect I would be comfortable with that sort of price jump.

And, of course, a 1932(s) Quarter in PCGS-MS65 vs. MS66 can mean a possible $20,000 price jump as well. Myriad examples exist of fine value existing for the 1 point grade jump. Wondercoin

jeffnpcb

The only question that comes to mind, via all the slamming on grading companies in these forums, who do you TRUST! Me, none of them because the grades can change at the blink of an eye and so can the value trend!
Toned coins are a perfect example and population reports with no valid proof of how many are still out there not graded! Crossover rates aren't adjusted from one company to another or are their grading principles the same!

Go ahead and pay what you will, a MS64 could be a MS66 tomorrow!!

MrEureka

Can't argue with anything said so far....with the exception of Registry set owners collecting short term. Is there any data to back that up??

I have no data. My comment was based on the frequency with which I see registry sets offered at auction.

MrEureka

Go ahead and pay what you will, a MS64 could be a MS66 tomorrow!!

All the more reason to not buy a coin unless you can "see" the coin well enough to have your own opinion as to the grade.

dorkkarl

simple answer to your question: buy the 1 that YOU LIKE.

K S

wondercoin

"My comment was based on the frequency with which I see registry sets offered at auction. "

Andy: In many cases, it is the Registry sets you do not see at auction that really matter Wondercoin

jom

I agree with Mr. Eureka and Karl.

To relate to Eureka's point: You need to look at as many different coins in the series you like before you get an idea of what the differences are in grade. In virtually EVERY series I've done this with I've found the price jumps (if there is one) usually doesn't merit. But this is a statement based on average. It varies from coin to coin.

To relate to what Karl said: What I think people should be doing is instead of consentrating on "should I buy a 66 or 67?" they should be concentrating on "should I buy this COIN or that COIN?".

jom

MrEureka

The more coins you look at, the easier it is to justify the price jump. That's because you need to look at a lot of coins to appreciate how special the special ones really are. (And conversely, you need to look at a lot of coins to know that most high grade low pop coins aren't all that special!)

relayer

only if they are 1000 times rarer

michael

for me show me a specific coin within my speciality
that i have studied
and have seen many examples
and then i can tell you!!!!!!!!!!!!

sometimes yes!! even if the jump is super great even lots more than 1000++++++ and sometimes not

it depends on lots of factors

the look of the coin the value etc.

it all depends on the specific coin SIGHT SEEN IN PERSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sincerely michael

Baley

this thread might be on-topic, or at least of related interest:

Text

Lakesammman

Like Michael says, it depends on the series.

There are about 75 MS67 IHC's compared with 7800 Roosevelts and over 6000 Lincolns.

You bet I would be more hesitant to pay a premium for the later, especially knowing there are many rolls out there yet to be certified. I would pay 10K for a properly graded MS67R IHC any day of the week.

cladking

<< <i>Like Michael says, it depends on the series.

There are about 75 MS67 IHC's compared with 7800 Roosevelts and over 6000 Lincolns.

You bet I would be more hesitant to pay a premium for the later, especially knowing there are many rolls out there yet to be certified. I would pay 10K for a properly graded MS67R IHC any day of the week. >>



Have you been collecting Lincolns and Roosevelts long? Keep in mind there are only
55 Indian Cents and there are 172 Roosevelt dimes and far more Linclon Cents. Of
course there are more. But like the Indian cents the high grade coins are far more
common in some roosevelts dates than others. There are many Lincolns and Roosys
which are quite difficult to find in rolls. Some coins are tough in high grade and some
coins are not and this applies to most all series.

Baley

I like to imagine showing my coins to my children some day ( dont have any children yet) but when I do:

"Look Baley Junior, it's a silver dollar from 1799, the year George Washington died. This coin circulated in the early days of our country, at a time when men like Jefferson and Hamilton lived. There are about 3000 of this date known, and only 1000 are finer than this one."

or

"This is a gold half eagle from 1812, you may have heard of the war named after that year. There are only 700 of these remaining, and only about 100 of those are better than this one."

and have him say, "gee dad, I've never seen one of those before!

I guess one could have a similar scenario for modern coins:

"look, it's a 1969 quarter! they made 176,212,000, while Nixon was president, about half are still in circulation, but this one: this is an MS70, the finest one known!!"

and

"look at this magnificent 1990 proof dime! no mintmark! and here is my prized 1965 silver quarter! I know it appears normal, but look: no copper stripe on the edge!"

<---- here's my winkie, and that means "just kidding"

cladking

Time has a way of changing everything. The '69 quarter is from the year man first
walked on the moon. It will have been the year of birth of one of the greatest men
of the twenty first century. The eagle reverse quarter is likely gone for good and al-
ready only about half of them remain in circulation. If they are still around in twenty
years, those remaining will be in uniformly poor shape.

Such is life.

Such is the nature of time.

Baley

no doubt about it!

MrEureka

look, it's a 1969 quarter! they made 176,212,000, while Nixon was president, about half are still in circulation, but this one: this is an MS70, the finest one known!

MrEureka

You mean, "ONCE LONG AGO, the finest one known, until another 32,000 got graded"?

BillJones

My philosophy is to look for what I call threshold grade coins. What I mean is that I look for the highest grade before the price really takes off. For 19th century coins and the “old” commemorative silver coins, that grade is quite often MS-64. For a few issues. like the Spanish Trail and York commemorative half dollars, coins in grades like MS-66 don't cost that much more, and it makes a lot of sense to buy them at that level. Those situations are unusual however.

For most collectors there conflict is between quantity and quality. Most collectors like quality coins, but they also like diverse collections with a variety of pieces in them. If extremely high quality would limit your purchases to only a few coins a year, most collectors would back off a point or two and go for more diversity. This is especially true when the difference in appearance for that one or two points is small. That’s why I think that paying thousands for something in MS or PR-69 when the same issue can be purchased in MS or PR-65 for a couple of bucks is very risky. To maintain that high price, seller interest must be sustained and the supply of those coins must remain low.

Lakesammman

I must be a liberal - I agree with everybody!

Sage advice - My coins range from EF to M67 and I only have 2 of the later.

jom

<< <i>"....I know it appears normal, but look: no copper stripe on the edge!" >>



How could they see that? It's entomed in a slab...they can't see the edge.

jom

BillJones

You can make out the edge on some PCGS graded coins. I once had a colonial coin in a PCGS holder that was rare variety because of the edge. You could note the variety, which allowed me to sell the coin at a premium.

cladking

Billjones; It is certainly true that not all coins have been graded and that the
pop one 1848 cent or 1969 quarter can become buried in more coins of the
same grade. And, yes, it's more likely for a later dated coin because these were
never collected in a systematic way, have a small demand resulting in fewer
submissions, have been slabbed for a relatively brief time, and the coins do exist
in the marketplace in mint sets if not rolls. Some people have been collecting and
studying these coins for many years.

Indeed I've been collecting them since before the grading companies were estab-
lished. When I buy a high priced modern I'm buying it for my collection. I am not
concerned with the population now or the population in ten years. With the coins I
still need I know what the pops in ten years will be anyway and can assure you
that the pop of the MS-69 '69 quarter will be zero. You might be surprised just
what such a coin might bring today slabbed or raw. This is caused by collector de-
mand and is independent of the registry, the grading companies, or any percieved
hype.

There is no more wrong with enjoying collecting moderns today than there was with
enjoying collecting large cents in 1984. Nor is there anything wrong with large cents
today or moderns in 1984.

Though collecting moderns in 1984 was an extremely lonely endeavor.




Mostly grammar and layout.

wondercoin

"look, it's a 1969 quarter! they made 176,212,000, while Nixon was president, about half are still in circulation, but this one: this is an MS70, the finest one known! "

IMHO, the "rarity" of a 1969(p) Wash quarter in true MS69 grade BLOWS AWAY the "rarity" of most R-7 pattern coins out there and probably nearly every R-6 pattern known. Few people understand the condition rarity of particular modern coins. That's fine with me -just like many astute dealers enjoyed picking up the key date Morgans in the 1970's "for a song". Wondercoin