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Anaconda: The Perils of Dealing in PCGS Early Coins
Singapore
Posts: 578
This is not directed at Anaconda specifically, though it is about his 66 1794 Large Cent. By the way I thought that was a pretty coin so this is not a slam the coin thread.
But it seems to me that this is kind of material is difficult for any dealer to handle for a few reasons; 1) its very easy to trace, 2) the total number of slabbed coins is a small percentage of the total population in existence, and 3) PCGS grades are not generally well respected in this stuff.
So that means that in order to sell this coin for $44K or whatever it is listed at, a dealer needs to find a buyer who doesn't know a great deal about them, didn't do any research, doesn't know that, in this case, it sold at Stacks in January 2002 as an MS60 in front of a roomful of knowledgeable bidders and sold for less than $22K , and believes that its the finest known 1794 Cent or something like that. I suppose its possible that a Sheldon variety collector will chase it down and want to pay that kind of dough for an S-30, but on the other hand those same people usually think PCGS is the Devil and will consider the coin a 60.
So in order to sell a coin like this for big money, don't you end up having to say 'PCGS called it a 66 and its the finest one they've handled so that ought to be good enough for you' or some other similar approach?
Somehow I'm sensing a slippery slope approaching.
But it seems to me that this is kind of material is difficult for any dealer to handle for a few reasons; 1) its very easy to trace, 2) the total number of slabbed coins is a small percentage of the total population in existence, and 3) PCGS grades are not generally well respected in this stuff.
So that means that in order to sell this coin for $44K or whatever it is listed at, a dealer needs to find a buyer who doesn't know a great deal about them, didn't do any research, doesn't know that, in this case, it sold at Stacks in January 2002 as an MS60 in front of a roomful of knowledgeable bidders and sold for less than $22K , and believes that its the finest known 1794 Cent or something like that. I suppose its possible that a Sheldon variety collector will chase it down and want to pay that kind of dough for an S-30, but on the other hand those same people usually think PCGS is the Devil and will consider the coin a 60.
So in order to sell a coin like this for big money, don't you end up having to say 'PCGS called it a 66 and its the finest one they've handled so that ought to be good enough for you' or some other similar approach?
Somehow I'm sensing a slippery slope approaching.
Singapore
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How can the same coin go from an MS60 to an MS66? in just over a year?
I seriously would like to hear the opinions.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
However, over the years, there have been MANY rare, high value items that have sold (uncertified) in public auctions and which were later graded high enough by NGC or PCGS to be "worth" much more than the selling price. There is a great deal of risk-reward at play in buying rare uncertified coins, not knowing what the final grade assigned by a major grading service, will be.
It might seem, or even be silly that an uncertified coin can sell for $20,000 in a public auction and, based on the grade it later receives, be worth $30,000 plus. But, it can work in reverse, too - the coin that sells for $20,000 might receive a grade which would make it worth only $10,000.
dwood - the MS60 grade was apparently an uncertified grading opinion by the auctioneer, which was quite conservative, based on the price the coin realized. Numerous uncertified coins realize prices which indicate that the opinions of the auctioneers are either far too conservative or much too liberal.
<< <i>not knowing what the final grade assigned by a major grading service, will be. >>
Perhaps a little OT, but in this day and age it would seem there is no such thing as a "final grade" anymore.
Clankeye
Edit: naw, actually in this case doesn't work.
Interesting thread Singapore. I enjoy eavesdropping on you guys when you talk about early coppers and grading.
Clankeye
Are you framiiar with the term "it's a gem for the date?"
For me, any coin graded above m.s. 63 that doesn't have the "look" of a mint state coin does not interest me in a 64 or better grade slab, not because the coin itself wouldn't interest me raw but because the grade given if higher than it's eye appeal indicates artifially raises the price excpectation of the seller.
I've seen many very nice eye appealing coins on this persons site that i felt were pq for the grade, but this very rare and desirable coin just doesn't seem to belong in a m.s. 66 slab. Again just my opionion. Les
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
I have seen the coin in person and it has pretty darned nice luster. Also, whether we agree with the policy or not, I believe that the major grading services use different grading standards for early coinage, which was typically not made as well as most of the more modern material.
That policy, in itself, might make for an interesting thread. For example, if the finest 1795 such and such coin in existence displays mint made "flaws" (weak strike and/or adjustment marks and or a rough planchet, etc.) should it be graded relative to other coins of its date and type, or vs. a theoretically perfect coin of that type - one that was never produced by the mint at that time? Maybe I will start a new thread on the subject.
Not really. All you need to do is honestly describe the coin and find a buyer that understands and can live with the price. It's not always an easy job, but if you're looking for easy you can always sell MS70 American Eagles for a living.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Same thing happened with Superior's sale of the Frankenfield copper collection two years ago. Many late dates that were cataloged as MS60 were bought by Martin Paul and later slabbed as MS63-65 by NGC and Teletraded. One of the nice Chains was graded VF35 in that sale, and I believe it was offered by Anaconda in a PCGS AU55 slab for nearly twice the price a few months later ($35k hammer + juice, later offered in the $60,000 range).
Rays
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I think it is accepted practice and knowledge that PCGS/NGC do not grade coins like a large cent or bust dollar using the same standards or criteria as when they assign a grade to a proof state quarter, which is 100% correct IMO. I also believe it is accepted that even certain dates within the same series will be accessed differently depending on the characteristics of a certain date and/or mintmark.
dragon
Maybe i should modify my strategy based upon your comment.
Are you saying that a person should buy early copper raw at auction? Ya, know, pay more than anyone else in the whole room for an
uncertified piece and do this coin after coin? That that person will be better off? That the wins will outweigh the losses?
Or maybe what you're saying is that a person should buy early uncertified copper from a dealer instead, of certified material?
Or maybe what you are saying is that a person should just avoid early copper...is that what you are saying?
Let's see if we can clarify the implications of your comment before i spend my valuable time addressing something you have not said.
Please don't come back and just re-state what you have already said. Please!
I think that some would disagree with us, however, regarding the application of different standards/criteria for certain coins. I have heard many say something to the effect of " I don't care if it is the best one ever made, it's only a 63, so that's how it should be graded" etc.
A dealer who has handled a Brasher Dubloon, a 1913 Liberty Cent and other $500,000+ coins bought that coin from me. And, i made money on it. FYI.
....and it brought me incredible traffic to my eBay store for the many months that i had it....people still remember that coin.
We, and auction houses etc., sell to the guy who first is willing to pay what many others have refused to pay.
People love to complain about how much i pay for and sell coins. Remember that when you go to sell your stunners. Sell your crap at auction, offer your best to someone like me.
And by the way, the focus shouldn't be on me paying 12% over bluesheet for the 1794 cent, it should be on the poor fellow who sold it raw for half of what i paid.
adrian
I want guys who sell coins to me to make money off of me. It motivates them to work for me. It gives me my weekends with my family.
What is that worth?
<< <i>"One of the nice Chains was graded VF35 in that sale, and I believe it was offered by Anaconda in a PCGS AU55 slab for nearly twice the price a few months later ($35k hammer + juice, later offered in the $60,000 range)."
A dealer who has handled a Brasher Dubloon, a 1913 Liberty Cent and other $500,000+ coins bought that coin from me. And, i made money on it. FYI.
....and it brought me incredible traffic to my eBay store for the many months that i had it....people still remember that coin. >>
I remember that coin because I went to Beverly Hills and bid on it. It was a beautiful chain. BTW, Anaconda, I am not disparaging your selling that coin. If you can sell your coins for the levels you ask, more power to you. This gets to the heart of Singapore's post. Each tranaction is a two way street, no-one forces anyone to buy.
I am no longer let down, as Dog97 never let's me down.
what I don't understand is how you guys, whom I consider "big boys" (that's a compliment), get so hung up on the number on the slab.
$hit, I'm a pebble in the grand shceme of things, and were I in the market for such a coin, that number would be insignificant. If the argument became I want XX dollars because it is graded XX, then my argument would be, if you want those dollars from me, then this coin had better stand head and shoulders from any currently graded lower.
On another note, I think the ease of tracing a coin's history would make it easier to market.
Lastly, if I feel that the current owner simply put too much money in the coin, well, I cannot help that -- I am a collector, not an investment guaranteed to return you a profit. You get from me what its value is to me.
I viewed this particular 1794 cent at LB. I liked it very much. It is very lustrous. The assigned grade is irrelevant - the value [quality vs the price] is what's important.
About a year ago, I was trying to decide whether to make an offer on J Kerns's MS65 chain cent. I knew the coin had been upgraded from a 64 and I knew what they had paid for the coin. I finally decided to not make an offer. The coin sold a few weeks later and not a month goes by without me kicking myself. So perhaps I should have ignored the price paid by the dealer and the original assigned grade and instead have focused on the amazing quality of the coin?!?!
different categories of collectors on this board:
1. people who follow blue/greysheets and will not pay much more than these levels for coins. These people usually do not have the coins that jump out and say "Look at this spectacual coin" but they might have a few. They will usually own middle of the road collections for the most part. These collections come mainly from Ebay and lower to middle of the road coin shops.
2. people who will pay strong money in reguards to blue/greysheets for nice eye appealling coins. These collectors have a little more disposable income and higher end collections. Most coins come from auctions and higher end retailers. These are your higher end collections.
3. people who don't care about price in reguards to any sheet levels. These collectors have just as much disposable income as they want to spend. Their collections come from high end auctions and high end dealers. These are the highest end of collections.
So what category do you think you fall into? There are different dealers who specialize in the above areas and which do you buy from?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I want guys who sell coins to me to make money off of me. It motivates them to work for me. It gives me my weekends with my family. - Anaconda
Priceless and miles above how most of us think.
specialized collector base. Boy I feel let down."
For me, it's not difficult to market. You just put it up on eBay. And if it sells, cool. If not, then i'm like the collector who owns something
interesting that i'm not making money on.
I originally started selling coins to simply try and make my collection or portfolio, or whatever you want to call it, generate some money.
I'm not your typical dealer who buys everything with the anticipation of selling it within 2 weeks for whatever i can get for it and blowing
it out shortly thereafter if it doesn't sell.
Also, i think i have had coins that sold to people who weren't necessarily part of the narrow and specialized collector base. Many people
have said in essence "you got me into ____________, before that i wasn't interested in those."
Everyone who becomes specialized in something has to buy their first coin in that series.....sometimes it's from me.
Also, i learned a great deal about selling coins by fishing. Casting to different areas of the lake, varying your retrieve, using different lures, going to different lakes, and freqently wetting your line is most productive.
I like early copper. It's hard to buy inexpensively. I like PCGS' grading...it's not the same as EAC grading. (If EAC backed up what they claim,
they would buy conservatively graded pieces cheaply from other EAC members, get them slabbed and sell them at bluesheet to guys like me. They don't)
Dog....is that more along the lines of what you were anticipating?
adrian
PS Hey, DesertLizard.....thanks. I appreciate you.
they've never seen raw, may never see raw, and have no hope of ever owning!!!
True, true, true.
"Hey, I've found this new cool hobby. it's called let's pick on Adrian. He's an easy mark."
investment guaranteed to return you a profit. You get from me what its value is to me. "
True. When a dealer drags his inventory off to a coin show and he sells 10% of what he brought (most would consider that a good show),
does that mean that the other portion of his inventory is over priced?
Probably not. The challenge is finding the buyer. Coins are not bullion. Not everyone wants one of the finest 1794 cents that PCGS has seen.
I'm not looking to sell the coin to two people, i'm trying to sell the coin to one.
Also, if making money were my primary objective, do you think i would buy coins over 10K?
The answer is no. It's easier to make 20% on a coin that costs $1000 than it is to make 20% on a coin that costs 40K.
(Now you know why i never refer to myself as a numismatist!)
Let me respond with a question of my own:
Lets say a coin sold in an auction and someone paid "more for it than anyone in the whole room" shelling out $22K for the coin. That same coin was sent to PCGS who called an MS66 BN. The coin has passed from at least one dealer to Anaconda. The coin is now being offered at $49K. Did anyone or any company involved in this process do something wrong? Here are the choices:
1) The original owner, who consigned it to Stacks and received around $18K in cash for it.
2) Stack's, who graded the coin MS60 (according to their traditional grading standards) and received around $3K in fees for it.
3) The dealer who bought it and had it slabbed.
4) PCGS, who graded the coin MS66.
5) Anaconda, who bought it slabbed, I believe, and is now marketing it vigorously for $49K.
6) The eventual new owner.
I would suggest that the actual answer is 4) PCGS, for creating a new grading standard unrelated to anything numismatics has ever seen and 6) the 'future' guy who will buy it, but didn't want it last year when it was not in a holder or was unable to make it that night for the sale (and apparently could not find anyone willing to rep him in return for a fee of $27K).
I can't blame the dealers who try to take advantage of this gaping arbitrage opportunity, but I do believe when it comes time to sell the coins to the collector at the end of the line they need someone numismatically uneducated, who believes that this is the finest known 1794 Cent and is therefore willing to pay that kind of money for it.
Either way, Anaconda is simply the buyer and the seller of the coin. If anyone wishes to point fingers I guess it would be at PCGS?
I would be interested in knowing who got the coin into a PCGS 66!
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
I am getting more skiddish about offering opionions on coin images because its offering opioions on images. I told Anoconda before and i will say publicly here now that i have never seen a dealer take better pictures than the blow uo images on his site, but maybe part of the problem i'm having with coin images including the one Anoconda just posted here is a problem of technology not catching up with a collectors desire for a birds eye view of what a coin would look like if you were rotating it in your hand in good lghting with a full 3d type look at the coin. I sure hope that type of technology will exist some day because if it did it would benifit dealers and collectors alike.
I believe that Singapore is saying that this was lot # 731 from the Hain Family Collection? This coin sold for $ 21,860, and the following two lots, also mint state 1794 large cents sold for close to $ 40,000.
But I am very curious about the perception of quality of lot # 731. From the Stack's photo (which is actually a good photo, if you combine it with a glass), the coin seems high end but with both mint made and handling flaws -- ie, Stack's grade may be conservative, but it does not seem absurd. There appear to be some relatively major abrasions on the cheek, and the pole is rough. Stack's comment on the coin being "a rifle microgranular" -- a remark they would not have made if it did not affect the grade.
I would be very appreciative of some concrete discussion of the quality of this coin, from the perspective of a type collector -- this is condition census for the specialist, but where does it rank with respect to the type?
As far as Stack's grading. They often like to throw bones to the dealers in attendance to get them to attend. Many times they'll call a hands down monster gem choice BU or simply "bordering" on gem.
In actuality the coin is bordering on MS67 or MS68. This takes the mail bidders out of it and allows those in attendance to get the coin,
often at an attractive price. Its also much more fun to bid on an undergraded coin than an overgraded one. The anticipation of a rip or a steal gets everyone's juices flowing. I recall one sale at Sotheby's around 1988 where a seated half dime collection was graded XF to AU for most every coin. Only problem was that most of them were MS63 to 66! They brought strong money due to the extra enticement of a steal.
For every score at an Auction there are probably at least 2 to 3 losers. But it's certain that losers outnumber winners. That's life, but the winners (like at the casinos) keep you coming back for more.
I always like to say that the winner at auction has the "honor" of losing money on a potential upgrade.
roadrunner
(I would suggest that the culpable party) is PCGS, for creating a new grading standard unrelated to anything numismatics has ever seen
Singapore - That's not fair. PCGS wisely decided to grade early coppers in the same way as they grade everything else. Using the EAC standard for early coppers and for nothing else would have been WAY too confusing, especially to newcomers.
About a year ago, I was trying to decide whether to make an offer on J Kerns's MS65 chain cent. I knew the coin had been upgraded from a 64
TDN - Funny thing is, I owned that coin in the late 80's, shortly after it was sold at the Halpern sale. The first time I submitted it, it graded some shade of AU. Having paid something like 125K for it, I was not amused. It graded 63BN the next time and I sold it for a modest profit. By today's standards, I think the coin looks fine in a 65BN holder and I wouldn't hesitate to buy it as such! There's a lesson in there somewhere...
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Andy - Please. The result of PCGS' "wise move" as you call it is for lots of inexperienced collectors to buy coins for large amounts of money thinking they were getting the 'finest known' examples. Those slabs are like enabling behavior to give dealers the ammo they need when making cold calls to people on the six-figure income lists.
Adrian, the classic guys certainly seem willing to talk about things they have seen.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
At midnight, while Adrian prepares to put a large deposit in his bank, the rest of us will once again
turn into little mice, pumpkins, rabbits...................come to think of it, that must be from Cinderella.
Well everyone finish your ribs, baked beans , beer and corn bread, before midnight. Then we can all
go to sleep after a good days workout on the good ole Adrian punching bag.
Camelot
Camelot
This is called the free market. Ain't America great? It's like a giant garden. All you have to do is get off your ass and pick the vegetables.
Russ, NCNE
sincerely michael
You don't need to explain yourself on this one at all--first with the cash gets the prize-its his cash and you set the prize money-DEAL DONE ! Whats is so hard for some to remember this when buying coins? Ive done well buying coins six or seven others were fighting over-I just ended the war-for usally a few measly bucks.
Anyway Kind of a goofy thread
Regards
Mike Rogers
ultramike@collector.org
SHOOT FIRST-QUESTIONS L8TR...
If its nice and you REALLY like it " buy it " sure beats laying awake wishin you had, PLUS you will never forget or FORGIVE YOURSELF for letting it get away-and remember you can always pedel it to regain most of $ . Just one of many of " buying politics I utilize.
Besides I really lost sleep and beat myself up yo learn this simple procedure !~!
<< <i>(If EAC backed up what they claim, they would buy conservatively graded pieces cheaply from other EAC members, get them slabbed and sell them at bluesheet to guys like me. They don't) >>
eac grades do not conform to open-market price guides, they conform the cqr prices. ie. there is no such thing as a "blue sheet" which reflects eac grades. apples & oranges
K S
<< <i>It's like a giant garden. All you have to do is get off your ass and pick the vegetables. >>
hey russ, is that a quote from "being there"? the great peter sellers movie about "chance" the gardner? (1 of the all-time great films)
K S
Mark, wherever you are at the moment, I do believe strongly that a coin should be graded by standard grading standards not its uniqueness.Come to think of it a new grading scale where the coin would be graded by its technical grade (corrected for eye appeal) times a fraction for rarety would be interesting. Has this been actually proposed by any grading service or serious collector?