1807 Draped Bust Dime - guess the grade/discussion to follow - updated

coinguy1

Here is a (hint, hint - mint state - that means you will be wrong if you guess below MS60 or above MS70 ) 1807 Draped Bust Dime for guess the grade and subsequent discussion. Have fun and please, no cheating!

I apologize in advance for the less-than-excellent quality of the images.

airplanenut

I'd guess MS64- seems quite clean...

a2labmom

I'll register my guess as MS64 (with the FRB designation ). Now, if I guess right do I get the coin as a prize?

scher

im gonna guess at ms62..i dont like the stars..but its probably a weak struck issue..i know nothing about this series..am anxious to hear the grade tho.
brue scher

ccr

I`m probably a bit conservative but, I`ll guess MS61.

kieferscoins

MS-63.

Cameron Kiefer

Bear

A high end MS-62 Nice looking coin. Wish I was not out of money.

gmarguli

Here is a (hint, hint - mint state - that means you will be wrong if you guess below MS60 or above MS70 )

Um, is it a PR40?


Now, this isn't a fair coin to grade via scan. It's got clashed dies which look like marks.

There appear to be marks under the Y in Liberty and the two stars after it, plus the ticks one her breasts, dress, and in front of her face, not to mention a hit on her chin.

The clouds on the reverse look to have some serious marks. Looks better than the obverse, but that doesn't count too much in this series.

Given the obverse marks, probably no higher than MS63. However, since it is near impossible to tell some of the clash impressions from actual marks, that grade might be way off. I've seen some really high grades ones that were less than impressive, so it wouldn't surprise me if it was graded higher than that.

The coin also looks like it has a fair amount of luster. If that is/isn't the case, then the grade could be very off. After all, it has VERY likely been dipped. Did the dipping hurt the luster?

MrKelso

I guess MS62

MacCoin

ms62 and I do know why I think its that high. thats a wonderful coin I wished I could afford an AG draped bust dime

EVillageProwler

I'd guess MS62. Since we're having a discussion, Mark, please don't take any offense at my comments.

The coin has impaired luster and an unoriginal look. It also appears to have granular surfaces. For a small coin, it won't take much to knock the grade down a bit (because it has little surface area for contact to begin with).

I haven't attributed the coin, but I believe there is no rare die marriage for that date according to the JR book. For most collectors of early federal coinage, a smooth planchet and an original look brings much excitement!

EVP

Bear

Alright Mark, lets stop futzing around

and have a discussion on this little puppy.

coinguy1

Sorry, Bear, I need to wait until Monday. I'm trying to get a hold of some better images first. But, either way, I'll speak up then. Mrs coinguy1 calls - time to go to the gym and "play".

Trime

Mark,
I agree with the plan to get better pics. I think you might hesitate to grade this coin without better images.

Bustman

I would say 62, maybe 63 on a good day.

jeffnpcb

With those pics, BB'd as cleaned or whizzed! XF-45

BigD5

It looks ms/62ish, no better. Given the fact that it's an early bust example, it's probably in a 4 holder. White, uncirculated bust coinage is like the plague. Not much demand for it.

*maybe not the plague.....chickenpox?

oreville

Not a bad struck coin.....

The central reverse stars and shield are really nice and boldly struck but the reverse gets weaker and weaker as you progress towards the rims. Speaking of which there are no rims on about 50% of the coin.

The obverse central hair and facial details are really nicely struck as well.
The eastern-south/eastern rims of the coin are really nice, the date looks flattened a bit as well as the western stars and the hair behind and bottom of Liberty.

This coins looks to have real nice luster around the stars on the obverse but reverse is harder to discern.

The device of Liberty looks very free from bagmarks.

Who said this is an early bust year of this coin? This is the last year of the draped bust dime!!!!

It looks like an stong MS-62. This may even sell for low MS-63 money if ever for sale and I think NGC might even grade this 63. I am sure it has been dipped once or twice but not a negative.

njcoincrank

Marcus,

Do you have a 3 card monte stand downtown?

I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 70.

What do you think it is?

njcoincrank

jdimmick

I pretty much agree with the consensus group and say Ms-62.

Draco

Yup. .MS62. Of course, it was me submitting it, It would come back in a body bag as cleaned. I'm not having much luck with PCGS lately.

ANACONDA

It looks like a MS63 coin. It has the typical strong central detail with the softly struck peripheries although this one is better than the few
others i've seen. The remnants of the clashed dies might look to a newbie to be marks but this piece, if i'm reading the scans right, looks
fairly clean with fairly original and fresh luster.

adrian

michael

63/64

DesertLizard

I won't guess as I happened to be looking at this coin about 2 days ago!!

What I find fascinating is that there are 50 graded by PCGS at this level! Granted maybe a handful of resubmission but still amazing. Why so many Coinguy1?

relayer

I'll guess MS62

Barry

Even though the pics aren't great, I really don't see any marks of note. For that reason, I vote 65.

DavidLawrence

hmmm. I'll regester an official "guess" as PCGS MS63?

boiler78

John peeked! No fair

MadMonk

MS-62

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Hey Coinguy1

Why is that when you image a coin it is easy to access by going to your website ?

For now on how about posting an image of a coin BEFORE it is on you web site ?

Stewart

stujoe

I would have said AU50 but wth the hint, I will say 62.

Gilbert

hmmmm.

I no very little about this series, and have a tendency to be very critical of dimes, because they're so small and I'm a blind clutz, so please keep that in mind prior to slaying my opinion.

Let's see. Appears to be relatively mark free (I too concluded the disturbance in front of the forehead is more than likely clash marks or planchet related) clean (more than likely dipped) but nevertheless, lustrous appearing, somewhat softly or unevenly struck (open collar/extensively used die). I hardly think I could challenge EVPs assessment of the surfaces (planchet?), but, the "granular" look he mentions come off to me as the typical "dime" look, particularly small coinage of the era, so there is no knockdown in that are for me. I see the coin as possibly a very nice MS64 -- I've already discussed how I feel about the "gem" grades (65 and up).

My apologies if I've slighted the coin.

EVillageProwler

I hardly think I could challenge EVPs assessment of the surfaces

You absolutely can credibly challenge my assessment of the coin's surfaces. I'm going off a terrible image, and I could be quite far off the mark! But, I thank you for the implied compliment.

EVP

oreville

So where is this coin being shown on the internet? Maybe there are better pics of this coin?

dorkkarl

ms-61 GW (ghastly white).

K S

rays

MS64. Strike is better than usual. Typical clash marks. There appears to be abundant lustre and few marks.

Trime

Mark,
Even with the grade provided on the Pinnacles website the image can be improved for teaching purposes.
I am looking forward to the commentary.

BillJones

The coin is an MS-64 that has been cleaned bright white. It is an above average strike for an 1807 dime, which often comes with multiple clash marks and toward the terminal die state, unattractive definition.

As a lover of early coins, this piece leaves me in a conflicted position. I love the sharpness and the detail, but I hate the cleaned bright surfaces. They are so inconsistent for these coins, which should have at a minimum of a moderate toning on them.

If I purchased this coin at for my collection, which I would only do so at a bargain price, I’d put it away in an envelope with the hope that it would acquire a bit of color after a decade or so. I won’t own it however, because most people would out bid me. They would either admire it the way it is, or a coin doctor would add some color to it.

I've attached pictures of an 1805 dime, which is the type coin in my colleciton. If I were offered both pieces, ignoring the price, I'd take my coin over this one despite the fact that my coin is only an AU-58.

rays

Here is my type coin for the draped bust dime. I also prefer a little color. 1807's are very hard to find nice, usually very mushy strike, especially peripheral stars 6:00-9:00.

SethChandler

64

NumisEd

I would say that PCGS graded the dime as MS-68, but it is really an MS-63 (commercial grade). BillJones, Dorkkarl and a few others were right in saying that the coin is too white. Probably had a real nice original dark patina until someone dipped it prior to sending to PCGS, knowing that the "white" color would fool the "experts".

coinguy1

Well, folks, this thread is sort of a bummer for me. At the present time, at least, I am unable to provide better images. If the client who is viewing it is silly enough not to buy it , perhaps I can include more pics at a later date.

And, for those who weren't/aren't aware of it, the grade had/has already been revealed (buy a very naughty poster or two! ) as an MS63.

The good news is that some of the replies have already provided some excellent and accurate information about this coin and its type, so my job is a bit easier.

Heraldic Eagle dimes were produced from 1798-1807. As an interesting aside, the Heraldic Eagle (as opposed to the "Small Eagle" which appeared on 1796 and 1797 dimes) was adopted on $2.50 gold pieces in 1796, but was not used on dimes until 1798. The total mintage for the series was roughly 422,000, 165,000 of those being dated 1807.

The 1807 issue is well known for it's typical weak strike at the stars and letters. According to Walter Breen, the dies clashed at least nine different times, resulting in the weakness mentioned above, in more than 80% of the 1807 production. Maybe that's why I don't recall having seen a fully struck, high grade specimen!

The example imaged here, is actually above average in strike and does display considerable luster, despite its having been dipped recently (not by us!). It shows obvious evidence of the clashed dies, particularly above the date and to the right of Ms. Liberty. It is also quite clean, in terms of abrasions or other man-made defects.

Edited to add: Actually, NumisEd, PCGS graded it MS63 BEFORE it was dipped. It was later dipped and reholdered as a PCGS 63.

Here is a PCGS MS62 and a PCGS MS64 that I found on the Heritage website:

PCGS MS62


PCGS MS64

NumisEd

Actually, NumisEd, PCGS graded it MS63 BEFORE it was dipped. It was later dipped and reholdered as a PCGS 63.

Mark, are you saying that dipping doesn't affect the grade of a coin at PCGS? It was a choice original coin when they slabbed it, then a coin doctor permanently altered the surfaces, then sent it to PCGS, where they again slabbed the coin as MS-63. Sounds like you are saying that PCGS slabs doctored coins. Hmmmm...... Better not let David Hall see this, or he may penalize you on your next submission.

Bear

Funny on the Heratage MS-62 and MS 64, I prefer the lower grade MS-62 as having the more pleasing

appearenceand natural deep luster. Go figuere.

Bear

BillJones

The MS-62 has a "screaming dipped" look to it, and it has either a piece of slag or a scratch on the cheek. The MS-64 looks more "original" although it too was dipped and has now turned yellow or "golden" as some prefer to call it. Many early coin specialists would find the MS-64 more attractive. Neither coin has the "perfect look" for an original coins of this era.

Attached is a photo of an 1805, 4 berry reverse dime that I have in stock. It's in a PCGS MS-62 holder. Send me a PM if you are interested in purchasing it.

Julian

Hating, as I do, to grade coins without being able to see them, I will offer my opinion because it is an early coin.

The strike is typical for the date, but honestly, this choice coin does seem to have rubbing on the face, breast, shoulder, etc.

Consequently, in my opinion, it is a choice AU coin, but I can see the services listing it as a 63.

relayer

Mark,

Are early MS coins held to a lower standard then later issues (say Morgan Dollars) and even modern coinage?

What I'm asking is would a nice 1800 coin be compared to a 1900 or 2000 coin, or is some slack given for the advances in minting technology that didn't exist in 1800?

coinguy1

relayer,

In my opinion, some slack is given, as it should be.

Edited to add : If we're lucky, maybe Bill Jones will post right after me and go into a bit more detail than I have.

BillJones

Earlier coins should get more allowances for strike problems. Unlike New Orleans mint Morgan silver dollars, which are customarily downgraded for poor strikes, and early coins will get more slack for weak strikes although poorly struck coin would never deserve an MS-65 or higher IMO.

Early coins also get some slack for the fact that they did not have the upset protective rims that added to the durability of later pieces. Sometimes you will see an early coin that would otherwise grade choice VG or Fine by sharpness that has some wear into the tops of the letters. If the wear into the letters is not too bad, the coin should still be graded VG or Fine. Allowances are also made for broken dies and late die states, which can result in loss of detail.

Grading early coins can get tricky because sometimes one has to grade at least partly by surfaces. It takes years of experience to learn to grade that way, and some people never pick up the knack. Surface grading is akin to learning how to recognize mint luster. Once you learn what mint luster looks like, you can spot it on Choice EF and AU coins. After while you get to know what the surfaces look like on Fine and VF coins as well.

Baley

not a bad looking little coin, but the poor thing just needs to be left alone for a while!

broken out of there, and stored in someones's home, after a decade or 3 in a nice type set album, in moderate room temperature variations, I'll bet it would mellow significantly, and look pretty original.

I will kindly volunteer my album, if the owner wishes to lend it to me for a while