A change of heart

tradedollarnut · March 8, 2003 1:18AM

First, I would like to apologize for jumping the gun on the Registry Grade issue. It appears that I misinterpreted a statement made to me as all encompassing when it was not intended to be. I appreciate that PCGS is still considering the idea and look forward to a formal decision.

Second, I would like to acknowledge that I was wrong to pull my sets. I lost sight of the fact that it is a priviledge to be able to list my sets in a Registry (here and elsewhere). I allowed my disappointment to overwhelm me and never should have used my sets as a weapon. The most important thing to me is not the competition and not that PCGS agree with me on everything, but rather that I am allowed to share my joy of collecting with others. I was wrong and I'm not too proud to admit it. BJ - if you read this, please put the trade dollar sets back up!

Third, on the issue of the 1885, I have to admit that there is no right answer. Technically, I agree that the coin is a 65CAM and deep down I admire the fact that PCGS will not compromise their standards because of the fame of the coin. At the same time, in comparison to other classic rarities which I feel are ranked more than graded, the current grade may be appropriate. When in doubt, doing nothing is a viable alternative and so that is what I will do.

After many conversations with David and BJ, I am quite certain that PCGS is doing their best to make the Registry enjoyable for all. I appreciate that a lot and pledge to focus on the good attributes and enjoy it for what it is - a fine place to show one's coins!

RegistryCoin · March 8, 2003 1:24AM

Cool.

Fairlaneman · March 8, 2003 1:28AM

TDN do you really think you are getting Off this easy by just Posting a Apology ??? Hmmmmm........OK...

I second the COOL !!

Ken

DIMEMAN · March 8, 2003 1:39AM

Nice to have you back TDN, but I CAN feel your pain on the 1885.

Jon

fcloud · March 8, 2003 1:44AM

I agree, COOL!

python1 · March 8, 2003 2:12AM

TDN,
glad you are back, but lets keep PCGS all PCGS, lets not mix up the pot, it seems to get a little dirty when these things happen. (again, just an opinion, so please dont flame).

COOL COOL COOL!

TWQG · March 8, 2003 3:58AM

Very cool and nicely worded.

kieferscoins · March 8, 2003 4:12AM

Glad to hear it. Now the only sad part is that this thread will be read by half as many people as the other and most people will quickly forget it.

Cameron Kiefer

braddick · March 8, 2003 4:23AM

That took grace and class. Two qualities I knew you were not lacking.

Welcome back.

coinguy1 · March 8, 2003 4:37AM

Pat said it all and perfectly, too.

cointime · March 8, 2003 5:05AM

This is a good thing

Ken

EVillageProwler · March 8, 2003 7:50AM

TDN, READ MY THOUGHTS.

EVillageProwler · March 8, 2003 8:19AM

deep down I admire the fact that PCGS will not compromise their standards because of the fame of the coin

Uh, huh. Sure. Whatever. One question: how deep did you have to go down?

You know what's the best thing about this thread? It reminds me that I gotta go feed the dogs.

EVP

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · March 8, 2003 9:32AM

TDN

Deep Down is the fact that the set registry is an emotional roller coaster.Since there is noone with a Trade Dollar set to challenge you,You HAVE to challenge PCGS and David Hall.I hope you win.My prediction is that you will eventually get what you need in one shape or form.

Stewart

tradedollarnut · March 8, 2003 9:38AM

EVP - I just want to enjoy my coins. I have too much tied up in a non performing asset to ever consider letting anything hinder that enjoyment. I'm tired of stressing over what holder a coin may or may not be in. I'm tired of stressing over whether a set is listed or not listed, complete or not complete. Or what grade is assigned to a finest known coin - does it really matter when it's hands down the finest? I'll save my worries for things that really matter in life.

I will collect for my own enjoyment and leave the tilting at windmills to others more suited.

EVillageProwler · March 8, 2003 9:54AM

TDN,

Do whatever you want. JUST READ MY THOUGHTS.

EVP

tradedollarnut · March 8, 2003 10:08AM

EVP - I feel I am a reasonable person. I learned a long time ago that even a reasonable person's viewpoint is not necessarily correct. My viewpoint is inherently tied to that of the large collector, with a bit of second hand knowledge of the dealer and submittor. In other words, my viewpoint is tainted by my circumstances.

Just because I believe I understand the reasons for someone's actions, does not make it true. PCGS states that it grades to a standard as best as it is capable. A submittor states that the standard is not constant. Isn't it possible that both those points of view are substantially correct? Isn't it probable that neither point of view is 100% true, but both are substantially true? If grading is an inexact art [not a science], then I believe that it is totally probable that both viewpoints are correct. If both viewpoints are correct, then all the stress on my part in the world cannot change a thing. Disagreement is inherent to the system.

I lost track of the fact that I can believe what I believe and yet not be any more right than the person who believes what they believe. Even when it seems that only one can be right.

I shall now challenge Bear to a philosophy duel.

Cocoinut · March 8, 2003 10:34AM

TDN,

Thanks for pointing out something that we all need to remember: for many of us, the Registry is more a place to show off our coins than it is a competition. We compare our sets to others, congratulate each other on our latest acquisitions, and most do not take it too seriously. We all get a chance to have our "15 minutes of fame", or, in the case of a set such as yours, perhaps a half hour.

I hope you and PCGS can reach a compromise on the issue of your 1885 Trade dollar. You're a class act.

Jim

Fairlaneman · March 8, 2003 10:37AM

Really it does boil down to what you think of the coin and not what someone else thinks of the coin. It is a relief that some people can just put the opinions of others too the side and make judgements that satisfy themselves. As shown right here in this thread not at all times will your personal decisions meet with the approval of all of your peers. In the same vain your peers probably do not make decisions that you always agree with.

The whole Gradeing fiasco between PCGS and NGC has got so blown out of shape that it borders on lunacy. For a collector of coins, who is suppose to gain pleasure not grief, to fret and worry constantly about the rights and wrongs with the services gradeing practices Now just plain amazes myself. Now, was stressed as I did the same damn thing untill finally realizing that if I could not enjoy this Hobby it was time to get out of it again and stay out. I firmly believe if more collectors would take the Enjoy or Get Out theory the Hobby would be in a little better shape.

Ken

rkfish · March 8, 2003 10:46AM

Something strange is going on here.......first bear and now TDN!

Well written and where we all need to be!

marcmoish · March 8, 2003 10:57AM

Seems like EVP is still in Denial

TDN on the other hand is well on his way to recovery.

Marc

DMWJR · March 8, 2003 11:06AM

I think Bear has been talking to TDN.

EVillageProwler · March 8, 2003 11:22AM

Seems like EVP is still in Denial

I see the winkey, but I still wish to ask: about what am I in denial? The crux of what TDN wrote is that two reasonable people can reasonably disagree, and still be no more right or wrong than the other.

If there's any more left to say (between TDN and me) on this matter, we'll do it privately. Or, I may just get on a plane and go kick me some Scottish butt!

EVP

RegistryCoin · March 8, 2003 12:36PM

The registry is a game, a ploy, a way to make money, a way to show off your coins, a way to catalog your coins, an ego booster, a marketing coup, a lovely way to share. The registry is simply what you make of it. For me, it's a name, has been a way of life, a source of comraderie, a source of intense competition, a stepping stone, a source of friends, fun, pain, agony, pride, embarassment, did I say fun?
Thanks, TDN.

solid · March 8, 2003 3:30PM

Cool, let's just have fun

now, next week may be a different story

Fairlaneman · March 8, 2003 7:11PM

Hey EVP if you jump on that plane let me know as I will jump into the car and take a drive to Eastern Washington too meet both of you guys before the Battle of the Titans takes place.

Ken

roadrunner · March 8, 2003 11:59PM

TDN, now you are halfway home to getting your PCGS 66! Good luck.

roadrunner

BJ · March 9, 2003 12:21AM

Welcome home, tradedollarnut! Your beautiful sets are back to active status. Now... get those chopmark dollars listed!

P.S. You really ARE a class act.

mdwoods · March 9, 2003 12:42AM

That took grace and class. Two qualities I knew you were not lacking.

Braddick said it well. Glad you changed your mind. mdwoods

tradedollarnut · March 9, 2003 2:12AM

TDN, now you are halfway home to getting your PCGS 66! Good luck

NO! I ABHOR THAT STATEMENT! I REJECT THAT STATEMENT! The coin will never be a PCGS66 and that is fine with me. I did not do this to curry favor - I did this to go back to enjoying my set. David has made it clear that he considers the coin a PCGS 65CAM and I happen to agree. But I'll not be the only person to ever downgrade a classic rarity. I am done stressing out over what holder or grade my coins are assigned. I lost track of what really matters to me - but now I've found it again. When a coin is the finest known - such as the 1885 or the Vermeule 73-CC - does it really matter which holder it's in or which grade has been assigned? I have decided to enjoy what they are and quit stressing out over what they aren't!

The sets are back up so that I can continue to enjoy sharing my coins with others. It's that simple.

EVillageProwler · March 9, 2003 3:10AM

TDN,

If Dwight Manley can have success with the difficult crossovers, so can you. Let us know when you get the PCGS66 grade, ok? Manley was good and knowledgeable, but it's also who he knows. I'm not trying to cast aspersions now, but merely acknowledging an objective reality.

EVP

EVillageProwler · March 9, 2003 3:15AM

The sets are back up so that I can continue to enjoy sharing my coins with others. It's that simple.

Much thanks for your philanthropy; is that a by-product of your noblesse oblige? BTW, I was enjoying them just fine by going across the street. In fact, I look at them there far more often than I do here.

Once again, thanks for bringing them back here. The hubbub was all worth it, for they complete me. Now, show me the money!

EVP

EVillageProwler · March 9, 2003 3:18AM

When a coin is the finest known - such as the 1885 or the Vermeule 73-CC - does it really matter which holder it's in or which grade has been assigned? I have decided to enjoy what they are and quit stressing out over what they aren't!

BTW, TDN, what are you going to do with your 1873-CC TD PCGS MS64 specimen? Is it on the market, or is it reserved as a filler for the CU registry hole? The Vermuele specimen is very nice...

EVP

tradedollarnut · March 9, 2003 3:18AM

If Dwight Manley can have success with the difficult crossovers, so can you

By PCGS standards, I grade the coin a 65CAM. I would not state this publicly if I had any aspirations to the coin crossing. Whether other classic rarities are overgraded is immaterial to me - I do not own them and I have no vested interest in them. I truly do not want to deal with the issue anymore.

Cast aside all third party opinion related stress, enjoy the coins for what they are and ye shall be free!

what are you going to do with your PCGS MS64 1873-CC?

The coin is for sale. The Vermeule coin is of significantly higher quality. I enjoy the Vermuele coin much more than the PCGS coin - therefore it is the coin for my set. I'm not going to stress out over empty holes anymore. I will keep the coins I enjoy and let that be the marker of my success.

EVillageProwler · March 9, 2003 3:20AM

I truly do not want to deal with the issue anymore.

That's understandable, but could you answer my last question? If you do so privately, I will respect the confidentiality.

EVP

Clankeye · March 9, 2003 5:52AM

TDN--

I am glad I wandered over to the registry forum and got a chance to read this thread. I wish people in the general coin forum would read it.

What you had to say, you said very well, and I respect you for it.

Whatever reasons you had for pulling the sets, and whatever reasons you might have for putting them back are yours and yours alone. But your sincerity and the well measured tone of your post about it is appreciated.

Some of the rancor that has developed between PCGS and members of the numismatic community is disturbing to some of us on the outside. I don't doubt that there are real problems, but I also don't doubt that there are real solutions. All I can say with any certainly is that from the place I look at things, if dialogue is shut down, then there is no chance for solutions. Your post, and subsequent posts in this thread, have a lot of insight. I appreciate it.

Carl

tradedollarnut · March 9, 2003 5:56AM

Thanks, Carl!

EVP - I have deleted the 73CC from the Registry. I do still own it, but it is for sale and not a part of the Legend Collection.

Typetone · March 9, 2003 6:24AM

TDN:

Thank you for putting your set back up. Everyone knows that it is one of the best specialty sets in existence. Just list your NGC piece in the introduction. Who cares where you rank? Nobody, that's who. Everyone knows it is the best.

Greg

RegistryCoin · March 9, 2003 6:36AM

Great idea, Greg. The intro is a perfect place to paint a picture of the ngc coins.
(Also, you could get hole fillers, lowest available pcgs graded coins, for those dates in which you have an ngc piece, then upload a pic of the ngc coin in the description)

EVillageProwler · March 9, 2003 7:23AM

TDN,

Thank you for answering the significant elements of my questions publicly. Actually, thanks just for answering.

I am now willing to bury the hatchet. (Lest anyone misunderstand, that's a metaphor and not a threat!)

Now, all you have to do is to convince the owner of the Linda Collection to come back here with his sets.

EVP

agfox · March 9, 2003 9:17AM

TDN the thoughts flowing seem to be of a very positive nature. Could I be so bold as to what "clicked" in your head for the change of heart?

tradedollarnut · March 9, 2003 9:58AM

Remembering that I collect for pleasure and not for profit. The realization that if I hold my coins for 40 years, today's holder and grade mean very little in the grand scheme of things.

The realization that if I continue to stress over the holder or grade, I will stop collecting. I have too much tied up into coins to ever allow myself to stop enjoying them. In the series I collect, I have to be willing to step up and buy the finest. If I then expose myself to the stress of worrying about others' opinions of the coins, I might as well sell right now. So I had a little talk with myself and decided I was going to S T O P worrying about what I cannot control and just E N J O Y the journey!

Bear · March 9, 2003 10:05AM

TDN, now that you have shown you can write with style, grace and eloquence. How about

telling us a story like Clank does on Mondays(usually). We can use all the funny stories we can get.

Seriously though, well said by a big person, a fine collector and a nice guy.

agfox · March 9, 2003 10:21AM

Now that sounds like a happy man. Cheers

DeepCoin · March 9, 2003 11:17PM

TDN, Welcome back. I would also like to say that you do not necessarily have non performing assets. I am certain your collection is steadily increasing in value. The fact that you choose not to sell them just makes them illiquid to a degree (only to you, not the rest of the world who would gladly snatch them up).

Also, I would like to add that when viewing a world class set such as yours, one only sees the coins. The eye does not wander to the holder as it is caught by the beauty of the coins. Who knows what the grading standards will be in 10 years, but we do know the coins will still be incredibly beautiful.

Cameo CC · March 10, 2003 12:27AM

As my Dad would say to me, "You're a good man Charlie Brown".

Todd

DAM · March 10, 2003 12:55AM

Remembering that I collect for pleasure and not for profit.

Sadly, I believe the Registry is partly responsible for an about-face attitude collectors are experiencing, placing profit above the pleasure of collecting. I'm not saying blame the Registry, rather it has been one of the fuels being tossed on a flaming market that has caused some collectors to chase dollar signs.

Welcome back to the joy of collecting!

Zerbe · March 10, 2003 1:57AM

TDN, welcome back.
I know you must have explained this before, but in looking at the PCGS rules, I cannot understand how your 1885 is not allowed into the PCGS Registry with an asterisk (*), as it is the same coin allowed there now in the Eliasberg set with the afore mentioned asterisk (*). If PCGS allowed it at the PR65C designation, then, I do not see why this has not been done. There is no doubt that this is the same coin. Is it because this coin is now in a "different holder", that it is not allowed ? I can see PCGS not allowing the coin as a PR66, but I believe they should allow it into the PCGS Registry at the grade they have assigned it, (PR65C, with the asterisk ).
I had never realized before that your 1885 was actually included as part of the Eliasberg Set, and if PCGS is not agreeing to accept the coin into the PCGS Registry at the same grade as they have done with Mr. Eliasberg, then I too would be honestly infuriated.
I must be missing part of the equation here, because it is not making sense to me. It just seems that they should allow it into your set as a "grandfatherted coin".
I would appreciate a short exlpanation of why the coin is not being allowed as a PR65C with asterisk, by PCGS or by somebody who knows the technical reason, if there is one.
I imagine if there were a poll taken, asking all forum members to vote whether or not to allow the Eliasberg PR65C , with asterisk, into the Legend Set, that it would be a unanimous "YES".
Again, welcome back and congratulations on having the
N icest G raded C omplete set of Trade dollars in existance.

ZERBE

BJ · March 10, 2003 5:53AM

Zerbe,

The answer to your question is that technically we cannot add non-PCGS graded coins to current sets as the coins are added by PCGS certification numbers.

pontiacinf · March 10, 2003 5:59AM

cool bruce

congrats on Numismatist showcasing your website

DMWJR · March 10, 2003 6:04AM

This has been enlightening. I had never considered that TDN's coin was actually already included in a ghost set. If PCGS would recognize it for that set, one would think it could be recognized for TDN's set.

Frankly, I don't think this would open a pandora's box for PCGS. We are only talking about coins that they obviously have already looked at and graded, and few people can afford to own them. I don't think the coin is any less special now that TDN owns it instead of Mr. Eliasberg.

I see TDN's point with a little more clarity.

TDN: Your set appears to be unmatchable regardless of holders. I'm glad you have chosen to be a bigger person and put PCGS holders in their proper place. They are important, but not so much when you are talking about the coins you have.

A change of heart

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