Yeah PCGS does sound kinda bogus. Maybe I'll take my business to NGC too. I have a question first though. Who owns Certified Collectibles Group which owns NGC & NCS? I like to know who I'm dealing with. Does anybody actually know?
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
PCGS coins? When did PCGS start making coins? I must have missed that....
I still would like a reasonable explanation why anyone would WASTE their money submitting coins IF they aren't selling them. Save your dough and buy another coin instead.
Mr.Hall said in his opinion 80% of NGC coins were overgraded. PCGS graders seem to agree, crossing about 20% of the NGC coins submitted for crossover. Based on my limited experience crossing PCGS coins to NGC (all crackouts), 8 crossed at the same grade, 1 downgraded a point, and one went from cam to Ucam. Everyone has lots to say about both services (myself included), but based on my personal experience, both have strengths and weaknesses, and the grading is more similar than many suspect. If Mr.Hall were correct about the 80% overgrades though, no dealer would ever submit to PCGS. Whether you believe NGC overgrades or PCGS undergrades, or believe as I do that there is less difference than most here would admit, one thing is certain, NGC MS66s are worth more than PCGS 65s, so why would any seller submit to PCGS and get less than possible for his coin. Since many dealers still submit to PCGS, I can only assume this prejudice is at least partly marketing hype. I think we collectors need both services. I don't even care that they agree. Perhaps it is better for the hobby if they don't. At least when one goes goofy, we always have an alternative.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I still would like a reasonable explanation why anyone would WASTE their money submitting coins IF they aren't selling them. Save your dough and buy another coin instead.
I've submitted raw coins that I intend on keeping for several reasons.
If I am ever forced to sell a coin quickly for money reasons, having it slabbed will make it easier to sell and get me a better price.
I buy coins based on the toning. Having it slabbed gives the toning some legitimacy. It also helps prevent the coin from toning any further.
They're easier to handle. My safe is full of slab boxes. I don't want to add a box of raw to it.
Protection. If I drop one, it doesn't get hurt if it is in a slab.
I'm always willing to upgrade a coin. If I have my current one slabbed, I can use it in trade or sell it quickly to help pay for the new one.
It's the only way I can participate in the registry. (just kidding).
<< <i>My Kool AID has some Tequila, its sorta a Margarita Cross....... More batches to PCGs! >>
When? After posting the submission with the MS-62 & 63 Franklins we haven't seen anything since. Except for the '62 PR-64 DCAM Franklin you sent on Russ' submission.
I'm looking forward to seeing some of those monster FBL's you say you've been picking up at different shops. Please let us see a new submission # and your expected grades. Maybe even some super pictures?! >>
Greg: Good explainations. My original question (which wasn't clearly stated) was why slab a coin UNLESS you are selling. Therefore:
1) Being able to sell quickly.
OK, yes, coins are obviously easier to sell quickly. This makes sense since the market pretty much demands a slab.
2) To keep from being harmed
There are CHEAPER ways of doing that....
3) Toning legitamacy
The BEST way for this is know what is AT or isn't. But I'm assuming you are already buying toned coins in slabs so there isn't a reason for having it slabbed, right? Even if it wasn't slabbed there still isn't a reason to waste money on slabbing UNLESS you want to sell, right?
I still think you should save your money to buy another coin.....
I agree with Greg on his reasons, and I think that encapsulation covers most of the concerns he mentioned. What is the cheaper method (if one WANTS to be cheap) that provides protection from damage, preservation of the coins present condition, the ability to liquidate at probably the best price and the legitimacy of toning that HE seeks?
Yeah and if you dont learn how to grade coins you will be cracking our your ngc coins and sending them to pcgs when you are not happy with what you get at ngc. Why dont all of you whiners go sit in the corner and suck on your thumbs for a while. Then grow up. Grown ups dont whine about not getting their way, they just stay cool and figure something else out. If one route is blocked for you, do something else. You are either going to make it own your own, or you are not going to make it. PCGS and NGC cant help you. They are only a tool for those who understand how to make that tool work. Get with it and figure out how to make it work!
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
How about the off chance that you are killed, and your heirs have to sell your stuff? How about the guarantee if a coin turns ugly in the slab? How about authentication? How about an airtight holder?
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Whether you believe NGC overgrades or PCGS undergrades, or believe as I do that there is less difference than most here would admit, one thing is certain, NGC MS66s are worth more than PCGS 65s, so why would any seller submit to PCGS and get less than possible for his coin.
Don,
Those dealers who live and die by the slab will try to predict how each service will grade a particular coin. If said coin will both grade the same by PCGS and NGC, then I think most will try PCGS first. If they feel that the coin will grade higher at one than the other (and thus supposedly be worth more), then obviously they'll try the one with the greater financial potential first.
One occasion, they'll try a specific service simply their customer prefers a specific service. For example, there are many who prefer the white NGC cores for their larger toned silvers and their gold pieces. And, others prefer the clear PCGS cores for their smaller coins.
Of course, there are also those dealers who make decisions based less on logic and more on emotion...
I think we collectors need both services. I don't even care that they agree. Perhaps it is better for the hobby if they don't. At least when one goes goofy, we always have an alternative.
I think this is a very important point... Competition in industry is always ultimately good for the consumer. It forces the market participants to do better in every aspect, and that generally results in a better product at a better price for the consumers (us).
JOMThe final line is for selling,but not myself.When I pass away I plan on having a substantial coin collection to pass on to my daughter.With links to price guides and some pricing guides,along with my written instruction.My daughter will understand the true price and value of these coins if she decides to sell them.It is a lot harder to be deceived if the coins are slabbed by PCGS+ NGC than if they were raw. Isn't the advice we give to newbies, "buy slabbed until you know what your doing",given to protect them.That is what I'm doing for my daughter,protecting her.
Approaching 2 months now. I am still waiting on my 3 ECONOMY submissions to PCGS. They received the first on 1/13/03. Nothing posted on the web yet. It's a long wait these days.
"location, location, location...eye appeal, eye appeal, eye appeal" My website
>>How about the off chance that you are killed, and your heirs have to sell your stuff?
Yes, but how do we know PCGS will be around in the future. Things change. BUT this still just comes down to the desire to sell.
>>How about the guarantee is a coin turns ugly in the slab?
What guarantee?
>>How about authentication?
We ALL should learn to do this ourselves.
>>>>How about an airtight holder?
Cointains good enough. If you have copper...I don't know. BUT there are many Red Cents around that certainly weren't in slabs for many years.
Thanks for the responses. I've seen where people have a coin that you think is a 66 but it's in a 65 holder and they end up sending the coin in. What for? If you aren't going to sell and you aren't a dealer (which is the same idea) why waste your money? This is really what I'm trying to get at...
<< <i>I have many submission which are none of your buisness Mike DCAMFranklin, PCGs has been very good to me. Say, how about you sharing yours? How about one of your mighty Ebay auctions? How about even a picture of a coin? >>
I wasn't trying to start anything. Sorry you took it that way. I was just hoping to see some of your results. Sorry you think I was "intruding" on some secret! Ex-cuuuuuuse me. I'll not ask again. Seems it is a sensitive area for you.
Oh, just so you know, you and your buddy PEPPERDOODLES, Forum Member Doops, still have the name wrong. So just let it go. Your baiting has become tiresome. >>
DONT YOU EVEN MAKE REFERENCE TO ME BOY,I'LL SLAP YOU SILLY. YOUR DAY IS COMING THEN I'M STILL GOING TO SLAP YOU SILLY. PUNK !
Thank God the streets are tree lined so the Panzers could roll in the shade! I heard it got hot in those cans!!
I like PCGS for certain coins. I prefer ANACS for varieties and their attributions on the insert! And I believe that NGC is also working to that end as ANACS in varities and DD's. Both PCGS and NGC work well with moderns.
What I would like to know is how many graders each company has employed, the number of coins rolling in every month and the amount of time it takes to grade those coins. Low volume would equal longer times on grading and that would be the company to send them too.
HEAD TUCKED AND ROLLING ALONG ENJOYING THE VIEW! [Most people I know!]
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!! Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
What I would like to know is who owns Certified Collectibles Group which owns NGC & NCS? Everybody seems to think they know so much about NGC but apparently know very little.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
CCG is a Limited Liability Corporation with Mark Salzberg listed in the Uniform Business Report as "Managing Member". Apparently, there were two CCGs, one in New Jersey and one in Florida; these were merged 12.31.02. There is also a Steve R. Eichenbaum listed in the foreign corporation registration paperwork allowing the now merged NJ LLC to do business in FL.
What I would like to know is who owns Certified Collectibles Group which owns NGC & NCS? Everybody seems to think they know so much about NGC but apparently know very little.
How much did you know about who owned PCGS before they went public?
Comments
<< <i>More grading for me and Lucy at PCGS! >>
Ditto!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Does anybody actually know?
I still would like a reasonable explanation why anyone would WASTE their money submitting coins IF they aren't selling them. Save your dough and buy another coin instead.
jom
<< <i>I still would like a reasonable explanation why anyone would WASTE their money submitting coins IF they aren't selling them. >>
Because I like em and I have alot of money to waste. More Grading for me!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Mr.Hall said in his opinion 80% of NGC coins were overgraded. PCGS graders seem to agree, crossing about 20% of the NGC coins submitted for crossover. Based on my limited experience crossing PCGS coins to NGC (all crackouts), 8 crossed at the same grade, 1 downgraded a point, and one went from cam to Ucam. Everyone has lots to say about both services (myself included), but based on my personal experience, both have strengths and weaknesses, and the grading is more similar than many suspect. If Mr.Hall were correct about the 80% overgrades though, no dealer would ever submit to PCGS. Whether you believe NGC overgrades or PCGS undergrades, or believe as I do that there is less difference than most here would admit, one thing is certain, NGC MS66s are worth more than PCGS 65s, so why would any seller submit to PCGS and get less than possible for his coin. Since many dealers still submit to PCGS, I can only assume this prejudice is at least partly marketing hype. I think we collectors need both services. I don't even care that they agree. Perhaps it is better for the hobby if they don't. At least when one goes goofy, we always have an alternative.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I've submitted raw coins that I intend on keeping for several reasons.
If I am ever forced to sell a coin quickly for money reasons, having it slabbed will make it easier to sell and get me a better price.
I buy coins based on the toning. Having it slabbed gives the toning some legitimacy. It also helps prevent the coin from toning any further.
They're easier to handle. My safe is full of slab boxes. I don't want to add a box of raw to it.
Protection. If I drop one, it doesn't get hurt if it is in a slab.
I'm always willing to upgrade a coin. If I have my current one slabbed, I can use it in trade or sell it quickly to help pay for the new one.
It's the only way I can participate in the registry. (just kidding).
<< <i>Sorry, but how many coins do you submit? Hard to have a problem when you submit 5 coins a year. >>
More like 20-25 coins a year.
Cameron Kiefer
<< <i>
<< <i>My Kool AID has some Tequila, its sorta a Margarita Cross....... More batches to PCGs! >>
When? After posting the submission with the MS-62 & 63 Franklins we haven't seen anything since. Except for the '62 PR-64 DCAM Franklin you sent on Russ' submission.
I'm looking forward to seeing some of those monster FBL's you say you've been picking up at different shops. Please let us see a new submission # and your expected grades. Maybe even some super pictures?!
When?
1) Being able to sell quickly.
OK, yes, coins are obviously easier to sell quickly. This makes sense since the market pretty much demands a slab.
2) To keep from being harmed
There are CHEAPER ways of doing that....
3) Toning legitamacy
The BEST way for this is know what is AT or isn't. But I'm assuming you are already buying toned coins in slabs so there isn't a reason for having it slabbed, right? Even if it wasn't slabbed there still isn't a reason to waste money on slabbing UNLESS you want to sell, right?
I still think you should save your money to buy another coin.....
jom
I agree with Greg on his reasons, and I think that encapsulation covers most of the concerns he mentioned. What is the cheaper method (if one WANTS to be cheap) that provides protection from damage, preservation of the coins present condition, the ability to liquidate at probably the best price and the legitimacy of toning that HE seeks?
I would add personal preference to that list.
1) Preservation
Coins are known to tone in slabs. Not much help there
2) Protection
Cointains are good. But how much protection do you need? What do you guys do anyway, roll your slabs down the driveway? lol
3) Preference
Can't argue with that.
I still only see the "ablility to sell" as a motivation for the slab. Of course, there's always the Registry....
jom
How about the off chance that you are killed, and your heirs have to sell your stuff?
How about the guarantee if a coin turns ugly in the slab?
How about authentication?
How about an airtight holder?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I agree with you 100%.
Brian.
Don,
Those dealers who live and die by the slab will try to predict how each service will grade a particular coin. If said coin will both grade the same by PCGS and NGC, then I think most will try PCGS first. If they feel that the coin will grade higher at one than the other (and thus supposedly be worth more), then obviously they'll try the one with the greater financial potential first.
One occasion, they'll try a specific service simply their customer prefers a specific service. For example, there are many who prefer the white NGC cores for their larger toned silvers and their gold pieces. And, others prefer the clear PCGS cores for their smaller coins.
Of course, there are also those dealers who make decisions based less on logic and more on emotion...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I think this is a very important point... Competition in industry is always ultimately good for the consumer. It forces the market participants to do better in every aspect, and that generally results in a better product at a better price for the consumers (us).
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Isn't the advice we give to newbies, "buy slabbed until you know what your doing",given to protect them.That is what I'm doing for my daughter,protecting her.
I am still waiting on my 3 ECONOMY submissions to PCGS.
They received the first on 1/13/03. Nothing posted on the web yet.
It's a long wait these days.
My website
>>How about the off chance that you are killed, and your heirs have to sell your stuff?
Yes, but how do we know PCGS will be around in the future. Things change. BUT this still just comes down to the desire to sell.
>>How about the guarantee is a coin turns ugly in the slab?
What guarantee?
>>How about authentication?
We ALL should learn to do this ourselves.
>>>>How about an airtight holder?
Cointains good enough. If you have copper...I don't know. BUT there are many Red Cents around that certainly weren't in slabs for many years.
Thanks for the responses. I've seen where people have a coin that you think is a 66 but it's in a 65 holder and they end up sending the coin in. What for? If you aren't going to sell and you aren't a dealer (which is the same idea) why waste your money? This is really what I'm trying to get at...
jom
Whether PCGS is around or not, my heirs chances of selling my collection for what it is worth will be enhanced by the holder.
If I buy an attractive coin that clouds, discolors, spots, or otherwise spoils in the holder, I have recourse with the service that holdered the coin.
Authentication also comes with a guarantee. If the experts are fooled, and the truth is later revealed, I'm still partially protected.
As for the copper, I believe much of it was laquered. I prefer airtight.
That seems like alot of value-add for $15.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
<< <i>I have many submission which are none of your buisness Mike DCAMFranklin, PCGs has been very good to me. Say, how about you sharing yours? How about one of your mighty Ebay auctions? How about even a picture of a coin? >>
I wasn't trying to start anything. Sorry you took it that way. I was just hoping to see some of your results. Sorry you think I was "intruding" on some secret! Ex-cuuuuuuse me. I'll not ask again. Seems it is a sensitive area for you.
Oh, just so you know, you and your buddy PEPPERDOODLES, Forum Member Doops, still have the name wrong. So just let it go. Your baiting has become tiresome. >>
DONT YOU EVEN MAKE REFERENCE TO ME BOY,I'LL SLAP YOU SILLY. YOUR DAY IS COMING THEN I'M STILL GOING TO SLAP YOU SILLY. PUNK !
Ever the professional dealer.
I like PCGS for certain coins. I prefer ANACS for varieties and their attributions on the insert! And I believe that NGC is also working to that end as ANACS in varities and DD's. Both PCGS and NGC work well with moderns.
What I would like to know is how many graders each company has employed, the number of coins rolling in every month and the amount of time it takes to grade those coins. Low volume would equal longer times on grading and that would be the company to send them too.
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
Everybody seems to think they know so much about NGC but apparently know very little.
CCG is a Limited Liability Corporation with Mark Salzberg listed in the Uniform Business Report as "Managing Member". Apparently, there were two CCGs, one in New Jersey and one in Florida; these were merged 12.31.02. There is also a Steve R. Eichenbaum listed in the foreign corporation registration paperwork allowing the now merged NJ LLC to do business in FL.
That's all I could find so far.
Russ, NCNE
Everybody seems to think they know so much about NGC but apparently know very little.
How much did you know about who owned PCGS before they went public?
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer