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Impressions Of L.B. From "Behind The Table"
wondercoin
Posts: 16,693 ✭✭✭✭✭
Before I begin - The Lunch on Thursday was the highlight of my Long Beach show as well. Meeting everyone was GREAT!! A big thanks to Miles Standish of PCGS once again!! 
Miles also told me we could organize a Lunch for the next Long Beach show, which he would plan to attend. He also asked me to convey his warm feelings to everyone here on the boards.
OK- here are some personal impressions of the Long Beach show from "behind the table". Please, remember, I said "personal impressions" - I know this isn't the same for every dealer in the room. In fact, I'll admit in advance, it might be entirely different for many. But, I thought you might like to consider this.
1. For many dealers, how PCGS and NGC are grading at the show essentially "makes or breaks" their show. I can not speak for NGC, but, as far as PCGS, the grading "broke" the show for many dealers. "Tight" grading impacts a multitude of factors at a major show, including a readjustment of bid levels for coins at auction. It also crushes the "bottom line" as these submissions are at $65 and $100/coin. How "tight" was grading at the show (from my perspective)? Well, one well known dealer (and forum member) stood in line on Friday to show David Hall (who was at the PCGS table to "talk coins") a coin that graded MS66 at the show on Thursday. David Hall agreed that the coin had a chance for the upgrade to MS67 and suggested the coin go in for regrade. On Saturday, it regraded MS65 (this, of course, isn't supposed to happen on regrade and the coin will likely get put back into the MS66 holder). Enough said.
2. Collectors were not spending record amounts of money at tables this show (I am being kind here). The dealers I spoke with reported very soft sales overall. On several occasions, a few coins on my table collectors were interested in either ended up buying the same coin at auction (for more money) or decided to wait to pick it up after the show off my website. Collectors are now accumstomed to buying off the net from reliable dealers. And, speaking of paying more money at auction - a couple days ago a 1934(d) Lincoln cent in PCGS-MS67RD sold for around $2500 in the Superior Sale (a fair price). Then, in the Heritage sale (a couple days later), the same coin (no question the coin was not nicer quality IMHO) sold for more than $5,000. Collectors are definately comfortable streching for auction coins, which is another reason the "set up dealer" has less incentive to put out those kind of coins on the table.
3. The expenses are very high to "set up" at a major show". I live an hour from the show, but spent more than $1000 to share a table with Rick Kay at the show (who was the best table partner I could ever ask for). I would have had to sell close to $10,000 of certain consignment coins to cover just that expense - forget that happening for many dealers in the room as far as I can see. Now, we did save some money pre-signing up for the next Long Beach show, which Rick did. And, I did hear that I could save some money buying my hotel room on the net - but, suffice it to say, I see little monetary reward setting up at a major show (see #4 below).
4. Many dealers told me the KEY reason they set up is to meet the "big" retail customers. But, I noticed that many of these KEY customers are right here on the Coin Forum (which I believe has resulted in many major dealers coming here recently as a likely source of business). And, guess what- we could organize another lunch next time and many of these "prize" customers would be at the Lunch table without the need to have a costly table to offer them coins from. And, collectors trade with collectors freely as a result of social gatherings like the Lunch we did, without even the need for a dealer in the middle. Heck, if I just landed a MONSTER Three Cent CN coin - does anyone think I would have needed a costly table at the show to pass that coin down the Lunch table to Bruce Scher at the other side of the table on Thursday afternoon and offer it to him (Bruce - if you are reading- I owe you $20) Information is key and everyone has access to it now.
5. DEALER TO DEALER deals are the most important reason to set up at the show and may justly every cent of expense to do so (and why I will probably do it again next Long Beach) . Having first shot at freshly made coins is very important and enjoying a casual drink or dinner with a close (business dealer) friend is what it is all about as far as I am concerned. The bonds between dealer friends are very special and when the auction prices get "stupid" (either too low or too high) the dealers share their feeling freely. And, when PCGS is clobbering everyone (or being nice), everyone shares the information as well (and it greatly effects submissions). And, the time spent with a table partner(s) I suspect is as special as a partner in a police car if you were a policeman, or at the fire station for firefighters, etc. These are true friendships that often last forever and you often trust your table partners with more than you would often trust anyone else in the world with other than your spouse, parents or kids.
In summary - I found that being a "dealer" at a national show is very rewarding in ways one would never suspect, especially if being viewed from a pure "dollars and cents" equation. I suspect you do dread a portion of the time there praying to get the heck out of the room (a large portion when sales are poor or the grading companies are not cooperating), yet, when it is over, you almost can't wait until the next show!! I strongly recommend any collector give it a try from "behind the table" and I can GUARANTEE you will never look at a coin dealer in the same manner you have in the past. Wondercoin
Miles also told me we could organize a Lunch for the next Long Beach show, which he would plan to attend. He also asked me to convey his warm feelings to everyone here on the boards.OK- here are some personal impressions of the Long Beach show from "behind the table". Please, remember, I said "personal impressions" - I know this isn't the same for every dealer in the room. In fact, I'll admit in advance, it might be entirely different for many. But, I thought you might like to consider this.
1. For many dealers, how PCGS and NGC are grading at the show essentially "makes or breaks" their show. I can not speak for NGC, but, as far as PCGS, the grading "broke" the show for many dealers. "Tight" grading impacts a multitude of factors at a major show, including a readjustment of bid levels for coins at auction. It also crushes the "bottom line" as these submissions are at $65 and $100/coin. How "tight" was grading at the show (from my perspective)? Well, one well known dealer (and forum member) stood in line on Friday to show David Hall (who was at the PCGS table to "talk coins") a coin that graded MS66 at the show on Thursday. David Hall agreed that the coin had a chance for the upgrade to MS67 and suggested the coin go in for regrade. On Saturday, it regraded MS65 (this, of course, isn't supposed to happen on regrade and the coin will likely get put back into the MS66 holder). Enough said.
2. Collectors were not spending record amounts of money at tables this show (I am being kind here). The dealers I spoke with reported very soft sales overall. On several occasions, a few coins on my table collectors were interested in either ended up buying the same coin at auction (for more money) or decided to wait to pick it up after the show off my website. Collectors are now accumstomed to buying off the net from reliable dealers. And, speaking of paying more money at auction - a couple days ago a 1934(d) Lincoln cent in PCGS-MS67RD sold for around $2500 in the Superior Sale (a fair price). Then, in the Heritage sale (a couple days later), the same coin (no question the coin was not nicer quality IMHO) sold for more than $5,000. Collectors are definately comfortable streching for auction coins, which is another reason the "set up dealer" has less incentive to put out those kind of coins on the table.
3. The expenses are very high to "set up" at a major show". I live an hour from the show, but spent more than $1000 to share a table with Rick Kay at the show (who was the best table partner I could ever ask for). I would have had to sell close to $10,000 of certain consignment coins to cover just that expense - forget that happening for many dealers in the room as far as I can see. Now, we did save some money pre-signing up for the next Long Beach show, which Rick did. And, I did hear that I could save some money buying my hotel room on the net - but, suffice it to say, I see little monetary reward setting up at a major show (see #4 below).
4. Many dealers told me the KEY reason they set up is to meet the "big" retail customers. But, I noticed that many of these KEY customers are right here on the Coin Forum (which I believe has resulted in many major dealers coming here recently as a likely source of business). And, guess what- we could organize another lunch next time and many of these "prize" customers would be at the Lunch table without the need to have a costly table to offer them coins from. And, collectors trade with collectors freely as a result of social gatherings like the Lunch we did, without even the need for a dealer in the middle. Heck, if I just landed a MONSTER Three Cent CN coin - does anyone think I would have needed a costly table at the show to pass that coin down the Lunch table to Bruce Scher at the other side of the table on Thursday afternoon and offer it to him (Bruce - if you are reading- I owe you $20)
Information is key and everyone has access to it now.5. DEALER TO DEALER deals are the most important reason to set up at the show and may justly every cent of expense to do so (and why I will probably do it again next Long Beach) . Having first shot at freshly made coins is very important and enjoying a casual drink or dinner with a close (business dealer) friend is what it is all about as far as I am concerned. The bonds between dealer friends are very special and when the auction prices get "stupid" (either too low or too high) the dealers share their feeling freely. And, when PCGS is clobbering everyone (or being nice), everyone shares the information as well (and it greatly effects submissions). And, the time spent with a table partner(s) I suspect is as special as a partner in a police car if you were a policeman, or at the fire station for firefighters, etc. These are true friendships that often last forever and you often trust your table partners with more than you would often trust anyone else in the world with other than your spouse, parents or kids.
In summary - I found that being a "dealer" at a national show is very rewarding in ways one would never suspect, especially if being viewed from a pure "dollars and cents" equation. I suspect you do dread a portion of the time there praying to get the heck out of the room (a large portion when sales are poor or the grading companies are not cooperating), yet, when it is over, you almost can't wait until the next show!! I strongly recommend any collector give it a try from "behind the table" and I can GUARANTEE you will never look at a coin dealer in the same manner you have in the past.
Wondercoin Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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Comments
reading your comments and am in complete agreement with your views. Loyal
long time dealer members of this Forum who contribute their time and knowlege ,are meeting
the big buyers on this Forum. The trust and respect built up over an extended period of time
make buying and selling coins among Forum dealers and Forum collectors easy, relaxed
and pleasent. I do bussiness only with dealers that I know from the Forum or other
Members who buy and sell coins. We are a growing fraternity and a strong influence in the
coin hobby because of our bonds of friendship. It all boils down to fairness in price, high quality
of material as well as people knowing exactly each of our likes and dislikes about the coins we purchase.
As an example, I must have spent or commited to buy 35,000 at the show among people I know.
The only exeption was Larry shephard who deals in unbelievable commems, and even he was
recommended by several Forum members. Regards Abe
Camelot
We expect that "golden deal" on each purchase including loyality that is not returned on our part.
Plus, we're there for a few hours, at best. A Dealer 'lives' behind his table for the duration, for the most part.
And above all- we expect that Dealer to have a broad smile on his face even when it is just to ask him for an evaluation in grade/value!
peacockcoins
Thank you for the terrific report and insight.
From the perspective a collector, I cannot help but think that if PCGS is angering everyone by being so "tight" or conservative that they are probably doing a good job. Frankly, no purchase that I make will make me feel better if it is one grade higher. What I want is attractive coins at an attractive price. By keeping grade inflation in check, PCGS is doing me a favor.
The alternative is worse. At the extreme, you have ACG, NTC, etc., and everyone knows how much their grading is respected. More practically, by overgrading even a touch, you risk pricing the coins out of a collector's reach, and you risk the perception that grading companies working to benefit the dealers (or sellers, more generally). I was not actively collecting when slabbing evolved, but I am under the opinion that it was in part to protect the less sophisticated collector from being taken advantage of by unscrupulous dealers. As a collector, the last thing I would want to hear on the floor of a major show is that PCGS is giving everyone submitting coins what they expect and more.
Bear: You went greatly over your $11 budget - me too
Wondercoin
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
The only problem this time, was that the tables stretched out so long. The people on one end could not
speak with or hear the people on the other end. Other then that, you did a terrific job of organizing.
Camelot
Thank you for the excellent write up. I appreciate you would put the effort in to do that. It is very interesting to us who do not share that side of the table.
I hope to attend one of the Long Beach Lunches some time in the future.
Carl
Camelot
Wondercoin
I'm not sure if we want to invite TBT's Bryan back for lunch next time.
I ended up spending 20% of my coin budget with him before lunch was even over!
peacockcoins
<< <i>Tight is fine. Loose is fine. Consistent is #1. Inconsistent results in angry dealers. >>
Thank you! I totally agree...whether they are loose or tight is irrelevant. Just choose SOMETHING and stick with it!
jom
the first was a 1886-o Morgan that I cracked out of a PCGS ms62 holder before I got to the show. I submitted it on Thursday afternoon and it came back in a Questionable color body bag for $65. Grrrrrrr. So I gave it right back to them after David Hall looked at it and said it was a au-58 and when i told him about the bodybag for color he said, yeah i can see that. He said to try it again. I tried it again for $65 and it came back again in a bag. GRRRRRRR. remember it came out of a pcgs ms62 holder.
Second coin was a 1880-s NGC ms66 that i bought from adealer at the show and cracked out at the show and got it back as a ms67. So this coin was traded for a 1881-s ms67 which I needed for my short set of S mints which I bought a 1882-s in ms67 to put my set at #17 by itself (no other person is tied with me).
All in all I was at the show from open to close on Thursday-Saturday and had a good time buying inventory. It was nice meeting everyone at the lunch and matching faces to names.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
<< <i> How "tight" was grading at the show (from my perspective)? Well, one well known dealer (and forum member) stood in line on Friday to show David Hall (who was at the PCGS table to "talk coins") a coin that graded MS66 at the show on Thursday. David Hall agreed that the coin had a chance for the upgrade to MS67 and suggested the coin go in for regrade. On Saturday, it regraded MS65 (this, of course, isn't supposed to happen on regrade and the coin will likely get put back into the MS66 holder). Enough said. >>
That is an incredible embarrasment and a disgrace. It certainly doesn't instill my confidence in PCGS. It does however not surprise me. In fact, some of the best purchases I've ever made were buying undergraded PCGS slabbed coins. I don't know what the spread between 65,66,67 is on the coin submitted, but if it was substantial, I would have taken the MS65 coin and had PCGS write me a check on the spot for the difference.
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
If I go, I am sure I will have a table to hang out behind to find out just what it is like (no expense to me, may even get paid to be there). I will get a full show report on Monday.
Thank you for a really great description of the LB show. Through your observations, and those that have responded to this thread, I can get a "feel " for the show. Wish I could have been there, but my vacation is fixed by company policy, so I will have to be content with bidding on the auctions and reading the excellent post from those of you who did attended.
Please understand, you guys that make post like this, there are those of us who really appreciate you, and your time and effort, to make us that can not attend feel included!
Regards,
Wayne
Wayne
www.waynedriskillminiatures.com
I'M HAPPY:
"The level of anger at PCGS by dealers was stunning this show: (I DON'T CRACK OUT AND RESUBMIT COINS)
Collectors were not spending record amounts of money at tables this show (I DIDN'T GO TO THE SHOW)
But, I noticed that many of these KEY customers are right here on the Coin Forum (which I believe has resulted in many major dealers
coming here recently as a likely source of business). (YOU THINK THEY COME HERE TO MAKE MONEY? I FOR ONE WOULD MAKE MORE
MONEY IF I LISTED MORE COINS ON EBAY AND SCREWED AROUND HERE LESS.)
I'M SAD:
These are true friendships that often last forever (THAT'S THE BEST PART ABOUT GOING TO SHOWS, SOLIDIFYING FRIENDSHIPS)
Although i didn't go to the show, i had a bunch of coins being showed by an agent and another agent is bringing quite a few coins
home for me, including a 1794 Cent in PCGS MS 66 and a Twenty Cent piece in NGC MS 67.
adrian
Did you find that being at the show caused you to "miss out" on anything?
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
RC: When few coins are being "made", you essentially "miss out" on far, far less.
For example, I know a dealer (viewed by many as having one of the best "eyes" in the business) that submitted no less than (4) silver Wash quarters, all of which were strong candidates for PCGS-MS68 and one was an absolute "lock MS68"! The coin that was a "lock MS68" IMHO, I would have paid $10,000 or more for RAW (and he would not have sold it to me for that amount) and in MS67 the coin trades generally around $400. When coins like that are not working, you can be at the show, home on the phone or in Tahiti - it makes no difference. By the way, in all fairness, the few ultra modern coins that were submitted at the show (e.g. MS state quarters) were, for the most part, graded consistently IMHO. I have zero doubt PCGS employs the very finest modern coin grader in the business today.
Wondercoin
Frankly, I was very pleased to read PCGS is being tough. Overall I've found them to be quite consistent over time, and regardless of how all of you may feel, it is in your best interest that they indeed are tight, and that is why I for one touch nothing but PCGS. Look at trade magazines and coin shows - notice how many NGC pieces are out there, they outnumber PCGS many fold.
From PCGS's point it would seem bad business planning, but I suppose they have long term views that cater to me and many many others. They definently rule in grading coins overall, and over next best NGC! Its is also no wonder coins graded by them score price wise over NGC most of the time. Enough said, JMHO
Wonderful post Wondercoin, thanks for the effort to enlighten the snowbounded
Marc
Marc: To some extent, you are absolutely correct that cracking out coins involves "gambling". And, the "house" in this case is the group of graders who graded the coin in the firstplace and the "gambler" is the one cracking the coin. However, even in Las Vegas where the odds are essentially stacked against you, there are people so well versed in counting cards, etc. that they are not welcome to play (so I hear) and, in this game, there are also those special (small % of) numismatists who "have the advantage". Very few collectors will experience meeting one of these special numismatists, who could basically grade at any grading service if they chose to, but can't afford to take the pay cut from the lucrative rewards of cracking coins. For these gifted numismatists (natural or developed over years of training), the tables turn and they become the "house".
I can tell you - these people are not "stupid" and, assuming the grading companies grade CONSISTENTLY, they win a great deal more than they lose. From my encounters, these gifted numismatists are seldom exhibitionists (not like say some Grandmaster Chess player who beats 30 expert Chess players at one time blindfolded in a mall) and rarely braggerts. This is why you do not routinely hear about their accomplishments, or even who they are.
Off subject, but, wouldn't it be cool if PCGS put on such a exhibit. For example, PCGS could pull from a large pool of say 500 coins (so there was no chance to know the coins), 50 silver Wash quarters and crack them in front of the crowd. The raw coins would then be presented to the best PCGS grader pitted against the alleged best Wash quarter non-grader and the contest would be who could identify the most coins properly for the previous PCGS grade. Now, that would be fun!! And, I would personally challenge PCGS to bring out their best "hired gun" and take me on in that contest as the first real "showdown". Stewart could have 2nd crack at them on a Lincoln Cent challenge!! "Let the games begin".
Phew! Thanks for letting me get that out, as you can tell by my whining, I needed to get that out.
But seriously, don't get me wrong, besides the collectors, I owe PCGS mostly everything for the business I get to conduct. So what gives...why do things seem to be even more tighter than usual.
morris <><
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
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I guess if I can figure out the grades, the dealers should be able to also. They only hammered me a little on one coin, could have gone 65 instead of 64. I think its time for D Hall to step out of the spotlight at the show. Its embarassing to miss a grade by two points and even more embarassing that your company didn't follow the instructions on the submission sheet.
"Well, one well known dealer (and forum member) stood in line on Friday to show David Hall (who was at the PCGS table to "talk coins") a coin that graded MS66 at the show on Thursday. David Hall agreed that the coin had a chance for the upgrade to MS67 and suggested the coin go in for regrade. On Saturday, it regraded MS65 (this, of course, isn't supposed to happen on regrade and the coin will likely get put back into the MS66 holder). Enough said."
To me, this is unacceptable. David Hall and the folks who work in the grading room need to have a sitdown to determine why such disparity exists. I realize we are only talking about a point difference, but surely the market (since they seem to be assigning numbers based on perceived value) didn't change since Thursday, unless
It IS true that coins graded (essentially pop numbers) ARE being considered when grading (eg, the grader(s) recall slabbing a 66, and maybe others, on Thursday).
Maybe there is (seems to be happening all over CU) a revolution ongoing in the "grading room." Somebody trying to set/reverse a trend. hrrrmph? I'm dying to see the grades on the coins I submitted early in Feb - maybe I'll get a first hand perspective on what I should expect these days.
Personally, I think it is pitiful that this coin, or any coin should receive three differing opinions from members of the same "professional" service in as many days. Where is the consensus in that? BTW, that was rhetorical; I realize the consensus is supposed to occur within each process, not every time it is submitted.
Thank you for the thoughtful post. Without putting you on the spot, do you believe dealers will begin to migrate high-grade submissions to NGC until PCGS eases? It seems to me in most series, the variance in holder value might be offset by the loss from an undergrade. Business has to go on, right?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
1. David Hall was totally correct (100%) - the coin was an MS66 with a "shot' to the next highest grade - perhaps a 10%-15% shot IMHO, as I saw the coin before the dealer even brought it up to the PCGS table (the jump in price on this coin is roughly $100 for MS65, $750 for MS66 and $10,000 for MS67, so even a "10% shot" is still a shot). I have -0- problem with David's opinion here - in fact, if he could, he should "take off the gloves", grab a seat in the grading room and take charge IMHO.
2. I also have no problem in the way PCGS graded the coin in the firstplace - IMHO, they properly graded it MS66. No problem here either.
3. WHAT PCGS DID FRIDAY/SATURDAY AT THE SHOW WITH RESPECT TO THAT PARTICULAR COIN IS CLEARLY WHERE THE PROBLEM WAS IMHO. HOW COULD THIS COIN MAGICALLY BECOME AN MS65 ON SATURDAY? HOW COULD THE GRADING HAVE BECOME SO DARN TIGHT ON 20TH CENTURY RARITIES (I CAN NOT SPEAK TO 19TH CENTURY RARITIES) ALL OF A SUDDEN AND WHY IS IT HAPPENING?
Again, PCGS will fix this problem and the coin will return to the MS66 holder, but, the "tight" grading overall was the issue I identified as what "broke" the show for several dealers.
With respect to certain 20th century rarities, IMHO, absolutely. For example, I got in a raw Jefferson (War) nickel, which is one of the nicest I have ever handled. The coin has a legitimate claim to the MS69FS grade. After extensive consultation and reflection, I made the decision to submit the coin in the near future to NGC in order to seek an MS69* grade. While the coin might be lost forever to the PCGS Registry participants (who can not register an NGC coin), the coin will be available to the NGC Registry participants, will possibly get the recognition it deserves (properly graded in a MS9* holder) and (most importantly) I will keep my blood pressure in check, not having to be potentially dissapointed in PCGS' current assessment of the coin.
Incidently, I have seen (post-1931) coin after coin migrate over to NGC recently in order to attempt to pull a high grade * coin. The * is VERY POPULAR with collectors, who feel very comfortable paying close to (or even more than) "PCGS money" for the same graded coin. I am referring here to certain coin series I have been watching closely, such as silver Wash quarters.
Wondercoin
P.S. IrishMike - I agree 10% is a "wilda$$" guess BY ME. Perhaps a better statement might have been the coin was a very nice MS66 specimen. But, understand that when you are considering buying such a coin, if you personally assess the grade of the coin in terms of that (i.e. "no shot", "junk for the grade", 10% shot to upgrade", etc, it becomes easier to place a value on the coin - at least it has to me. But, to be clear, I have never seen DH speak of "10% shots", etc.
I hope you are right, I have one up for auction in the ANA Heritage sale.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Interesting post.
It was nice to hear an apparently honest and undoctored description of experience.
The issues of grading go on and on. Everybody's own coins are undergraded and other peoples are overgraded. Some dealers and collectors opinions flip flop if buying or selling. I would be very surprised if DH opinions could be superimposed on all his graders. This is as stated over and over again not "rocket science".
I was stuck (pardon the pun) by the comments of John Maben in CW , March 3 p16 about grading discusing strike characteristics and why more liberal grading is appropriate on coins known to have weak strikes. " Therefore you can see that one cannot apply the same grading standards to all coins without taking these and other factors into consideration." I disagree with this as I think it adds to the confusion. A coin should be graded on its merits and be applicable to other mints and dates. So if a New Orleans mint coin of a certain year was poorly struck and the best there is is a MS63 ,so be it!
Totally incorrect! Improperly graded coins (too low) will never be available to a collector at anything other than the correct price FROM A DEALER. The only person that loses in that whole scenario is the collector. Either the collector pays full value for a coin in the wrong holder and then when he goes to sell can't get his money back or the collector doesn't recognize that PCGS screwed up the grade and sells the coin for 10% in back of bid at the holdered grade. Either way he's screwed.
For example, I saw an incredible AU55 1856 seated dollar at the show. In my opinion it was improperly graded and would definitely bring MS61-62 value at auction - perhaps even MS63. I asked the dealer how much and was not surprised by the response - essentially MS62 money. But did he buy that coin from a collector? And if so, did he pay AU55 value? If I bought it and then had to sell it, how hard would it be to get MS62 money back out of it? Bottom line is that if it had been in the correct holder, I would have bought the coin. So PCGS messed up the whole transaction chain in this instance - they screwed me, screwed the dealer, screwed the collector who sold the dealer the coin and screwed themselves! Multiply that by 10,000 times over and that summarizes the Long Beach show.
BTW - Adrians new consignments (the MS67 twenty cent piece and the MS66 1794 large cent) were two of the really nice coins on the floor. I looked at each twice, which I did to only about a dozen coins. What's the matter, Adrian - too cheap to step up and buy the Jimmy Hayes 1866 seated dollar at $125k?
Thanks for an outstanding post. This is the only way most of us can get a real feel for the market. Contrast your behind-the-table impression with the constant stream of "the market is RED hot" reports coming out of every major commercial player for the past few months. Pretty striking, and very worthwhile to have a more objective view presented.
I'll probably never make Long Beach (wrong coast), but it's great to sit here at the computer with a steady freezing rain outside and get a first-hand report from the show. Thanks again, and it's posts like this that keep a lot of us coming back.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I feel very much as you do. I go to the major shows to BUY coins first and sell them second. I find it much easier to sell good coins for fair prices at home.
As for PCGS gmarguli hit it right on the head. CONSISTENCY is what counts. All the prices that appear on the Coin Dealer Newsletter reflect the idiosyncrasies of the grading services. Some prices seem to be low for some grades, but when you see what gets into the slabs for those grades you can understand why.
When PCGS goes off on one of its conservative binges it upsets the market. The coins are worth more than it would seem to say on the holder because the coins are not properly described.
Buyers and collectors might think that’s cool, but it’s not. How would you feel if you had spent a lifetime putting together a great collection only to have the coins downgraded because of some grader at a major firm who doesn’t know his job? Do you think it's fair to have to pay PCGS again to grade the same coins so that they can get it right? What does the term "Professional" mean? That’s always been the problem with PCGS. They are not consistent. And I’ve heard from dealers with inside information that part of the problem is personnel turnover.
And I have personally noted some strong indicators that some PCGS people are not that knowledgeable. If they do know the coin business, why do I see so many PCGS coins that are misattributed by something as simple as a Red Book variety? Getting the Red Book variety wrong, especially when it affects the value by hundreds of dollars, is inexcusable. Heck most collectors who have gotten past the newbie stage can match up a coin to a picture. Why is that so hard to do at PCGS?
I made the issue of grading my observation #1 on this thread for a reason. TDN confirmed what I personally witnessed for 20th century material likely carried over to 19th century as well.
And, IMHO, make no mistake about it, the tightness rarely helps the collector. Dealers back of table cases (the coins not for sale) were flooded with freshly graded coins THAT ARE NOT FOR SALE. Why would any dealer in their right mind put out a silver Wash quarter that jumps in value from a couple hundred dollars to $10,000 for a one point grade difference that he/she is convinced is a "lock" for the next highest up grade? Also, when a forum member brought up to my table a coin such as this (worth around $700 in current slab and 10x that amount in the next grade up slab), I simply struck a deal to assist the collector with possibly upgrading the coin and sharing with him in the huge upgrade value. And, many dealers treat their customers like this and would assist them in such a venture - while perhaps a few others might simply buy the coin at $700 from the collector and potentially pocket the extra $7000 when the coin made it in the right holder next week or next month or next year.
Greg is correct - CONSISTENCY is the only thing that collectors (and dealers) should be desiring
or maybe the ceo will step forward. oh I better wake up I know I am dreaming.
As long as they have record submissions nothing will change
TIm
Please add proper variety attributions to that also, Wondercoin. For those who collect 19th century coins, that can be a very important service.
If a coin is marked as a better, more expensive variety when it is not that variety, that's a disservice to the collector too. A few weeks ago I saw an 1838 half dime in PCGS MS-64 that was marked "small stars" when it was in fact the much more common "large stars" variety. I would have paid a premium for the piece because it was really nice, but the dealer was asking double what it was worth because of the incorrect attribtution. The dealer knew it was wrong but won't budge on the price.
Note: this does not apply if money is no object to you, and you never, ever resell your coins.
It also doesn't apply if the coin is a "monster", "moose" or whatever else you may call those coins. That throws the price guidlines out the window anyway.
Clankeye
<< <i>As long as they have record submissions nothing will change >>
Things change all the time ... that's why people are complaining.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
Please add proper variety attributions to that also, Wondercoin. For those who collect 19th century coins, that can be a very important service. "
Bill: I think CONSISTENCY encompasses consistently grading small stars "small" and large stars "large"
Wondercoin
This is the point that I, a collector only intent on buying and holding coins, disagree with. Any grading service/appraiser is not going to be 100% correct, 100% of the time. Therefore, whatever errors are made can either be errors of overgrading or errors of undergrading. If you overgrade, the dealer/seller benefits. If you undergrade, the collector/buyer benefits.
As a collector, I try to buy attractive coins at a reasonable price for the grade. I have a decent working knowledge of the grading for the series I collect, as any collector should. If the coin is overgraded, ! may not be able to afford. If it is undergraded, then maybe I get a good deal. In my mind, the grading service (including PCGS) exists to verify that the coin is 1) real, 2) unaltered, and 3) approximately graded, in order of importance. I do not think it should be a crutch for collectors who have no clue regarding grading.
The whole point of the post I think is that no one who can grade is going to sell you a MS66 in a MS65 holder for MS65 money. If you pay MS66 money for a 65 holder and decide later you want to sell it at auction, or sight-unseen, or if your widow has to sell it, then who's screwed. Unfortunately, the one who really loses in that scenario is the collector/submitter who believes MS65 must be correct for that coin, and sells it for short money. JMO
The coin in the example given was in a 66 holder, and DH and WC thought it might upgrade. It was placed in a 65 holder instead.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
upgrade lottery. While indeviduals may choose not to play, the game will go
on untill the end of time. When a jump of one grade can mean thousands of dollars, it will be done.
On the other hand there might be coins that for one reason or another were truly undergraded.
You buy the coin and you know in you little heart it has a legitimate chance to upgrade,
are you just going to sit on that coin? In a world where people shouldnt smoke or drink or do drugs,
but still do, this upgrade game seems to be rather innoccuous.
Camelot
Undergrading is just as bad as overgrading - sometimes worse! Consistent grading is what the marketplace desires. Price sheets and comparative auction prices realized depend on consistent grading. Reputations of grading company's depend upon minimum standards and consistency. Without consistency, the marketplace begins to malfunction.
<< <i>CONSISTENCY is the only thing that collectors (and dealers) should be desiring >>
Perhaps this would be more precisely stated as "CONSISTENCY is the main thing that collectors (and dealers) desire." Frankly, though, that will never happen. The graders are not gods, but human beings. They will not only make mistakes (high and low), but their experience grows with practice (i.e., "changes") -- and their ranks change over time, with new members bringing in different levels of experience in different areas ... and they too will expand their experience over time. The pot bubbles and churns, even if simmering on a low heat.
I would be more concerned if PCGS made a policy of systematically tightening and loosening their standards. I'd much rather they had a steady, systematic, and conservative standard and simply allow for the fact that there will be a little variance over time. (We all know where we can go for loose standards.) That "variance" sometimes creates the downstream "opportunities" that member here crow about when they win a crack-out game. True, it's harder to do when the grading "tightens up," but then that's where and when those crackout opportunities are most often created. I can see where that would be frustrating for those "making their living," as it were, with the crackout game, but those who are more patient know that bigger payoffs will appear at the next part of the cycle.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
As far as I'm concerned, I would feel much better now buying an MS67 Quarter in a PCGS holder, knowing it wasn't likely one that was just graded a 66 a little bit ago! I would hate to have a nice collection of NGC Quarters in MS67, only to later find out they were all really 66s and I shouldn't ethically sell them as 67s now that I knew that!
Besides, maybe PCGS is just getting tighter because of all the lawyers going around threatening if the grade comes out too high and a collecter gets ripped of because of it later!
JJacks