Is this deal ethical? F/U - See my comments Pg 3
Blade
Posts: 1,744 ✭
I am a glutton for punishment, so I thought I would throw this out for discussion. I am sure there are divergent points of view out there.
About a month ago, I bought a raw 1913 Type 2 Buffalo at a local show. The dealer had it labeled as MS63, but I thought it was much nicer - lock 64, shot 65. It had natural gray & light rose toning. There were a couple of very small hairlines on the reverse, but they were not going the same direction. I put the chance of a long-ago cleaning at 50/50. He wanted $55, I negotiated down to $45. After the purchase, I told him I intended to send it to PCGS. He said he was curious about how it would grade and asked me to follow-up with him after I got the results. He also said that he stands behind his coins and that if it did not make 63, he would take care of me. This is a very cool dealer.
Before I sent it off to PCGS, I snapped a pic for insurance purposes. I did not mess with lighting, etc, because I intended to take a nice archive pic after it was slabbed. So, you can't see the luster or the color.
Here is the coin. To me, it is a full-on 65. Nice strike, clean fields, excellent smooth luster. A couple very hits on the Buffalo and a good but not stellar strike keep it out of 66 IMO.
So what happens...
So I had a couple options. I could approach the original dealer and ask for a refund of the $45 or I could unload the coin another way. I did not feel right selling to another collector knowing that PCGS BB'd it. So I went to another local dealer. I had bought some coins from this guy before and he has sold me lightly cleaned stuff. I have also sold him the same coins back and he has taken them without issue. I showed him the Buffalo and said I believed it was a nice 65. He agreed and offered me $200 (20% back of Bid). Of course, negotiating is in my blood so I told him I wanted $220. He thought about it and said it was a solid 65 and bought the coin for $220. I asked if he was going to send it for grading, and he said that he would sell it raw because his profit margin was slim on this one and the grading fee would eat too much profit.
So my questions... was this fair? I did not disclose the PCGS BB, but I also never claimed it was original. I simply showed him the coin, told him my opinion on the grade, he inspected it and we struck a deal. I think a dealer is held to a higher standard in these deals and should be able to ID a cleaned coin. My only bad feeling is the knowledge that this coin may someday be sold to another collector who would not know it was cleaned. On the other hand, it is a very nice looking coin and 2 dealers + myself could not find the cleaning. I also think about that 400% profit, which I made based on my grading skills, and I don't feel so bad.
So... should I feel guilty about this? Or is there a higher standard on dealers to determine if coins are cleaned? Fire away, I can take it.
Edited to expand on title.
About a month ago, I bought a raw 1913 Type 2 Buffalo at a local show. The dealer had it labeled as MS63, but I thought it was much nicer - lock 64, shot 65. It had natural gray & light rose toning. There were a couple of very small hairlines on the reverse, but they were not going the same direction. I put the chance of a long-ago cleaning at 50/50. He wanted $55, I negotiated down to $45. After the purchase, I told him I intended to send it to PCGS. He said he was curious about how it would grade and asked me to follow-up with him after I got the results. He also said that he stands behind his coins and that if it did not make 63, he would take care of me. This is a very cool dealer.
Before I sent it off to PCGS, I snapped a pic for insurance purposes. I did not mess with lighting, etc, because I intended to take a nice archive pic after it was slabbed. So, you can't see the luster or the color.
Here is the coin. To me, it is a full-on 65. Nice strike, clean fields, excellent smooth luster. A couple very hits on the Buffalo and a good but not stellar strike keep it out of 66 IMO.
So what happens...
So I had a couple options. I could approach the original dealer and ask for a refund of the $45 or I could unload the coin another way. I did not feel right selling to another collector knowing that PCGS BB'd it. So I went to another local dealer. I had bought some coins from this guy before and he has sold me lightly cleaned stuff. I have also sold him the same coins back and he has taken them without issue. I showed him the Buffalo and said I believed it was a nice 65. He agreed and offered me $200 (20% back of Bid). Of course, negotiating is in my blood so I told him I wanted $220. He thought about it and said it was a solid 65 and bought the coin for $220. I asked if he was going to send it for grading, and he said that he would sell it raw because his profit margin was slim on this one and the grading fee would eat too much profit.
So my questions... was this fair? I did not disclose the PCGS BB, but I also never claimed it was original. I simply showed him the coin, told him my opinion on the grade, he inspected it and we struck a deal. I think a dealer is held to a higher standard in these deals and should be able to ID a cleaned coin. My only bad feeling is the knowledge that this coin may someday be sold to another collector who would not know it was cleaned. On the other hand, it is a very nice looking coin and 2 dealers + myself could not find the cleaning. I also think about that 400% profit, which I made based on my grading skills, and I don't feel so bad.
So... should I feel guilty about this? Or is there a higher standard on dealers to determine if coins are cleaned? Fire away, I can take it.
Edited to expand on title.
Tom
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Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
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Comments
Personally, I would have informed him that it was BBed, but I didn't agree with it, particularly with its history ($45 sold for $220). But that is just me.
Whatever is "fair" shouldn't depend on who the other party is. It's either fair, or it isn't.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I would have returned it to the original dealer. He was operating under ethical standards with a ms63 guarantee. Now you have put another dealer at a huge disadvantage with a motivation to dump a bad coin. He will sell that coin to me someday and I'll get screwed.
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
I have a hard time with you not letting the dealer know. Yes, dealers should know their product, but he paid you way too much for a coin cleaned or wizzed. IMO, I would have thought better of you tossing it down the toilet.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Danglen - I think PCGS catagorizes Cleaned and Whizzed coins into one BB description, so I don't believe this means PCGS thought the coin might be cleaned or might be whizzed but wasn't sure. It means it was BB'd for one of those 2 reasons.
MBbiker - No, the coins he previously sold me he never mentioned the cleaning. I bought about 10 coins and sent 4 to PCGS with my free submissions. All 3 of his coins came back as cleaned. I was just getting back into the hobby and it freaked me out. I sold them back to him. Got 90% of what I paid on 2 of them but came out ahead on the third when I convinced him that his AU58 brown large cent was really an MS63 RB.
Danglen - You may very well be correct. This is a nice looking coin.
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Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
Beginning collector or seasoned Dealer- full disclosure would have been the proper and correct course of action.
peacockcoins
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>. All 3 of his coins came back as cleaned. I was just getting back into the hobby and it freaked me out. >>
what if the person that buys this buff does what you did, they could get freaked enough to quit collecting
Actually, I kind of agree with you on that one...I think the hairlines are evident enough to warrant an AU grade.
That said, I think the deal was ethical. If you make an offer on something, it can be pretty much guaranteed the offer is "as is", unless stated otherwise.
peacockcoins
<< <i>I think the coin is AU. >>
Ditto,and cleaned to boot.
Buyer beware, if you pay $220 for a raw 13 type 2 buff, be it dealer or collector, you should know what the he** your doing.I would be careful buying any coin from the dealer who bought that bb`ed buffalo!
Two days ago an ebay buyer who bought a coin off me had it for resale, I looked through his offerings and saw a gold 2 1/2 that he had bought slabbed by NGC as an AU50. He had broken it out, and resubmitted it and was selling it as a newly graded NGC AU58.
Hell that is a full 8 grading points that the same people from the same company gave the same coin on two different occasions! Is that ethical, once it has been graded, to disregard all previous grades, regardless of what the past grades were? It is all such an arbitrary double standard.
You should be forthright in what YOU think the coins problems were. You should never be bound by some third party opininion that changes more than a hookers clothes!
Tyler
If it were me, and I honestly believed the coin to be MS65 and not cleaned or whizzed, it would have been on it's way back to PCGS with my next submission. I know from personal experience that they frequently blow it so if I believe I was right and they were wrong on one of my coins, they get to try again.
Russ, NCNE
Can't argue with that!!
I had a car to sell last year... a 1987 Toyota Camry. Low milage (for the age--103K), oxidized paint, no air, no power windows or locks, never any serious problems--but showing signs of problems developing. Clutch slipped at a certain RPM, brakes were well worn, needed new shocks. Dealer wanted near $1,400 to rrepair, and even after the repairs, the car would have hardly been worth $1,500.
I distictly did not want to sell to a non-dealer. WHile I likely could have gotton $1,200+ for the car--if I kept my mouth shut--I would have been compelled to reveal what I knew about what was going wrong. This would have seriously dropped the price.
Instead, I took it to many used dealers. Most refused to even look at it. One looked it over, took it for a short test drive, and offered $800. I took it. I feel where this is his business, he should be the expert not me. He did some cosmetic work, and had it on his lot with $1,600 written across the windshield. I truly beleive if I revealed what I felt was wrong, he would have offered me less, then still tried to sell it for $1,600. The car sold within days, and I even saw it around town. I know someone got a car with problems pending, but they got it from that dealer, not from me.
If you read some of my ads to sell coins, you will see I am very honest about problem coins... descriptions like PCGS MS67 but hazy or but spotted, etc. I view these as collector to collector sales. If I go to sell this to a dealer, I will hand him/her the coin and let them make their own appraisal of the coin.
Here's what I think you should have done: sell it to dealer #2 with the description that the coin has very light marks that IYO are consistent with the MS65 grade. You are rendering an honest opinion that is 100% yours. It is not the opinion of PCGS, and you have no ethical obligation to volunteer what PCGS said (unless asked).
Once you tell the dealer that the coin has "marks consistent with MS65", then it is up to him if he agrees or not. With that one phrase, you have disclosed your opinion of the grade and that you see marks. If that's not full disclosure, then I don't know what is...
If PCGS (and NGC and all the other services) opinions were absolute, then we wouldn't have a cottage industry in crossovers and resubmissions!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
If a person has a coin that is truly (open for debate of course) MS65 but they had sent that coin into grading service "X" and the coin received an undeserved lower grade or no-grade why should the person then be ethically bound to disclose this if they go on to sell the coin raw at the proper grade? Is the consensus of the board really that a person should ALWAYS be ethically bound to disclose EVERY know fact about the provenance of a coin when selling it? How about these two situations...why are they different (or are they the same?)
EXAMPLE ONE: Suppose you were to show a coin to David Hall at LB this week and he says the coin is cleaned and would BB...then you pay for same day service and PCGS grades it MS65. Would you feel ethically bound to tell any potential buyer what was said by Homerun prior to it grading?
EXAMPLE TWO: You buy a slabbed coin as an MS64 and crack it out...it then grades MS65. Are you bound by ethics to tell a buyer that it came from an MS64 holder? Should the coin be offered at a discount due to the fact it was upgraded?
Comments are welcome...
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
I know I am one who gets really upset when taken by a dealer, and this new dealer will sell the coin to someone, only to repeat the process. But the next collector may only be able to get a few bucks for it.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
EVP - Yep, that is exactly how the deal went down.
Did the dealer ask me about the history of the coin? No. If he had, I would have been honest and told him.
Did the dealer ask me if it was a crack out or had been submitted to a grading service? No.
If the dealer sawme in a few weeks and told me he was disappointed to see a BB after sending it for grading, I would ask for the coin back and refund his $$$. That is because I believe PCGS could be wrong in the first grading but if confirmed again, I would feel responsible to make good. It would be cool if everyone did this. This seems like a similar argument to the "going after coin doctors" opinions where a coin would be traced back to the originator.
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Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
Wasn't there a David Hall book titled "A Mercenary's Guide to Coin Collecting - Do It For The Money"?
Actually, I think you're pulling our collective leg to start an argument, but a good story, neverthless, including pictures for those of us who are word challenged.
<< <i>So... should I feel guilty about this? Or is there a higher standard on dealers to determine if coins are cleaned? Fire away, I can take it. >>
Ok, I think you even got greedy when he offered 200.00 and you wanted 220.00. But, might as well get what you can at that point, considering you were going for the gusto.
Just don't whine when you get a bad deal from a dealer or they do not disclose something to you, if you don't ask. You said you can take it so this is my opinion.
Why if you had so little money in the coin did you give up on it so easily ? Another try at PCGS certainly was warranted or at least a call to them asking what the hell was going on when they graded the coin. Now without a opinion that is recognized by many collectors but with the opinion of yourself and a couple of dealers the coin is back on the market so another collector, probably a newbie, may get screwed royally. Obviously by your actions you thought the coin had some problems also.
How will Whizzed coins ever get out of circulation if dealers and collectors do not take a few lumps and remove the coins from circulation themselves. I really do not think your $45.00 initial investment would have broke the bank.
My statements are directed at what is going to happen with the coin in a collectors hands in the future if it is Actually whizzed and cleaned. As far as your dealing with the dealer, if the guy does not know what he is doing kudos to you.
Actually when I saw your scan of the coin I thought AU at best myself but I do not have the coin in hand as you did.
Ken
The luster looks like it's basically gone and the high points appear to have massive rub (see Black Diamond's shoulder). While they may have BB'd it for being whizzed it just may have been their way of saying it was heavily cleaned and not worth UNC60 money. All whizzed coins don't have to be polished to within an inch of their lives. MY 2 cents.
roadrunner
You did nothing wrong selling to a different dealer than the one you bought from at a profit. Dealers have no business being in business if they don't know the business. Period.
Ray
<< <i>Lawyers, you may want to jump in here >>
It's so long ago that I can't remember whether it's on your first day, or your second day in law school that you learn that what's "legal" and what's "ethical" are not necessarily the same.
The law holds you to a minimum standard, beneath which you must not go; ethics hold you to the much higher standard, beneath which you ought not go.
IMHO the scenario described was not illegal. Further, deponent sayeth not.!
I need this dealers phone number
Selling the coin to the dealer without mention of any past history, submittals etc., of the coin is kind of shady. If no questions were asked, and you didn't lie, I guess I can see how this can get twisted. The problem here is you have to go to sleep tonight knowing what you did. May not be that easy. Even with a fatter wallet.
I had a somewhat similar transaction 2 years ago. I had purchased a nice ms/63ish large cent, and sent it off to the gods at pcgs, who deemed my coin as cleaned and not worthy of slabbing. I was irate, and bewildered. I went off to a show a few weeks later, and felt I needed to rid myself of this poisonous coin. Sold it to the first dealer who saw the coin, for a tiny bit more than I initially paid, and moved on. I didn't mention to the dealer that the coin had been bagged either. I didn't feel any guilt, as I believed the coin to be good. Lo and behold this same "unworthy" coin came back the next month in a wonderful looking ms/63 rb holder, by yes, pcgs. I almost threw up. I slept fine the night of the sale of the coin to the dealer, I had a tough time sleeping the night after seeing the coin in a fresh pcgs slab. Funny hobby heh?
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
PCGS makes mistakes. The coin might be fine.
As for the coin, it does look AU.
Would you give me the dealers name. I have a bunch of problem coins..er..MS65s that I'm looking to sell.
Similarly the opposite is true. Almost all BB coins that I am convinced have not been tampered with make it the next time. Frustrates the hell out of me. I wish there was someway that I could easily get my duplicate grading fee back.
Unless you plan to sell the coin, why have the coin certified? Things might improve in the future.
If you plan to sell it, get it certified by PCGS. Buyers pay more for PCGS coins to the point of stupidity sometimes and I unwillingly play the game. I recently had a 1914-D AU Buffalo that I had no takers for $200. In a PCGS slab the same coin just sold for almost $300. Its stupid but that's the way things are.
This coin has a ton of luster. I shot this pic with my digital camera and no lighting on a table just as proof for insurance in case it was lost in shipment. The coin has as much luster as this 1936...
Regarding the AU, I will be the first to admit I am not a Buffalo grading expert. I can say there are no breaks in the luster, which I use as a determinant of AU/MS. But perhaps the toning was masking some circ rub? I expect the 2 dealers (each with 20+ yrs experience) would have spot the AU. Also, I don't knwo how accurate the BB label is, but it does say MS.
Fairlaneman - Again, this isn't whizzed, perhaps lightly cleaned? In a way I do wish I had given PCGS another chance, but so far I have made 2 submissions (my free one plus another for 5 add'l coins). I buy almost all slabbed coins. Call me impatient, but I didn't want to wait another 6 months for the chance to try this again. From an altruistic sense, I also wish these coins would stop circulating. If I returned it to the original dealer based on the initial PCGS, do you think he would have noted it was cleaned? Who knows.
BigD5 - Great story and I'll bet that drove you nuts. I hope this dealer submits the Buff and gets it in a 65 holder. That was his expectation of the grade and it is a nice coin.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
You should have returned it to the dealer you got it from but oh well.
Nobody should be critizing you for selling a cleaned coin because unless they drill a hole in it, it has the propensity to fool collectors again & again, every time it's sold.
So you stuck a dealer that has stuck you several times before. I call that what comes around goes around; turnabout's fair play, and getting even.
Good for you.
The key to making money is the sell to someone dumber than yourself.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
The luster on that 1936 is far better than the 1913. The luster in the center of the reverse of the 1913 just dies off on Mr. Buffalo in certain spots. Not what you would expect even on a 63 coin.
Don't just Greg that dealer's address, we'd all like to sell him some of our BB'd coins
roadrunner
Lincoln "sense" (though not making much, IMO). Let's address your petty thoughts. Congrats on being the first to take a personal attack against me when over 20 people have taken the high road and comment on the coin or the situation in general.
I think your grading skills are weak as the coin looks AU at best. Really? When have you and I ever discussed grading outside of this thread? Seems a bit presumptuous to me.
You are cheap (by your admission of beating the first dealer down 20%) I negotiate every coin that I buy. That does not make me cheap, it makes me a savvy buyer. I didn't "beat him down" (your words). I asked him if the $55 price was the best he could do. He immediately said he could go $45 on the coin. If he said $55, I would then have needed to decide if I wanted to pay that much for the coin. Do you pay the initial quoted price for all of your coins? If so, you have put a lot of extra money in dealer's hands over the years.
greedy, by the fact that you had to add $20 before you traded it again Again, I negotiate each way. The dealer is a grown-up. He can decide if he thinks he can mark up the coin enough to cover his profit margin or not. Given the circumstances of this deal, I suppose it was a little aggressive to do that. But he could have said no, his max was $200. In for a dime, in for a dollar I say.
Regarding negotiation, and your lack of comfort with the practice, I can say that you would have a very tough time in the business world. It happens every day.
and arrogant to ask us to give you forgiveness for deliberately hiding the coins history when you knew it would have certainly crushed the profitable deal That is really funny and the first time someone has called me arrogant. What makes you think I am asking for forgiveness? I thought it would be interesting to see what people thought. I'm kind of "hanging it out there" by admitting I did this and I knew there would be some disagreement. And I didn't hide the history. Read my post. The dealer never asked. Big difference.
Thats my humble opinion. Hmmm... using words like cheap, greedy, and arrogant is hardly humble. But hey, you must be a straight up guy to call it like it is. Thanks for your "humble opinion".
Edited to remove information about the designation of "MS" on the BB. EVP sent me a PM that this means it is business strike (vs proof).
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
<< <i>The key to making money is the sell to someone dumber than yourself. >>
!!
peacockcoins
As for the PCGS BB...doesn't mean a thing to me IF I think (or know) the coin is original...although I would resub it in a similar case if I were involved. I've seen OBW roll Lincolns BB for color and cleaning and go MS66RD or better later; I've also heard reputable stories of early Lincoln shot coins going MS65RD>BB>MS66RD. Any reason why one would be ethically bound to attempt to kill a sale by dragging out these meaningless facts? I will generally share anything I know about the history of a coin...but that has killed sales for me for multiple reasons in the past and I think it has to be the personal choice of the seller whether or not to do so unless they are deliberately hiding a problem.
In this case...yes Blade did present the situation as if he had "gotten away with" something to some extent. I'm not sure if that is the truth or if he possibly used hyperbole to try to encourage debate. Bottom line...if he felt that the coin was worth what he sold it for then I don't think he did anything wrong. Did he not buy the coin thinking it was a "shot 65"? Sounds like it at least had the potential in his opinion to be worth $220. Would I have mentioned the BB? I have not seen the coin in person but if it should have slabbed IMO then I would have sent it back into PCGS (I'm a glutton for punishment sometimes).
I feel that this thread should open up more to discuss these situations in general...no one touched my two hypothetical questions that are now buried in the middle of the thread.
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
Is PCGS always right? Heck no, even they admit that.
Is your opinion as good as thiers? Possibly, but probably not.
Is your dealers opinion as good as thiers? Possibly, but probably not.
Did you pass along a possible problem coin? Yep.
Did you give full disclosure? Nope.
If you're asking now, it's probably guilt that you feel. If you feel guilt, you usually have done something wrong.
Can you live with it? Yep.
Could you be more honest? Yep.
He's a dealer, should you hold him to a higher standard than yourself? Maybe. But he's also a man. Would you not want the respect of honesty? Even if he hasn't given honesty to you, you don't look to burn him, you just don't deal with him. That helps everybody, you, the new collector, the good dealers.
The hobby could use a little honestly and full disclosure. JMHO
The second picture is a bit better but it still isn't enough. As to the marks...hell I've seen 66's that have marks like that. It's really a luster and strike "thing" when it comes to Buffs.
Dealers are in this business to buy and sell coins. They should know what is whizzed and so forth...
EDIT: Also, Blade, you mentioned you didn't know much about Buffs. Here's some advice: DO NOT buy raw coins from series you are NOT familiar with.
jom
# of people uncomfortable with this or believe it is unethical = 12
# of people who take no issue with this or support it = 12 (wow, a tie)
# of people abstaining from comment or writing about the AU vs MS discussion = 10
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set