I believe the PCGS bag said "MS" because they use the MS and PF designations on the bag to denote coins by their method of manufacture, not their grade. Obviously, I could be wrong on this point, but I don't think I am as I also have had coins get bagged by PCGS and these coins were obviously circulated yet they came back in bags labeled "MS" since they were business strike pieces. Don't read anything into what PCGS might have graded the coin simply because of the label on the bag.
PCGS's grade is an opinion. More selfishly, I think of it as an appraisal, since its primary purpose beyond authentication is to establish value. As such, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of value, particularly the owner. If the dealer that bought this coin resubmits to PCGS, or submits to ANACS and it is graded MS66, he owes Tom nothing. Anyone who has crossed a coin, or upgraded a coin, or submitted a raw coin that became worth more holdered has benefited or suffered from another opinion.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Since you're taking a survey on who agreed or not, my comments have nothing to do with whether I agree or not. Just stated that if you get burned by a dealer that is smarter than you, turnabout is fair play.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
JOM - Yeah, you are right, I should not be buying raw. I liked the coin, the investment was low, so I took a shot. The first time I got 3 BBs, I could feign innocence. This time, I knew the risks. I'm a type collector so it is tough to get deep in any series. And that is why this Buffalo was the first raw coin I have bought in 9+ months. Probably the last for at least that long.
AG Fox - I like your line of thinking. According to some, these actions may get me kicked out of the Cameron Keefer "Good Guy" club, which I am typically a member in good standing. Do I feel guilty? Not for the dealer, but if I learned that a new collector was burned, then yeah, I suppose I would feel guilty.
Satootoko - I took a graduate school course in ethics (no kidding). The true standard of ethics in corporate responsibility is to ensure that you do not do harm to the least among us. Be they members of society, another class, probably most importantly children, etc. Think about Enron nuking thousands of employees' retirement money or a company dumping environmental waste so that it can find it's way to kid's drinking water and you have the most extremes.
From my perspective, I assumed that this dealer knew what he was doing. It's not like he bought this coin sight-unseen. He studied it for a while and gave me his best offer.
Regarding the comment about me setting this up to create discussion, you bet I did. That's what makes this place interesting.
Tom
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Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
Reading this thread has informed me alot and reinforced some earlier decisions of who to deal with and who not to.
Up here in the mountains when I (a collector) make a deal with a dealer who says "I guarnatee that PCGS will agree with my grade" and that coin does not make the grade I then take it back to that dealer - Refund or store credit my choice. I would not even think of shopping the coin around before taking him up on his guarnatee. If I disagree with the PCGS verdict and still like the coin (I have bought some just because of his guarantee) I will keep it AND the body bag. I have sent single coins in up to 3 times before PCGS blessed it with a slab. Will I tell any future owners of these this fact - Yes I will, then they get to decide.
Blade: You mentioned that you dealt with this buying dealer before - in manner that seemed agreeable to both of you. As someone who buys and sells to the public on a daily basis, I know that this brings one's guard down a bit. A quick aside: I had a customer that used to bring her computer tower into my shop on a regular basis, after about 4 times I quit testing it every time - about the fifteenth time or so she did not retrieve it. After waiting a significant amount of time for her to show up I sold this computer to someone I still have reason to trust and found out that the interior was junked and may have been for some time. Could a first time customer have done this to me? Not likely.. but with someone that I have dealt with on prior occasions I sometimes let my guard down. In my opinion you should have either resubmitted the coin or returned it to your original dealer or kept it in your personal collection. You asked for opinions and that is mine.
Blade (Tom), Can't say I am too excited about this coin but it cost $45. Can say that I prefer to buy coins from people that represent them as fully as possible. Funny that way. Don't think I would feel good should the coin return again as BB, even though it were someone else's bag. Not sure I would ask a Forum if that behavior was OK but the opinions were mixed, weren't they. So? Not a game for kids or nice guys? I will stick to selling used cars.
Well Blade I would not worry about the dealer you sold it to, soon he will realize that the coin is cleaned and that he is going to take a bath on this one.
After he figures out that he blew it he will find a nice coin to sell you, you will snap up this bargan, Yes its another case of what comes around goes around.
The dealer that sold it to you is very honorable, buy from him often because he is your friend.
Mrpawn - That's what I appreciate, a good logical discussion of the issue. Based on your first sentance, if you don't want to deal in the future, that is your choice. I think you could talk to a number of forum members who have had interaction with me, deals and otherwise, and would find nothing but positive comments. (All except Lincoln Sense, who will surely be spun up into a tizzy tomorrow morning when he/she logs on and reads my reply).
Trime - Yep, agree completely. I thought long and hard about bringing this up but figured, what the heck, it would make interesting discussion. Did I consider that this would make some people think lesser of me? You betcha. Will I do this type of thing in the future? Probably not, and I wanted to get viewpoints to help me decide. If given a "do over", I would probably resubmit the coin, hopefully get the 64/65 and keep it in my collection.
Tom
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Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
Fcloud, Marketing executive for the largest computer company in the world. What do you mean by motives?
Topdollar - Can't tell if you are being sarchastic - tough to figure that out on a computer. Yeah, this guy is pretty cool personally, and I have bought from him since our initial transaction, but only slabbed coins.
Tom
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Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
I think a few people here don't realize that the dealer (#1) from whom you bought the coin and with whom you have a good relationship is NOT the same dealer (#2) to whom you sold the coin.
That is one of the things that MrPawn got wrong... (The thread got too long, and apparently he forgot what he read in the very first post.)
I feel that it is a mistake for you to have taken this issue "publicly" like this for the simple reason that too many poor writers and poorer readers will comment on your query. That makes for one heck of a head shaking session for anyone who is following this clearly and closely.
My opinion is for you to solicit a few people and then communicate with them via email. The responses will likely be far less cluttered with misunderstandings and more likely to the point.
The drawback is that we lose out on a potentially educational thread, but I think this thread is already starting to fray... Just look at how many people are commenting on the grade -- that's an irrelevent point to this thread!
Still up in the air about you. I have found some of the responses pretty informative though. I did not intend to sound as though objecting to your purported action alone but wanted to include a feeling of an objection to the opinions of several of the responders that feel it is OK to stick it to a dealer just because he/she is a professional. That person is human as well and so prone to the same human frailties as the rest of us. Including a sometimes misguided trust generated from having dealt with this person before. I guess one should not type under the handicap of holding one's two month old grandson at the same time as trying to get his point across coherently.
This is a good discussion topic and has obviously generated a fair amount of dealer vs collector opinion.
Turned into a interesting thread. Too bad some had to make it personal and not just stay with what the intent or the question of the thread was.
My initial concern was what was going to happen to the coin if it was Whizzed. IMO if it was Whizzed the coin never should have been sold by Tom. He should have destroyed it or mangled it so no further circulation in the hobby would occur. Seems how he thinks it was just lightly cleaned or not cleaned at all I see nothing wrong with the way the coin was sold.
I clearly stated that returning the coin to the original dealer (dealer #1) was one of my preferred options. Shopping it to another (dealer #2) was not.
I agree with TomB. But I know that is not what you are looking for. I personally think you were walking a fine line when you said "I showed him the Buffalo and said I believed it was a nice 65." Sure you were stating your opinion, but with knowledge that the coin came back bb'd, as well as your suspicion of an old cleaning, that seems like a good time to mention that. Again, you probably had no obligation to say this, but I like the golden rule...treat others like you want them to treat you...that being said, I think that you would certainly like the information, so I think it would have been good for you to provide that info. Heck, you still think the coin looks MS65+ even though you know it came back bb'd...the dealer still probably would have bought it anyway.
morris <><
"Repent, for the kindom of heaven is at hand." ** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! ** Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY 28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST TEMECULA, CA 92590 (951) 757-0334
<< <i>Also, Blade, you mentioned you didn't know much about Buffs. Here's some advice: DO NOT buy raw coins from series you are NOT familiar with. >>
This is advice to live by in the coin world. I would never, ever buy raw coins outside of Morgans, Peace, and WLH. Every other series I am just not that experienced in, and some are very tough for me to grade. I have always had trouble with Buffalo nickels.
Interesting thread. A coin is bought cheaply, by someone who claims to know little about the series, from a dealer who agrees to buy it back, so you have no risk but the grading fee if you choose to submit it. It gets bagged, and you resell it for 5 times what you paid for it, claiming it to be a 65, because you grade more accurately than PCGS. This is my read, talk around it all you want. I wouldn't buy a coin from you or do you only treat dealers this way? After all they aren't people they are dealers.
I agree with Mike. I had decided at the start of this thread that I wouldn't buy a coin from you, that this deal was so blatantly unethical that the reasons were obvious.
If you treat dealers differently than you treat collectors, I'd love to be your stock broker!
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Mike & Dwood, I mentioned in the opening thread that I would never sell this coin to another collector knowing it was BB by PCGS. The entire premise of why I think this is acceptable is 2 reasons (1) If I personally believe that a coin meets a certain standard, as does 2 other dealers, how important is it to keep PCGS' opinion in the equation? I guess they are correct on every coin that comes back BB? (2) There should be a different standards for dealers. This guy has 25 years in the business. When I bought the previous (cleaned) coins from him, he made it clear to me that he knew how to grade, even picking out mid-grades like 62's/64's and commenting on PQ coins. He could have told me it was cleaned and he was not interested. He found the coin to be acceptable and purchasaed it. Folks, I sought out an additional professional opinion on the coin. He liked it and bought it.
Michael - I greatly respect your opinion. Maybe the surfaces are AU - I wish I still had the actual coin to send it to you. You'll have to take my word that the coin has 100X better eye appeal in person. It has good luster and nice original color, with some light rose in the fields. Without a doubt, this is the worst coin pic I have taken. Shows what happens without any lighting.
EVP - Yeah you are probably right, I could have limited this to a smaller group. But I'm not really looking for a couple people's thoughts. This seemed like an interesting dilemma that would raise a variety of views, and it has. Probably a smarter way for me to pose this would be as a hypothetical situation, saving me the personal attacks and threats of not doing business with me. You know, like the guy who goes to the psychologist and spends an hour talking about "their friend's problems". But I kind of wanted to stir the pot, and this did.
Folks - Trust me, I'm not out there to stick it to people I know and trust.
Tom
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Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
Nice "marketing" job. But, I will continue to believe you should have taken it back to the dealer you bought it from. If you were so confident that this coin was a 65, you should have tried sending back through PCGS, or either NGC or ANACS. In the long run the hobby suffers because a collector will get stuck with it at some point. Do onto others.
edited for spelling
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Interesting thread. Funny thing is that I'm pretty damh sure that I saw this coin in a PCGS PR64 holder at Long Beach. Yes, it had a few hairlines, but that's more acceptable on proofs, so they grade them. For the record, I don't think anybody got screwed.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Good morning folks! I have had a chance to ponder this further in light of all your comments. And attending a good church service this morning doesn't hurt either.
Given that I think of myself as a fair guy, and a solid 50% weigh in that they believe this to be an unfair approach, here is what I will do. The dealer I sold the coin to is closed today and Monday. On Tuesday, I will pay him a visit and tell him that the coin was sent back by PCGS as cleaned. I will then give him a chance to get a full refund of the $220. He then needs to decide if he agrees with PCGS on the cleaning and he could counteroffer if he still wants to offer the coin at a lower price or he could decide that he does not believe the coin is cleaned and we'll keep the deal intact. I will tell him that if decides to keep it, I would want him to communicate to the next buyer that PCGS BB'd it but that 3 people (1 collector, 2 dealers) believe the coin is fine. Alternatively, I will also recommend that he resend to PCGS or NGC and see what happens and I will split the submission fee. At least he will have full information from which to decide.
I will follow-up with a post on Tuesday night and let you know how it turns out. I guess I'll never get the Mean & Evil (tm) tagline.
Tom
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
Blade - I am not offended in any way by your response to my post. And I gave you my opinion on your transaction. I do not judge you personally as a result of this thread, and if you ever find a suitable lincoln cent for my collection, I would be happy to discuss a fair price for it with you. I am in the corporate world as well. Yeah, its not a perfect system. My comments stem from the reality that I "try" to separate my corporate expectations from my hobby expectations.
The mere fact that this thread has you following up the way you are proposing shows me more about you as a person than anything else. Kudos!
Good luck on the follow up. I look forward to you posting a happy ending.
I found this to be a very valuable and informative thread and thank Blade for bringing it forward. I was actually pretty surprised at the number of people that found the deal to be so highly unethical. Maybe I am a bit cynical, but when I buy any coin I do so with the approach that the seller is using the greater fool theory.
It is also pretty naive to expect the reverse behavior would happen when a dealer is selling a coin to a collector. I rarely or never see any raw coins offered on eBay with the disclaimer, "I think this is a 65, but PCGS bagged it for whizzing/cleaning." These borderline coins are offered 99% of the time as gem 65s with stupendous eye appeal. Generally the rule of thumb is in coin collecting is caveat emptor.
I no longer even consider a raw coin for purchase for my collection. I assume if a coin was worth slabbing it already would have been by someone smarter than me.
<< <i>I assume if a coin was worth slabbing it already would have been by someone smarter than me. >>
Coins, likes securities, have minimal intrinsic value.
So to make a profit as they trade, it requires somebody dumber than you to come along who will pay more for it than you did.
If A sells it to B and B sells it to C, but C can't find anybody dumber to pay more then they did - so they sell it to A#2 at a loss and the cycle starts over again.
It's usally somewhere near the end of the alphabet by time I buy a coin, so I'm happy if I can find somebody around the LMNOP range to buy it.
Many dealers mark grades (or prices) on flips holding their raw coins. That grade (or price) may be what they think the coin grades (or is worth), or may be what they'd like the coin to grade (be worth). Regardless which is the case, neither practice is considered unethical. The estimates and opinions of some are better than others, but someone in business for 25 years must be fairly good at it, and is usually also fairly good at "reading" the person across the counter.
I dare say it's been a long time since any collector told a dealer "I want the least you can afford to pay." So, on a coin with a tremendous percentage spread between Greysheet 64 and 65, not unreasonably, you started out wanting 65 money and he agreed to pay close to that without bargaining very hard. Any merchant who bases his purchase decisions on the opinion of the seller, especially when that person is not another professional in the same field, simply won't be in business long. Therefore, since he didn't have to buy it at all, it sounds like he already had a home for it, or was desperate to add to his inventory, or felt he "owed" you something.
Besides being ethical, your already concluded deal is more typical than unusual. If the grading services had never existed, this deal would have reached the same conclusion, but it just never would have been posted here. If you proceed to reverse it, you will more than likely be the sorry party. You have proved your grading skill and quite simply should be doing more of these deals. Your critics are living in a fantasy world, and should return to collecting from pocket change before this evil pasttime rouses the devil in them as well.
Looks to be an MS63 to me. Will you continue to do business with this dealer? Ethically you should have revealed the BB call on the coin. But greed is always close by and lurking.
Interesting reading the many posts on this thread. I say when you sleep with the dogs, you get the fleas. Hell with anybody else who don't know or trust. Get any new revelations in church?
I think the Lincoln guy was right in his first post. Kscope
Satootoko - I probably didn't word that too well. I was replying to all of the criticism about me sticking it to a dealer I have done business before. For the record, I haven't done this before and I am exploring the bounds of what is comfortable for me from an ethical standpoint. We'll see how well it goes on Tuesday.
ah - Sure, this is just business and I will do it again with the same dealer. If he has coins I need, I'm game. But they will need to be slabbed ;-)
Lincoln sense - Thanks, I appreciate the olive branch. We're cool. Another board member who I have met personally sent me a PM and said you are usually a straight up guy. That's good enough for me.
Tom
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Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
Maybe I'm wrong. I just read a thread where a dealer had purchased a coin for $2200, and he is sending it to Billy for lasering, and AT. Take a look at that thread if you get a chance.
Comments
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I'll take a shot.
PCGS's grade is an opinion. More selfishly, I think of it as an appraisal, since its primary purpose beyond authentication is to establish value. As such, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of value, particularly the owner. If the dealer that bought this coin resubmits to PCGS, or submits to ANACS and it is graded MS66, he owes Tom nothing. Anyone who has crossed a coin, or upgraded a coin, or submitted a raw coin that became worth more holdered has benefited or suffered from another opinion.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
AG Fox - I like your line of thinking. According to some, these actions may get me kicked out of the Cameron Keefer "Good Guy" club, which I am typically a member in good standing. Do I feel guilty? Not for the dealer, but if I learned that a new collector was burned, then yeah, I suppose I would feel guilty.
Satootoko - I took a graduate school course in ethics (no kidding). The true standard of ethics in corporate responsibility is to ensure that you do not do harm to the least among us. Be they members of society, another class, probably most importantly children, etc. Think about Enron nuking thousands of employees' retirement money or a company dumping environmental waste so that it can find it's way to kid's drinking water and you have the most extremes.
From my perspective, I assumed that this dealer knew what he was doing. It's not like he bought this coin sight-unseen. He studied it for a while and gave me his best offer.
Regarding the comment about me setting this up to create discussion, you bet I did. That's what makes this place interesting.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
Up here in the mountains when I (a collector) make a deal with a dealer who says "I guarnatee that PCGS will agree with my grade" and that coin does not make the grade I then take it back to that dealer - Refund or store credit my choice. I would not even think of shopping the coin around before taking him up on his guarnatee. If I disagree with the PCGS verdict and still like the coin (I have bought some just because of his guarantee) I will keep it AND the body bag. I have sent single coins in up to 3 times before PCGS blessed it with a slab. Will I tell any future owners of these this fact - Yes I will, then they get to decide.
Blade: You mentioned that you dealt with this buying dealer before - in manner that seemed agreeable to both of you. As someone who buys and sells to the public on a daily basis, I know that this brings one's guard down a bit. A quick aside: I had a customer that used to bring her computer tower into my shop on a regular basis, after about 4 times I quit testing it every time - about the fifteenth time or so she did not retrieve it. After waiting a significant amount of time for her to show up I sold this computer to someone I still have reason to trust and found out that the interior was junked and may have been for some time. Could a first time customer have done this to me? Not likely.. but with someone that I have dealt with on prior occasions I sometimes let my guard down. In my opinion you should have either resubmitted the coin or returned it to your original dealer or kept it in your personal collection. You asked for opinions and that is mine.
Can't say I am too excited about this coin but it cost $45.
Can say that I prefer to buy coins from people that represent them as fully as possible. Funny that way.
Don't think I would feel good should the coin return again as BB, even though it were someone else's bag.
Not sure I would ask a Forum if that behavior was OK but the opinions were mixed, weren't they.
So? Not a game for kids or nice guys? I will stick to selling used cars.
soon he will realize that the coin is cleaned and that he is going to
take a bath on this one.
After he figures out that he blew it he will find a nice coin to sell you, you will snap up this bargan,
Yes its another case of what comes around goes around.
The dealer that sold it to you is very honorable, buy from him often because he is your friend.
Www.killermarbles.com
Www.suncitycoin.com
What do you do for a living. This may give us some insight as to your motives.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Trime - Yep, agree completely. I thought long and hard about bringing this up but figured, what the heck, it would make interesting discussion. Did I consider that this would make some people think lesser of me? You betcha. Will I do this type of thing in the future? Probably not, and I wanted to get viewpoints to help me decide. If given a "do over", I would probably resubmit the coin, hopefully get the 64/65 and keep it in my collection.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
Marketing executive for the largest computer company in the world. What do you mean by motives?
Topdollar - Can't tell if you are being sarchastic - tough to figure that out on a computer. Yeah, this guy is pretty cool personally, and I have bought from him since our initial transaction, but only slabbed coins.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
That is one of the things that MrPawn got wrong... (The thread got too long, and apparently he forgot what he read in the very first post.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
I feel that it is a mistake for you to have taken this issue "publicly" like this for the simple reason that too many poor writers and poorer readers will comment on your query. That makes for one heck of a head shaking session for anyone who is following this clearly and closely.
My opinion is for you to solicit a few people and then communicate with them via email. The responses will likely be far less cluttered with misunderstandings and more likely to the point.
The drawback is that we lose out on a potentially educational thread, but I think this thread is already starting to fray... Just look at how many people are commenting on the grade -- that's an irrelevent point to this thread!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
negative eye appeal
altered surfaces
slider au/ugly 60
all nicked up and inconsistant surfaces to even consider this coin a true unc
besides having negative eye appeal
even from the scan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i can see why this is called a coin (con) game
but just remember this
karma!!!!!!!
what you give ............................you get back in the end!
sincerely michael
Www.killermarbles.com
Www.suncitycoin.com
Still up in the air about you. I have found some of the responses pretty informative though. I did not intend to sound as though objecting to your purported action alone but wanted to include a feeling of an objection to the opinions of several of the responders that feel it is OK to stick it to a dealer just because he/she is a professional. That person is human as well and so prone to the same human frailties as the rest of us. Including a sometimes misguided trust generated from having dealt with this person before. I guess one should not type under the handicap of holding one's two month old grandson at the same time as trying to get his point across coherently.
This is a good discussion topic and has obviously generated a fair amount of dealer vs collector opinion.
My initial concern was what was going to happen to the coin if it was Whizzed. IMO if it was Whizzed the coin never should have been sold by Tom. He should have destroyed it or mangled it so no further circulation in the hobby would occur. Seems how he thinks it was just lightly cleaned or not cleaned at all I see nothing wrong with the way the coin was sold.
Ken
I clearly stated that returning the coin to the original dealer (dealer #1) was one of my preferred options. Shopping it to another (dealer #2) was not.
<< <i>I think the coin is AU. >>
I agree with TomB. But I know that is not what you are looking for. I personally think you were walking a fine line when you said "I showed him the Buffalo and said I believed it was a nice 65." Sure you were stating your opinion, but with knowledge that the coin came back bb'd, as well as your suspicion of an old cleaning, that seems like a good time to mention that. Again, you probably had no obligation to say this, but I like the golden rule...treat others like you want them to treat you...that being said, I think that you would certainly like the information, so I think it would have been good for you to provide that info. Heck, you still think the coin looks MS65+ even though you know it came back bb'd...the dealer still probably would have bought it anyway.
morris <><
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
www.allvalleycoinandjewelry.com
<< <i>Also, Blade, you mentioned you didn't know much about Buffs. Here's some advice: DO NOT buy raw coins from series you are NOT familiar with. >>
This is advice to live by in the coin world. I would never, ever buy raw coins outside of Morgans, Peace, and WLH. Every other series I am just not that experienced in, and some are very tough for me to grade. I have always had trouble with Buffalo nickels.
If you treat dealers differently than you treat collectors, I'd love to be your stock broker!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I mentioned in the opening thread that I would never sell this coin to another collector knowing it was BB by PCGS. The entire premise of why I think this is acceptable is 2 reasons (1) If I personally believe that a coin meets a certain standard, as does 2 other dealers, how important is it to keep PCGS' opinion in the equation? I guess they are correct on every coin that comes back BB? (2) There should be a different standards for dealers. This guy has 25 years in the business. When I bought the previous (cleaned) coins from him, he made it clear to me that he knew how to grade, even picking out mid-grades like 62's/64's and commenting on PQ coins. He could have told me it was cleaned and he was not interested. He found the coin to be acceptable and purchasaed it. Folks, I sought out an additional professional opinion on the coin. He liked it and bought it.
Michael - I greatly respect your opinion. Maybe the surfaces are AU - I wish I still had the actual coin to send it to you. You'll have to take my word that the coin has 100X better eye appeal in person. It has good luster and nice original color, with some light rose in the fields. Without a doubt, this is the worst coin pic I have taken. Shows what happens without any lighting.
EVP - Yeah you are probably right, I could have limited this to a smaller group. But I'm not really looking for a couple people's thoughts. This seemed like an interesting dilemma that would raise a variety of views, and it has. Probably a smarter way for me to pose this would be as a hypothetical situation, saving me the personal attacks and threats of not doing business with me. You know, like the guy who goes to the psychologist and spends an hour talking about "their friend's problems". But I kind of wanted to stir the pot, and this did.
Folks - Trust me, I'm not out there to stick it to people I know and trust.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
edited for spelling
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Given that I think of myself as a fair guy, and a solid 50% weigh in that they believe this to be an unfair approach, here is what I will do. The dealer I sold the coin to is closed today and Monday. On Tuesday, I will pay him a visit and tell him that the coin was sent back by PCGS as cleaned. I will then give him a chance to get a full refund of the $220. He then needs to decide if he agrees with PCGS on the cleaning and he could counteroffer if he still wants to offer the coin at a lower price or he could decide that he does not believe the coin is cleaned and we'll keep the deal intact. I will tell him that if decides to keep it, I would want him to communicate to the next buyer that PCGS BB'd it but that 3 people (1 collector, 2 dealers) believe the coin is fine. Alternatively, I will also recommend that he resend to PCGS or NGC and see what happens and I will split the submission fee. At least he will have full information from which to decide.
I will follow-up with a post on Tuesday night and let you know how it turns out. I guess I'll never get the Mean & Evil (tm) tagline.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
The mere fact that this thread has you following up the way you are proposing shows me more about you as a person than anything else. Kudos!
Good luck on the follow up. I look forward to you posting a happy ending.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
It is also pretty naive to expect the reverse behavior would happen when a dealer is selling a coin to a collector. I rarely or never see any raw coins offered on eBay with the disclaimer, "I think this is a 65, but PCGS bagged it for whizzing/cleaning." These borderline coins are offered 99% of the time as gem 65s with stupendous eye appeal. Generally the rule of thumb is in coin collecting is caveat emptor.
I no longer even consider a raw coin for purchase for my collection. I assume if a coin was worth slabbing it already would have been by someone smarter than me.
<< <i>I assume if a coin was worth slabbing it already would have been by someone smarter than me. >>
Coins, likes securities, have minimal intrinsic value.
So to make a profit as they trade, it requires somebody dumber than you to come along who will pay more for it than you did.
If A sells it to B and B sells it to C, but C can't find anybody dumber to pay more then they did - so they sell it to A#2 at a loss and the cycle starts over again.
It's usally somewhere near the end of the alphabet by time I buy a coin, so I'm happy if I can find somebody around the LMNOP range to buy it.
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since 8/1/6
I dare say it's been a long time since any collector told a dealer "I want the least you can afford to pay." So, on a coin with a tremendous percentage spread between Greysheet 64 and 65, not unreasonably, you started out wanting 65 money and he agreed to pay close to that without bargaining very hard. Any merchant who bases his purchase decisions on the opinion of the seller, especially when that person is not another professional in the same field, simply won't be in business long. Therefore, since he didn't have to buy it at all, it sounds like he already had a home for it, or was desperate to add to his inventory, or felt he "owed" you something.
Besides being ethical, your already concluded deal is more typical than unusual. If the grading services had never existed, this deal would have reached the same conclusion, but it just never would have been posted here. If you proceed to reverse it, you will more than likely be the sorry party. You have proved your grading skill and quite simply should be doing more of these deals. Your critics are living in a fantasy world, and should return to collecting from pocket change before this evil pasttime rouses the devil in them as well.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
But everyone else is fair game?
Ethically you should have revealed the BB call on the coin.
But greed is always close by and lurking.
I think the Lincoln guy was right in his first post. Kscope
ah - Sure, this is just business and I will do it again with the same dealer. If he has coins I need, I'm game. But they will need to be slabbed ;-)
Lincoln sense - Thanks, I appreciate the olive branch. We're cool. Another board member who I have met personally sent me a PM and said you are usually a straight up guy. That's good enough for me.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
Maybe I'm wrong. I just read a thread where a dealer had purchased a coin for $2200, and he is sending it to Billy for lasering, and AT. Take a look at that thread if you get a chance.
laser and at
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Maybe the coin was a mishandled proof?