I was under the impression that swimmer was a forum member here and perhaps with at least with 2 other member names. BTW that was the number I was going to guess.
Of course there is a double standard. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to those we know and like and withhold it from those we don't know or don't like. Watch the news and TV and see someone arrested for X and we immediately assume they did it and hope they fry. A family member has a little run in with the police and the police made a mistake or are overreacting. Bias is human nature. Is it right? No, but it happens none the less. Yes, we all need to try harder to clear our minds of bias when we sit in the jury box (literally or figuratively) and make a decision objectively on the evidence. Of course, we'll never totally get there. That's human nature. The way someone looks, talks, dresses, etc. will always have some (perhaps minor, perhaps major) influence on the conclusions we reach. Is that right? No. Should we try harder to be balanced? Yes. But none of us will ever totally get there. Some will come close; others won't get any where near.
WH
PS: David, I don't think JBStevens was giving you an AT/non-AT test. Rather, I understood that he was posting pictures from auctions and asking you to say the depicted coin was the particular one you had found in your search that you felt was AT and offered by a member.
There are some wildly toned slabed coins on ebay! But if the coin is slabed by PCGS how can you accuse the seller of knowingly selling AT coins? Some of the toned coins IMO have been "helped" by Photo Shop. I am sure they look different in person.
Banned for Life from The Evil Empire™! Looking for Nationals, Large VF to AU type, 1928 Gold, and WWII Emergency notes. Also a few nice Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars. Monty...
Wayne, Your response is, honestly, the first that has come close to addressing the purpose of my initial post. I think you're dead-on. We DO treat those we know differently from those we don't, but that doesn't make it right to treat those we don't know with absolute disregard or even contempt (which was clearly the case with Swimmer). What Swimmer did was NO DIFFERENT than what some of our own are doing as we speak (with the possible exception that Alan was toning his own coins). It appears that he was representing coins that he likely knew were AT with precisely delicate terminology and approach, so as not to make a claim one way or the other. He got hung. Yet when someone with 1500 or more posts on the PCGS forums does THE EXACT SAME THING, well, that's ok....we know him...he's a good guy...lets move along...nothing to see here......
My point is, that if the rationale in crucifying Swimmer was "for the betterment of our hobby, and the protection of the "less-informed," then why should that not be applied consistently without regard to association or affiliation? What is the rationale in skipping right over 15 forum members' auctions to get to someone who isn't a forum member. When looking at it that way, I have to question the motivation, and in all honesty, I think that those who went after Swimmer did so for one reason only:
To look "better" in the eyes of the forum.
There. I've said it. This place is all about perception, pomposity, and reputation, and less about substance. Am I a jerk? Actually, no. Have I been a jerk the past few days? Yeah, even I know that. Why? To make a point:
WE ARE NOT THE ONLY STEWARDS AND CERTAINLY NOT THE DICTATORS OF THIS HOBBY. Whatever someone choses to collect is up to them. Whatever someone choses to buy is up to them. THEM ALONE, and it is simply wrong for anyone to be impeded in that endeavor. I've built a collection just like everyone else here. I took an interest, I started to buy, I got burned a few times, I found some reputable dealers (like Wayne, who has one of the best sites on the Internet), and I continue to learn and build my collection. That's the way it is, the way it always has been, and the way it should always be. I'm not saying we can't, or shouldn't do things to make the hobby better, or safer, but if it involves selectively applying the standards, or absolutely ruining someone's ability to interact in an open market of caveat emptor...well...sell me some baseball cards, cause I'm out of here.
Suppose I collect AT coins (KNOWN AT coins). Suddenly, my market just got reduced. Well, ok, and if we're going to decree that AT coins are not worthy, then why don't we go after ALL of the AT dealers (including forum members)? Who here has been ordained to tell me what I can collect, and why I shouldn't collect something else? Who here gets to decide who gets anhialated and who gets ignored?
Now suppose I decide that toned Morgans are "environmentally damaged," and in fact no different from "naturally toned" examples (which is in fact true, if you happen to be fortunate enough to live in an area which "naturally" has the right concetration of elements in the environment). I put the fear of GOD and massive retribution into Anaconda (sorry Anaconda, I needed a name everyone would recognize as a major player), and through overwhelming intimidation, I somehow manage to get Anaconda to withdraw all of his naturally toned Morgans from the market. He's so afraid of lawsuits and the hit to his reputation, that he swears off coins (buying and swelling) indefinitely. Who have I hurt?
Certainly Anaconda? Likely every toned Morgan collector in existence? And possibly every collector of coins by reducing the total number of collectors in the marketplace? How about myself?
Free Swimmer! We killed a gnat with a bazooka. He learned his lesson, and he's gone from the hobby. That's all fine and good, but then we just quit. We didn't keep going, on to the next crook, policing ourselves. It just stopped? Well then, the motivation wasn't "the hobby," it must have been something else.
I want more blood. I want a bigger fish, someone that will send a ripple through the hobby. Now that Swimmer is gone, is our hobby where it needs to be? Was he the source of all that *was* wrong?
Thanks Wayne. Your response wasn't an attack, or in a smart tone, and it seems sincere, so I've replied similarly (as I always try to do). Good insight, and very objective I believe.
And to jbstevens, if what Wayne is saying is true, I owe you an apology. I assumed since I had already stated that I wasn't going to reveal the coin until the transaction had closed, that you weren't asking about the specific coin again. I thought you were testing my ability to accurately recognize AT from a picture over the Internet, which to me is a pointless venture, because no matter what anyone tells you, it can be done with reliability (See Lori's thread). If I was wrong, I apologize for my sarcastic responses.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Yet when someone with 1500 or more posts on the PCGS forums does THE EXACT SAME THING >>
The difference right now is that in aswimmer's case, the evidence was presented for evaluation. You have provided no evidence at all, nothing, nada, zip.
<< <i>then why should that not be applied consistently without regard to association or affiliation? >>
It should be applied equally. If you have evidence that it isn't, why not cease the little coy game and present it?
Russ, Earlier you said that you had read "every word" of this thread?
What part of this below is giving you such difficulty?
<< <i>To satisfy the thirst for blood which seems to be the only interest in this thread, here's what I'll do:
I've saved the auction locally (the slab and cert # doesn't show in the photo, so I just saved the entire thing). After the auction has closed, and time has passed for any return period to expire, I'll post it and then everyone can have their fun. I hate to see it happen to this guy, becuase I've enjoyed his comments, sparse though they are, but...I really want to be accepted. So I'll offer him up as soon as any liability on my part has passed (or lessend to an acceptable level). For now, I'm not comfortable plastering the scarlet "CD" on his breast though, so please pacify me for a bit longer. >>
I can't imagine why you would be so concerned with who it is, as opposed to the problem itself, but I'll give you a little peace. It isn't any of your coins which caught my eye. Will this take a little of the edge off for you?
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>I want more blood. I want a bigger fish, someone that will send a ripple through the hobby. Now that Swimmer is gone, is our hobby where it needs to be? Was he the source of all that *was* wrong? >>
Dwood,
Ok,ok,ok…..but who will or what group is going to become the color police? Is it still going to be a lynch mob mentality? Who says that one persons knowledge on toning is better than another?
<< <i>I can't imagine why you would be so concerned with who it is, as opposed to the problem itself >>
As one who is trying to understand the difference between real and AT, I'm concerned, no, VERY concerned about both. I want to know, so I can AVOID ever buying anything from them. Personally, I'm grateful to Gsaguy, Dragon, K6az and the others you call "vigilantes" because it's guys like them that help keep guys like me from getting screwed.
<< <i>but I'll give you a little peace. It isn't any of your coins which caught my eye. >>
And, I'll give you a little hint. If it was, I would EXPECT you to post it - immediately. That goes for anybody at this forum. If I ever list a coin that somebody thinks is AT'd or doctored in any way, I want to hear about it.
Wayne wrote what I was thinking, but he wrote it better. I agree. You know, its funny, today there is another thread about 'if we were all in the room together would we say the same things we say here'. Almost everyone said "I'd say the same thing".
Well, if we've got some Coin Doctors in the forum 'room' (I don't know that we do, but each person knows if they are aware of a forum member posting doctored coins) here's an opportunity for those who said they would say the same things to speak up.
TBT, I have just assumed that the self-appointed hall monitors who escorted Swimmer into oblivion would then turn their attention to someone else. As the righteous and ordained keepers of all that is Numismatic, I think the rest of us should at least support them by drafting a doctrine addressing what is good, and what is bad, what is collectible and what isn't, who are good dealers (forum members only) and who are not (everyone else).
Seriously? If you're asking me personally, I say no one interferes at all. Educate the buyer (or let the buyer educate himself...worked for me), then caveat emptor. This idea of protecting the buyer by exterminating the questionable sellers is ludicrous to me, and even if it were logical, the way in which we saw it play out here is entirely unnacceptable.
No one forces bidders to bid on eBay. It is IMPOSSIBLE to sign up for an eBay account without having "Caveat Emptor" flashed in your face in an undeniable fashion. We're all adults, who can make our own decisions and collect what we want. I'm a free enterprise kind of guy, and if a seller gets the best of me, shame on me. I don't need, and I certainly don't want, dragon, K6AZ, or any of the other legislators of ethics to make my decisions for me.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Russ, I'm happy you're learning, I am also. But that doesn't have an impact on my personal responsibilities. I've said I will reveal the coin and the seller after the transaction is finished, and that is quite simply, the best that I can do. Easyman has some auctions going on now. Whay don't you go after him in the meantime?
What you expect doesn't change it either. You're just going to have to wait, or figure it out for yourself. Its there, blatant and clear as a bell. Seek, and ye shall find.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Easyman has some auctions going on now. Whay don't you go after him in the meantime? >>
Interesting that you bring him up. He's been discussed here on numerous occasions and none of those discussions reached the size or fever pitch that the aswimmer discussion did. Do you know why? It's because easyman didn't show up here spewing a total line of BS, and compound the problem by proving he was deliberately being deceptive.
Had he taken the same route as easyman, (ignoring the forum), than the members would have been warned about his game, (as they should be), and the thread would have been done with and over. Instead, he decided to come by and lie some more. He got what was coming to him.
I've always been a strong advocate of knowing what you're doing before you try to do it....like buying coins, stocks, whatever. And believe it or not, I've been flamed on the forum before when stating that it is the responsibility of the buyer to know what he's doing and not blame someone else for getting taken.
And let me say here once again. Just because I participated in the thread during the weekend's witch hunt as some have called it, does in no way imply that I was in 100% agreement with some of the tactics employed. It was just my opinion that the coins we discussed had been artificially toned and that oven was likely to still be warm.
But at some point, when witnessing what appears to be a crime in progress, I do agree that it is a right, if not a responsibility, to say or do something.
We can argue all day long if there was an intent to defraud. That is a matter of opinion. But again, it would appear that in the court of public opinion, most thought there was an obvious attempt to do just that.
If certain ebay sellers now wish to sell coins they know to be artificially toned but will disclose that up front, I can't argue with it. I don't like it, but can't argue with it. If they themselves are doing the the cooking but now can't stand the heat and wish to get out of the business, I like that even better.
And if certain forum members are selling coins they know to be artificially toned I'll be glad to say SHAME and QUIT. However, I really need to stick with Morgans because I'm not comfortable rendering opinions on most other series...including Peace Dollars.
I've probably missed the entire point of your thread, and if so, my apologies. But I do agree that a continued exchange of ideas is valuable.
<< <i>I've been flamed on the forum before when stating that it is the responsibility of the buyer to know what he's doing and not blame someone else for getting taken >>
Damn straight! In this "blame the other guy" (or is that GSA-guy?) society we live in this is a breath o' fresh air!
I've never said Swimmer was innocent, only that the reaction was uncalled for. I think I can make my point in light of Russ' statement above with one simple question :
Why arent we going after easyman?
If the answer is "Because he didn't come over here and raise a fuss" then my point is made. We didn't obliterate Swimmer for the good of the hobby, we did it for some other reason. Otherwise, we'd be going after easyman as well.
And GSA, you didn't miss the point, and I completely agree that EVERYONE should be warned about known "AT doctors" (I myself asked about easyman before purchasing a coin from him). However, I think we did a little more than "issue a warning" in the case of Alan Swimmer.
As to forum members selling AT coins deceptively, I doubt you'll have to say a word. I mention the fact that there are a few out there now and the sharks smell blood in the water (they are there at any point in time. If eBay is up, you can bet there's a forum member selling an AT coin over there somewhere). I'm starting to see a little humor in it. There is a real thirst for blood on this forum, and even the slightest hint of something controversial sets a full fledged frenzy in motion. Witness this thread.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
What Swimmer did was NO DIFFERENT than what some of our own are doing as we speak (with the possible exception that Alan was toning his own coins).
David, I personally know very little about the finer points of AT detection. And whether or not aswimmer was selling AT coins has little to garner my interest. But after his big denial post (which many members fully accepted) other facts came to the surface, and yet he kept trying to plead innocent.
Do you think the coins he bought and sold 2 weeks later were different? If not, do you think the color was added? Do you think the images of the coin he was selling were altered at any time? Do you really think the reason he spent over a hundred bucks for two industrial strength ovens was for his daughter to warm pizza in?
The thing that got so many people involved in that thread was that the tangled web swimmer was weaving kept strangling himself. If it had just been the AT coins and nothing further, there would have been a few posts and then off the first page of the forum it would have gone forever.
So, in conclusion, I think what Mr Swimmer did was VERY different from what other members are allegedly doing right now.
Dan, I'd have to disagree. Alan didn't come here and post his buying history, that was done by members of this forum. Why haven't we seen easyman's history? Better yet, (and the impetus of this thread) why haven't any of the forum members been accused themselves? I'm still vexed by the entire "if its one of us, its not as bad" thing. Either we're doing this because its good for the hobby, or we're doing it for a self-serving purpose. It just seems so hypocritical, and while Swimmer probably toned his own coins (all of the accusations made against him are certainly feasible, and possible, as was his defense....with the exception of the magically changing photos....that was a reach in my opinion), we simply haven't and will never be able to prove it. Nonetheless, if the purpose is to protect our hobby, we should move along to the next piece of slime (or are we finished now?)
Answering your questions: 1. I think the two coins were probably the same coin, with doctored images to hide the truth. That's the best explanation I can find.
2. I think color was added to SOME of Alan's coins, and most probably that one we went round and round over, but I suspect he did actually have some genuinely toned pieces that may or may not have come from his Grandfather.
3. Yes, I think the images were altered, or switched. That's an easy one. Hard to deny the images changed. Either they were altered, or they were switched.
4. I honestly don't know why he bought the hot plates. They could be used for toning coins, sure. However, they could also be used as he said (for his daughter at college) or they could be used in photography, which I think he implied as well. I have 2 working hot plates and 4 burned out ones in my dark room as we speak. They certainly are a throw back to older days, but for some of us, there's no better way yet of photography or processing. Digital is nice for when I need it NOW, but you can't beat film for depth and color. And to me, digital is cheating in astrophotography (and incredibly cost-prohibitive). After shooting 1 frame for 3-4 hours, I'm not too keen on handing over the film to the kid behind the counter at WalMart, so for a fanatical photgrapher, there is no substitute for doing your own processing, and a hot plate is definitely a necessity. He probably bought the plates to tone coins, but we'll never know.
I also believe Clinton had sex with Lewinski, but he was only the President, and not someone held to a standard as high as an anonymous seller on eBay.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>I think I can make my point in light of Russ' statement above with one simple question :
Why arent we going after easyman?
If the answer is "Because he didn't come over here and raise a fuss" >>
Dwood,
That's a pretty interesting "massage" of what I actually said. Just in case anybody happens by and doesn't read the original, here it is again:
<< <i>easyman didn't show up here spewing a total line of BS, and compound the problem by proving he was deliberately being deceptive. >>
Aswimmer did far more than raise a "fuss". He tried to further play us for suckers by piling one lie on top of another. THAT is why that thread grew to the proportions that it did, and why the threads about easyman did not.
But that is my point Russ! If we hung Swimmer because he was brash and foolish, then it wasn't about "saving the poor newbies" at all. If it were truly about bettering the hobby, it seems to me that it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to see that Swimmer was just one small fish in a very HUGE pond. We know where anouther one of these guys is (far worse than Swimmer) and yet we've left him completely alone. It doesn't jibe with the noble reasons the NumisNazis gave us.
Yes, I'm "coining that phrase" (pardon the pun). Since all this started, I've refrained from calling them numisnazis, but I've been thinking it all along.
I don't think I quoted anything in the post you're referring to, so if I gave the impression that those were your thoughts alone, I apologize. I was using the quotation marks to distinguish my paraphrasing, and not to attribute a direct quote. I meant to convey that that seemed to be the feelings of the forum as a whole, not any individual.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>We know where anouther one of these guys is (far worse than Swimmer) and yet we've left him completely alone. >>
Dwood,
In light of the fact that there have been numerous threads here pointing out easyman's doctored coins, how can you state that he's been left "completely alone". Obviously, he hasn't. The forum and it's members have been made aware of his practices.
In addition, I know of at least one person (me) who has sent him eMails about his coins, very specifically questioning their authenticity, and also specifically asking how he artifically tones them. I'm sure there must have been others.
Click the little white piece of paper with the black arrow on it. It will show the threads you are subscribed to. Check the ones you don't want anymore, and click unsubscribe.
Some Members here want to defend what happened on this Forum to ASwimmer. Trying to "warn" other Members about possible AT coins, etc.
Let's not conveniently forget what other actions were taken to torpedo ASwimmer's auctions! Members here were responsible for:
1) Bidders on ASwimmer's auctions were contacted by howardw007@aol.com, Dragon, in direct violation of Ebay's rules. All kinds of accusations and inuendo were made. His character was attacked.
2) Plans were discussed by Members to win the auctions, pay for the coins with Paypal, take delivery of the coins and then contact Paypal and contest the transaction causing the payments to be reversed.
3) In fear of the above, ASwimmer felt compelled to cancel his auctions.
I'm really interested in who is willing to defend these actions as necessary? Just how did these things help to "educate" Members here?
We haven't posted his buying history? We haven't emailed his bidders? We haven't made derrogatory comments about his dead family members?
There's so much that could be done, and we must save the hobby!
It was NEVER about the hobby Russ, and you know it. It was about 2-3 blow-hards wanting to look good in front of their peers. So they hog tie a 2-bit, part time coin dealer, crucify him, and offer him up to the board as if they'd just shot the Hunt brothers.
And yet, as TBT reminds me, we don't dare touch "our own."
I don't know how they define "hypocritical," (the numisnazis) but I suspect its similar to how they define "justice."
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
DCAM, I have also learned through correspondence with Alan, that not only is he not going to list any more coins on eBay, he is left with such a bad taste that he is not going to buy either. He is scared (as am I) that the numisnazis will now come after his computer auctions, and he just wants to be left alone.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Dwood you stated in another post that swimmer wasn't going to list anymore auctions, and again you state it. He just today listed another page of coins. How many lies from him now?
I know it's not your fault, and I'm not blaming you.
I do notice he's put the word "Natural" PROMINENTLY in the description of his coins. Should be easy picking, mein Fuhr!
Actually agfox, I'm glad to see him back. I didn't think he deserved what he got, and I thought it was a shame that he felt the need to abandon coins altogether. It will be interesting to see if any other forum members bid on his auctions now (other than me).
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
It's interesting that you mention believing that Clinton had sex with 'that woman'. I was in S. American at the time and people kept asking me, "what's the big deal about the guy having a girlfriend?"
I had to tell them over and over that it had NOTHING to do with sex and everything to do with lying. In that case, it was lying to a Grand Jury and to the American people. But Clinton, like a certain coin doctor, always selected his words very carefully....walked right up to the line but knew where not to cross. And whether a guy is lying to us at the podium, lying to us through his auctions, or lying to us through this forum, he's still lying. I think many forum members got really po'd because he came here and tried to play them for a fool and they just weren't going to stand for it. And good for them, I don't like it either.
Now, to my other point, and it deals with your belief that forum members refuse to attack their own.
I came in on the tail end of a weekend bloodbath some number of months ago. I don't remember all the details, but I was told that a certain well-respected board member had spent the weekend pretending to be, oh, we'll call him Doctor Coin. I don't even recall what trouble he was trying to cause, or what he had said, but I do seem to remember that when it was discovered who he was and what he was doing, he was torn a new one. I certainly didn't get the impression that anyone backed off just because he was a well-respected forum member. If my history is all wrong, please correct me as it won't be my first error.
Contacting a seller's bidders and telling them they should withdraw their bids, or that the seller steps on baby ducks, or whatever is way out of line. As for easyman, bondman22, and who knows all else, I've seen threads on almost all of them. ASwimmer could have just said, "up yours" and kept right on doing what he was doing....and he may yet do just that. I understand that that's exactly what easyman has told a forum member.
But for the FIRST TIME in my brief history in numismatics, I'm feeling the winds of change as it relates to Coin Doctors and their sleezy dirty work and that feeling has nothing to do with forum lynch mobs.
<< <i>TBT, I have just assumed that the self-appointed hall monitors who escorted Swimmer into oblivion would then turn their attention to someone else. As the righteous and ordained keepers of all that is Numismatic, I think the rest of us should at least support them by drafting a doctrine addressing what is good, and what is bad, what is collectible and what isn't, who are good dealers (forum members only) and who are not (everyone else).
Seriously? If you're asking me personally, I say no one interferes at all. Educate the buyer (or let the buyer educate himself...worked for me), then caveat emptor. This idea of protecting the buyer by exterminating the questionable sellers is ludicrous to me, and even if it were logical, the way in which we saw it play out here is entirely unnacceptable.
No one forces bidders to bid on eBay. It is IMPOSSIBLE to sign up for an eBay account without having "Caveat Emptor" flashed in your face in an undeniable fashion. We're all adults, who can make our own decisions and collect what we want. I'm a free enterprise kind of guy, and if a seller gets the best of me, shame on me. I don't need, and I certainly don't want, dragon, K6AZ, or any of the other legislators of ethics to make my decisions for me. >>
It is people with attitudes like you have that perpetuate doctoring in numismatics. Because you know your coins, doesn't mean a lot of others do, or have had the chance to. There are new collectors entering the hobby all the time, and I would expect those of us who are knowledgable to speak out when we find certain sellers selling coins that are not as advertised or represented. But it sounds like if you had your way, it would never be mentioned. Let those newbie suckers get taken to the cleaner, right?
You can continue to whine, and make your silly little threads here, but that will not stop me from pointing out coins I know to be doctored. And to tell you the truth, it doesn't matter to me if the seller is a forum member or not. Apparently, you are referring to a modern coin that you suspect is AT. I don't look at or really have much experience with moderns, outside of my proof sets and modern commemoratives which are all in the original packaging. I do have extensive experience with Morgan Dollars, and currently I see none on ebay that are AT that I could attribute to a forum member. If I did see such a coin, I would point it out. And you can count on it.
<< <i>Some Members here want to defend what happened on this Forum to ASwimmer. Trying to "warn" other Members about possible AT coins, etc.
Let's not conveniently forget what other actions were taken to torpedo ASwimmer's auctions! Members here were responsible for:
1) Bidders on ASwimmer's auctions were contacted by howardw007@aol.com, Dragon, in direct violation of Ebay's rules. All kinds of accusations and inuendo were made. His character was attacked.
2) Plans were discussed by Members to win the auctions, pay for the coins with Paypal, take delivery of the coins and then contact Paypal and contest the transaction causing the payments to be reversed.
3) In fear of the above, ASwimmer felt compelled to cancel his auctions.
I'm really interested in who is willing to defend these actions as necessary? Just how did these things help to "educate" Members here? >>
How about being a little more precise DCAM? As one of the "inquistors" I did none of the above. The only thing I have done is make statements here. Be careful with your attributions.
Dave if nothing else should convince you to give it up, having DCAM and cointoast on your side should more than be enough reason to let it go. Your buddy just lied to you again. How many more lies before you get off this emotional and sad crusade?
<< <i>DCAM, I have also learned through correspondence with Alan, that not only is he not going to list any more coins on eBay, he is left with such a bad taste that he is not going to buy either. He is scared (as am I) that the numisnazis will now come after his computer auctions, and he just wants to be left alone. >>
So... now we find out you are symphasizing with Mr Swimmer? This puts your intentions in a whole new light. Yes, poor Mr. Swimmer who has been selling AT coins for months, poor Mr. Swimmer who buys a white coin and sells it as a toned coin, poor Mr. Swimmer who doctored images and then switched them in an ongoing auction, then removed them altogether, is a poor persecuted soul. Please give me a break! As far as I am concerned, with the statement above, you have absolutely zero credibility.
agfox, Sorry if you took offense. I really meant none, and I apologize if you took it as a personal comment. I honestly did not mean it that way.
K6AZ, I don't mean this as a personal attack, but I don't like you, and I can't think of any way to say it without it sounding as such, so I won't even try. Please keep that in mind as you read further.
I believe you are a self-inflated, pompous jerk who thinks that whatever YOU deem as important to our hobby should be accepted as the gospel. While I applaud the intent and inspiration of your attacks on ACG and Alan Hagar, the "hey look what I'm doing" tone of many of your posts gives me an undeniable impression of self-glorifying, holier-than-thou propaganda. I also believe you are the quintessential slab-snob, proudly waving the pompous, arrogant, elitist attitude that so many of my fellow collectors detest. I assure you I am no proponent of doctoring, and would do anything in my power to stop it AS LONG AS I DON'T INFRINGE ON ANOTHER'S ENJOYMENT OF THE HOBBY. Unfortunately, I don't think you can say the same, in earnest. You would, and have done everything imagineable, even in the face of competent FREE legal advice to the contrary, to draw attention to yourself and your "noble deeds." It isn't about ACG anymore you know? Its all about K6AZ being the big bad standard bearer and leader of the noble masses. In my opinion, you are doing more harm for our hobby than good, and the impression you give "newbies" is far worse than the damage a $50 AT Morgan could ever cause. Honestly, I truly believe that we should welcome Alan Swimmer back, and cast you into the abyss. That would be the better scenario from the perspective of our hobby, at least in my opinion.
Fire away admiral. How soon can you have "screwdwood.com" up and running?
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
DWood, I have not joined into the fray so far but here goes! 1. No one should ever interfere with a persons auctions on EBAY. That is clearly against the rules and can get you sued. But I will say that Mr Swimmer is less than honest and forthright about what he says. And furthermore the coins are very poorly done. If you buy those things and send them to PCGS you will loose a lot of money. Your obsession with helping a snake oil salesman will cost you money my friend. Let him help himself!
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
I do notice he's put the word "Natural" PROMINENTLY in the description of his coins. Should be easy picking, mein Fuhr!
Actually agfox, I'm glad to see him back. I didn't think he deserved what he got, and I thought it was a shame that he felt the need to abandon coins altogether. It will be interesting to see if any other forum members bid on his auctions now (other than me). >>
You have just gone into negative credibility territory. He got exactly what he deserved with his lies on top of his AT garbage.
And I strongly object to your use of German and tagging some of us as "numisnazis". I suggest you research what a real Nazi was.
<< <i>Dave if nothing else should convince you to give it up, having DCAM and cointoast on your side should more than be enough reason to let it go. Your buddy just lied to you again. How many more lies before you get off this emotional and sad crusade? >>
And you are the banker, right? You've said you were a bank president in the past, correct? I've known a good number of bank presidents over the years. Most have them have taken a 3-10 year stay in the pokey.
I'm not on anybody's "side", as you incorrectly stated. I just know rules were broken and you would be one that defends the actions. Rules and ethics mean a lot to me, though seem to be overlooked by bank presidents.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<<<K6AZ, I don't mean this as a personal attack, but I don't like you, and I can't think of any way to say it without it sounding as such, so I won't even try. Please keep that in mind as you read further.>>>
Good, because the feeling is mutual. Anyone who freely throws around the term "Nazi" and make Germanic slurs is on my s-list.
<<<I believe you are a self-inflated, pompous jerk who thinks that whatever YOU deem as important to our hobby should be accepted as the gospel. While I applaud the intent and inspiration of your attacks on ACG and Alan Hagar, the "hey look what I'm doing" tone of many of your posts gives me an undeniable impression of self-glorifying, holier-than-thou propaganda.>>>
With this statement, you are showing what a small mind you have. And you are basing your judgment of me as a "self-inflated pompus jerk" over which posts? Outside of this AT business the last few days, I haven't made many posts here outside of some me-too and post-a-picture threads. Somehow, I think your whole attitued is swayed by the fact that you think Alan Swimmer is a poor victim.
<<<I also believe you are the quintessential slab-snob, proudly waving the pompous, arrogant, elitist attitude that so many of my fellow collectors detest.>>>
Really? Here you show you don't know what you are talking about. I just bought hundreds of raw Morgans, and have sold some with the purchasers being very happy with them. I will tell you though, that slabs have made the coin market a much safer place compared to what it was 20+ years ago. Sounds to me you are one of these guys who just can't accept the new marketplace in numismatics. And what are you doing on a PCGS board if you have such a problem with slabs? Seems to me you would be on one of the boards that isn't sponsored by one of the respected grading companies.
<<<I assure you I am no proponent of doctoring, and would do anything in my power to stop it AS LONG AS I DON'T INFRINGE ON ANOTHER'S ENJOYMENT OF THE HOBBY. Unfortunately, I don't think you can say the same, in earnest.>>>
And pray tell, what have I done that infringes on anyone's enjoyment of the hobby? The only thing I have done is to post here on this board. That spoils your enjoyment of the hobby? You are seriously delusional. No one is forcing you to read AT threads.
<<<You would, and have done everything imagineable, even in the face of competent FREE legal advice to the contrary, to draw attention to yourself and your "noble deeds." It isn't about ACG anymore you know? Its all about K6AZ being the big bad standard bearer and leader of the noble masses. In my opinion, you are doing more harm for our hobby than good, and the impression you give "newbies" is far worse than the damage a $50 AT Morgan could ever cause. Honestly, I truly believe that we should welcome Alan Swimmer back, and cast you into the abyss. That would be the better scenario from the perspective of our hobby, at least in my opinion.>>>
First of all, in regards to "free legal advice". It has been my experience on the internet that 9 out of 10 people who claim to be lawyers on the internet aren't. The one in ten who is, doesn't practice civil litigation. I have a very fine lawyer, thank you, and he costs a buck or two. With the second part of your statement above, it is obvious your gripe is you are so offended that Swimmer got torn down. He deserved it. And as I have said before, your comments aren't going to change what I do. Perhaps now you will do what others have done, go over to the NGC board and cry about that big bad bully "across the street".
By the way, please point me to the last thread I posted about ACG.
Comments
How do you prove that the square root of 2 is irrational?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
WH
PS: David, I don't think JBStevens was giving you an AT/non-AT test. Rather, I understood that he was posting pictures from auctions and asking you to say the depicted coin was the particular one you had found in your search that you felt was AT and offered by a member.
<< <i>How do you prove that the square root of 2 is irrational? >>
Because you can't represent it as a fraction.
How's that?
jom
Looking for Nationals, Large VF to AU type, 1928 Gold, and WWII Emergency notes. Also a few nice Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars.
Monty...
Because you can't represent it as a fraction.
You just stated the definition of irrational. Why can't you represent root(2) as a rational number?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
jom
<< <i>Why can't you represent root(2) as a rational number? >>
Because it's an irrational number. lol
jom
wayne:
yes, that was what I was trying to do and thank you for pointing it out.
Jom:
Where were you when I was taking those math classes in college?!?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Your response is, honestly, the first that has come close to addressing the purpose of my initial post. I think you're dead-on. We DO treat those we know differently from those we don't, but that doesn't make it right to treat those we don't know with absolute disregard or even contempt (which was clearly the case with Swimmer). What Swimmer did was NO DIFFERENT than what some of our own are doing as we speak (with the possible exception that Alan was toning his own coins). It appears that he was representing coins that he likely knew were AT with precisely delicate terminology and approach, so as not to make a claim one way or the other. He got hung. Yet when someone with 1500 or more posts on the PCGS forums does THE EXACT SAME THING, well, that's ok....we know him...he's a good guy...lets move along...nothing to see here......
My point is, that if the rationale in crucifying Swimmer was "for the betterment of our hobby, and the protection of the "less-informed," then why should that not be applied consistently without regard to association or affiliation? What is the rationale in skipping right over 15 forum members' auctions to get to someone who isn't a forum member. When looking at it that way, I have to question the motivation, and in all honesty, I think that those who went after Swimmer did so for one reason only:
To look "better" in the eyes of the forum.
There. I've said it. This place is all about perception, pomposity, and reputation, and less about substance. Am I a jerk? Actually, no. Have I been a jerk the past few days? Yeah, even I know that. Why? To make a point:
WE ARE NOT THE ONLY STEWARDS AND CERTAINLY NOT THE DICTATORS OF THIS HOBBY. Whatever someone choses to collect is up to them. Whatever someone choses to buy is up to them. THEM ALONE, and it is simply wrong for anyone to be impeded in that endeavor. I've built a collection just like everyone else here. I took an interest, I started to buy, I got burned a few times, I found some reputable dealers (like Wayne, who has one of the best sites on the Internet), and I continue to learn and build my collection. That's the way it is, the way it always has been, and the way it should always be. I'm not saying we can't, or shouldn't do things to make the hobby better, or safer, but if it involves selectively applying the standards, or absolutely ruining someone's ability to interact in an open market of caveat emptor...well...sell me some baseball cards, cause I'm out of here.
Suppose I collect AT coins (KNOWN AT coins). Suddenly, my market just got reduced. Well, ok, and if we're going to decree that AT coins are not worthy, then why don't we go after ALL of the AT dealers (including forum members)? Who here has been ordained to tell me what I can collect, and why I shouldn't collect something else? Who here gets to decide who gets anhialated and who gets ignored?
Now suppose I decide that toned Morgans are "environmentally damaged," and in fact no different from "naturally toned" examples (which is in fact true, if you happen to be fortunate enough to live in an area which "naturally" has the right concetration of elements in the environment). I put the fear of GOD and massive retribution into Anaconda (sorry Anaconda, I needed a name everyone would recognize as a major player), and through overwhelming intimidation, I somehow manage to get Anaconda to withdraw all of his naturally toned Morgans from the market. He's so afraid of lawsuits and the hit to his reputation, that he swears off coins (buying and swelling) indefinitely. Who have I hurt?
Certainly Anaconda?
Likely every toned Morgan collector in existence?
And possibly every collector of coins by reducing the total number of collectors in the marketplace?
How about myself?
Free Swimmer! We killed a gnat with a bazooka. He learned his lesson, and he's gone from the hobby. That's all fine and good, but then we just quit. We didn't keep going, on to the next crook, policing ourselves. It just stopped? Well then, the motivation wasn't "the hobby," it must have been something else.
I want more blood. I want a bigger fish, someone that will send a ripple through the hobby. Now that Swimmer is gone, is our hobby where it needs to be? Was he the source of all that *was* wrong?
Thanks Wayne. Your response wasn't an attack, or in a smart tone, and it seems sincere, so I've replied similarly (as I always try to do). Good insight, and very objective I believe.
And to jbstevens, if what Wayne is saying is true, I owe you an apology. I assumed since I had already stated that I wasn't going to reveal the coin until the transaction had closed, that you weren't asking about the specific coin again. I thought you were testing my ability to accurately recognize AT from a picture over the Internet, which to me is a pointless venture, because no matter what anyone tells you, it can be done with reliability (See Lori's thread). If I was wrong, I apologize for my sarcastic responses.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Yet when someone with 1500 or more posts on the PCGS forums does THE EXACT SAME THING >>
The difference right now is that in aswimmer's case, the evidence was presented for evaluation. You have provided no evidence at all, nothing, nada, zip.
<< <i>then why should that not be applied consistently without regard to association or affiliation? >>
It should be applied equally. If you have evidence that it isn't, why not cease the little coy game and present it?
Russ, NCNE
Earlier you said that you had read "every word" of this thread?
What part of this below is giving you such difficulty?
<< <i>To satisfy the thirst for blood which seems to be the only interest in this thread, here's what I'll do:
I've saved the auction locally (the slab and cert # doesn't show in the photo, so I just saved the entire thing). After the auction has closed, and time has passed for any return period to expire, I'll post it and then everyone can have their fun. I hate to see it happen to this guy, becuase I've enjoyed his comments, sparse though they are, but...I really want to be accepted. So I'll offer him up as soon as any liability on my part has passed (or lessend to an acceptable level). For now, I'm not comfortable plastering the scarlet "CD" on his breast though, so please pacify me for a bit longer. >>
I can't imagine why you would be so concerned with who it is, as opposed to the problem itself, but I'll give you a little peace. It isn't any of your coins which caught my eye. Will this take a little of the edge off for you?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>I want more blood. I want a bigger fish, someone that will send a ripple through the hobby. Now that Swimmer is gone, is our hobby where it needs to be? Was he the source of all that *was* wrong?
>>
Dwood,
Ok,ok,ok…..but who will or what group is going to become the color police? Is it still going to be a lynch mob mentality? Who says that one persons knowledge on toning is better than another?
Please address this question.
TBT
<< <i>I can't imagine why you would be so concerned with who it is, as opposed to the problem itself >>
As one who is trying to understand the difference between real and AT, I'm concerned, no, VERY concerned about both. I want to know, so I can AVOID ever buying anything from them. Personally, I'm grateful to Gsaguy, Dragon, K6az and the others you call "vigilantes" because it's guys like them that help keep guys like me from getting screwed.
<< <i>but I'll give you a little peace. It isn't any of your coins which caught my eye. >>
And, I'll give you a little hint. If it was, I would EXPECT you to post it - immediately. That goes for anybody at this forum. If I ever list a coin that somebody thinks is AT'd or doctored in any way, I want to hear about it.
Russ, NCNE
yes it is wrong totally wrong and they are low class crooks to do this yes yes yes
yes .....................they know exactly what they are doing
yes yes yes it is terrible and a shame and wrong
but since i am not the worlds policeman and i would rather be happy then tell everybody this and be right but not liked at all and not talked to
i guess i would rather be happy then right
sincerely michael
sincerely michael
Would we say the same thing if we were in a room together thread
Well, if we've got some Coin Doctors in the forum 'room' (I don't know that we do, but each person knows if they are aware of a forum member posting doctored coins) here's an opportunity for those who said they would say the same things to speak up.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
I have just assumed that the self-appointed hall monitors who escorted Swimmer into oblivion would then turn their attention to someone else. As the righteous and ordained keepers of all that is Numismatic, I think the rest of us should at least support them by drafting a doctrine addressing what is good, and what is bad, what is collectible and what isn't, who are good dealers (forum members only) and who are not (everyone else).
Seriously? If you're asking me personally, I say no one interferes at all. Educate the buyer (or let the buyer educate himself...worked for me), then caveat emptor. This idea of protecting the buyer by exterminating the questionable sellers is ludicrous to me, and even if it were logical, the way in which we saw it play out here is entirely unnacceptable.
No one forces bidders to bid on eBay. It is IMPOSSIBLE to sign up for an eBay account without having "Caveat Emptor" flashed in your face in an undeniable fashion. We're all adults, who can make our own decisions and collect what we want. I'm a free enterprise kind of guy, and if a seller gets the best of me, shame on me. I don't need, and I certainly don't want, dragon, K6AZ, or any of the other legislators of ethics to make my decisions for me.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I'm happy you're learning, I am also. But that doesn't have an impact on my personal responsibilities. I've said I will reveal the coin and the seller after the transaction is finished, and that is quite simply, the best that I can do. Easyman has some auctions going on now. Whay don't you go after him in the meantime?
What you expect doesn't change it either. You're just going to have to wait, or figure it out for yourself. Its there, blatant and clear as a bell. Seek, and ye shall find.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Where were you when I was taking those math classes in college?!? >>
I was in Engineering school. Figures...doesn't it? lol
jom
<< <i>Easyman has some auctions going on now. Whay don't you go after him in the meantime? >>
Interesting that you bring him up. He's been discussed here on numerous occasions and none of those discussions reached the size or fever pitch that the aswimmer discussion did. Do you know why? It's because easyman didn't show up here spewing a total line of BS, and compound the problem by proving he was deliberately being deceptive.
Had he taken the same route as easyman, (ignoring the forum), than the members would have been warned about his game, (as they should be), and the thread would have been done with and over. Instead, he decided to come by and lie some more. He got what was coming to him.
Russ, NCNE
I've always been a strong advocate of knowing what you're doing before you try to do it....like buying coins, stocks, whatever. And believe it or not, I've been flamed on the forum before when stating that it is the responsibility of the buyer to know what he's doing and not blame someone else for getting taken.
And let me say here once again. Just because I participated in the thread during the weekend's witch hunt as some have called it, does in no way imply that I was in 100% agreement with some of the tactics employed. It was just my opinion that the coins we discussed had been artificially toned and that oven was likely to still be warm.
But at some point, when witnessing what appears to be a crime in progress, I do agree that it is a right, if not a responsibility, to say or do something.
We can argue all day long if there was an intent to defraud. That is a matter of opinion. But again, it would appear that in the court of public opinion, most thought there was an obvious attempt to do just that.
If certain ebay sellers now wish to sell coins they know to be artificially toned but will disclose that up front, I can't argue with it. I don't like it, but can't argue with it. If they themselves are doing the the cooking but now can't stand the heat and wish to get out of the business, I like that even better.
And if certain forum members are selling coins they know to be artificially toned I'll be glad to say SHAME and QUIT. However, I really need to stick with Morgans because I'm not comfortable rendering opinions on most other series...including Peace Dollars.
I've probably missed the entire point of your thread, and if so, my apologies. But I do agree that a continued exchange of ideas is valuable.
GSAGUY
<< <i>I've been flamed on the forum before when stating that it is the responsibility of the buyer to know what he's doing and not blame someone else for getting taken >>
Damn straight!
jom
Why arent we going after easyman?
If the answer is "Because he didn't come over here and raise a fuss" then my point is made. We didn't obliterate Swimmer for the good of the hobby, we did it for some other reason. Otherwise, we'd be going after easyman as well.
And GSA, you didn't miss the point, and I completely agree that EVERYONE should be warned about known "AT doctors" (I myself asked about easyman before purchasing a coin from him). However, I think we did a little more than "issue a warning" in the case of Alan Swimmer.
As to forum members selling AT coins deceptively, I doubt you'll have to say a word. I mention the fact that there are a few out there now and the sharks smell blood in the water (they are there at any point in time. If eBay is up, you can bet there's a forum member selling an AT coin over there somewhere). I'm starting to see a little humor in it. There is a real thirst for blood on this forum, and even the slightest hint of something controversial sets a full fledged frenzy in motion. Witness this thread.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
David, I personally know very little about the finer points of AT detection. And whether or not aswimmer was selling AT coins has little to garner my interest. But after his big denial post (which many members fully accepted) other facts came to the surface, and yet he kept trying to plead innocent.
Do you think the coins he bought and sold 2 weeks later were different?
If not, do you think the color was added?
Do you think the images of the coin he was selling were altered at any time?
Do you really think the reason he spent over a hundred bucks for two industrial strength ovens was for his daughter to warm pizza in?
The thing that got so many people involved in that thread was that the tangled web swimmer was weaving kept strangling himself. If it had just been the AT coins and nothing further, there would have been a few posts and then off the first page of the forum it would have gone forever.
So, in conclusion, I think what Mr Swimmer did was VERY different from what other members are allegedly doing right now.
I'd have to disagree. Alan didn't come here and post his buying history, that was done by members of this forum. Why haven't we seen easyman's history? Better yet, (and the impetus of this thread) why haven't any of the forum members been accused themselves? I'm still vexed by the entire "if its one of us, its not as bad" thing. Either we're doing this because its good for the hobby, or we're doing it for a self-serving purpose. It just seems so hypocritical, and while Swimmer probably toned his own coins (all of the accusations made against him are certainly feasible, and possible, as was his defense....with the exception of the magically changing photos....that was a reach in my opinion), we simply haven't and will never be able to prove it. Nonetheless, if the purpose is to protect our hobby, we should move along to the next piece of slime (or are we finished now?)
Answering your questions:
1. I think the two coins were probably the same coin, with doctored images to hide the truth. That's the best explanation I can find.
2. I think color was added to SOME of Alan's coins, and most probably that one we went round and round over, but I suspect he did actually have some genuinely toned pieces that may or may not have come from his Grandfather.
3. Yes, I think the images were altered, or switched. That's an easy one. Hard to deny the images changed. Either they were altered, or they were switched.
4. I honestly don't know why he bought the hot plates. They could be used for toning coins, sure. However, they could also be used as he said (for his daughter at college) or they could be used in photography, which I think he implied as well. I have 2 working hot plates and 4 burned out ones in my dark room as we speak. They certainly are a throw back to older days, but for some of us, there's no better way yet of photography or processing. Digital is nice for when I need it NOW, but you can't beat film for depth and color. And to me, digital is cheating in astrophotography (and incredibly cost-prohibitive). After shooting 1 frame for 3-4 hours, I'm not too keen on handing over the film to the kid behind the counter at WalMart, so for a fanatical photgrapher, there is no substitute for doing your own processing, and a hot plate is definitely a necessity. He probably bought the plates to tone coins, but we'll never know.
I also believe Clinton had sex with Lewinski, but he was only the President, and not someone held to a standard as high as an anonymous seller on eBay.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>I think I can make my point in light of Russ' statement above with one simple question :
Why arent we going after easyman?
If the answer is "Because he didn't come over here and raise a fuss" >>
Dwood,
That's a pretty interesting "massage" of what I actually said. Just in case anybody happens by and doesn't read the original, here it is again:
<< <i>easyman didn't show up here spewing a total line of BS, and compound the problem by proving he was deliberately being deceptive. >>
Aswimmer did far more than raise a "fuss". He tried to further play us for suckers by piling one lie on top of another. THAT is why that thread grew to the proportions that it did, and why the threads about easyman did not.
Russ, NCNE
If we hung Swimmer because he was brash and foolish, then it wasn't about "saving the poor newbies" at all. If it were truly about bettering the hobby, it seems to me that it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to see that Swimmer was just one small fish in a very HUGE pond. We know where anouther one of these guys is (far worse than Swimmer) and yet we've left him completely alone. It doesn't jibe with the noble reasons the NumisNazis gave us.
Yes, I'm "coining that phrase" (pardon the pun). Since all this started, I've refrained from calling them numisnazis, but I've been thinking it all along.
I don't think I quoted anything in the post you're referring to, so if I gave the impression that those were your thoughts alone, I apologize. I was using the quotation marks to distinguish my paraphrasing, and not to attribute a direct quote. I meant to convey that that seemed to be the feelings of the forum as a whole, not any individual.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Go back to the original topic or let this thread die.
I only sign on to threads that I want to follow and this one has gone south and keeps emailing (don't know how to un join a thread)
<< <i>We know where anouther one of these guys is (far worse than Swimmer) and yet we've left him completely alone. >>
Dwood,
In light of the fact that there have been numerous threads here pointing out easyman's doctored coins, how can you state that he's been left "completely alone". Obviously, he hasn't. The forum and it's members have been made aware of his practices.
In addition, I know of at least one person (me) who has sent him eMails about his coins, very specifically questioning their authenticity, and also specifically asking how he artifically tones them. I'm sure there must have been others.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>(don't know how to un join a thread) >>
TBT,
Click the little white piece of paper with the black arrow on it. It will show the threads you are subscribed to. Check the ones you don't want anymore, and click unsubscribe.
Russ, NCNE
Let's not conveniently forget what other actions were taken to torpedo ASwimmer's auctions! Members here were responsible for:
1) Bidders on ASwimmer's auctions were contacted by howardw007@aol.com, Dragon, in direct violation of Ebay's rules. All kinds of accusations and inuendo were made. His character was attacked.
2) Plans were discussed by Members to win the auctions, pay for the coins with Paypal, take delivery of the coins and then contact Paypal and contest the transaction causing the payments to be reversed.
3) In fear of the above, ASwimmer felt compelled to cancel his auctions.
I'm really interested in who is willing to defend these actions as necessary? Just how did these things help to "educate" Members here?
We haven't emailed his bidders?
We haven't made derrogatory comments about his dead family members?
There's so much that could be done, and we must save the hobby!
It was NEVER about the hobby Russ, and you know it. It was about 2-3 blow-hards wanting to look good in front of their peers. So they hog tie a 2-bit, part time coin dealer, crucify him, and offer him up to the board as if they'd just shot the Hunt brothers.
And yet, as TBT reminds me, we don't dare touch "our own."
I don't know how they define "hypocritical," (the numisnazis) but I suspect its similar to how they define "justice."
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
TBT
I have also learned through correspondence with Alan, that not only is he not going to list any more coins on eBay, he is left with such a bad taste that he is not going to buy either. He is scared (as am I) that the numisnazis will now come after his computer auctions, and he just wants to be left alone.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I know it's not your fault, and I'm not blaming you.
Anybody ever get his social security number?
I do notice he's put the word "Natural" PROMINENTLY in the description of his coins. Should be easy picking, mein Fuhr!
Actually agfox, I'm glad to see him back. I didn't think he deserved what he got, and I thought it was a shame that he felt the need to abandon coins altogether. It will be interesting to see if any other forum members bid on his auctions now (other than me).
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I had to tell them over and over that it had NOTHING to do with sex and everything to do with lying. In that case, it was lying to a Grand Jury and to the American people. But Clinton, like a certain coin doctor, always selected his words very carefully....walked right up to the line but knew where not to cross. And whether a guy is lying to us at the podium, lying to us through his auctions, or lying to us through this forum, he's still lying. I think many forum members got really po'd because he came here and tried to play them for a fool and they just weren't going to stand for it. And good for them, I don't like it either.
Now, to my other point, and it deals with your belief that forum members refuse to attack their own.
I came in on the tail end of a weekend bloodbath some number of months ago. I don't remember all the details, but I was told that a certain well-respected board member had spent the weekend pretending to be, oh, we'll call him Doctor Coin. I don't even recall what trouble he was trying to cause, or what he had said, but I do seem to remember that when it was discovered who he was and what he was doing, he was torn a new one. I certainly didn't get the impression that anyone backed off just because he was a well-respected forum member. If my history is all wrong, please correct me as it won't be my first error.
Contacting a seller's bidders and telling them they should withdraw their bids, or that the seller steps on baby ducks, or whatever is way out of line. As for easyman, bondman22, and who knows all else, I've seen threads on almost all of them. ASwimmer could have just said, "up yours" and kept right on doing what he was doing....and he may yet do just that. I understand that that's exactly what easyman has told a forum member.
But for the FIRST TIME in my brief history in numismatics, I'm feeling the winds of change as it relates to Coin Doctors and their sleezy dirty work and that feeling has nothing to do with forum lynch mobs.
I welcome the fresh air.
Keep up the thought-provoking posts!!
GSAGUY
Thanks
<< <i>TBT,
I have just assumed that the self-appointed hall monitors who escorted Swimmer into oblivion would then turn their attention to someone else. As the righteous and ordained keepers of all that is Numismatic, I think the rest of us should at least support them by drafting a doctrine addressing what is good, and what is bad, what is collectible and what isn't, who are good dealers (forum members only) and who are not (everyone else).
Seriously? If you're asking me personally, I say no one interferes at all. Educate the buyer (or let the buyer educate himself...worked for me), then caveat emptor. This idea of protecting the buyer by exterminating the questionable sellers is ludicrous to me, and even if it were logical, the way in which we saw it play out here is entirely unnacceptable.
No one forces bidders to bid on eBay. It is IMPOSSIBLE to sign up for an eBay account without having "Caveat Emptor" flashed in your face in an undeniable fashion. We're all adults, who can make our own decisions and collect what we want. I'm a free enterprise kind of guy, and if a seller gets the best of me, shame on me. I don't need, and I certainly don't want, dragon, K6AZ, or any of the other legislators of ethics to make my decisions for me. >>
It is people with attitudes like you have that perpetuate doctoring in numismatics. Because you know your coins, doesn't mean a lot of others do, or have had the chance to. There are new collectors entering the hobby all the time, and I would expect those of us who are knowledgable to speak out when we find certain sellers selling coins that are not as advertised or represented. But it sounds like if you had your way, it would never be mentioned. Let those newbie suckers get taken to the cleaner, right?
You can continue to whine, and make your silly little threads here, but that will not stop me from pointing out coins I know to be doctored. And to tell you the truth, it doesn't matter to me if the seller is a forum member or not. Apparently, you are referring to a modern coin that you suspect is AT. I don't look at or really have much experience with moderns, outside of my proof sets and modern commemoratives which are all in the original packaging. I do have extensive experience with Morgan Dollars, and currently I see none on ebay that are AT that I could attribute to a forum member. If I did see such a coin, I would point it out. And you can count on it.
<< <i>Some Members here want to defend what happened on this Forum to ASwimmer. Trying to "warn" other Members about possible AT coins, etc.
Let's not conveniently forget what other actions were taken to torpedo ASwimmer's auctions! Members here were responsible for:
1) Bidders on ASwimmer's auctions were contacted by howardw007@aol.com, Dragon, in direct violation of Ebay's rules. All kinds of accusations and inuendo were made. His character was attacked.
2) Plans were discussed by Members to win the auctions, pay for the coins with Paypal, take delivery of the coins and then contact Paypal and contest the transaction causing the payments to be reversed.
3) In fear of the above, ASwimmer felt compelled to cancel his auctions.
I'm really interested in who is willing to defend these actions as necessary? Just how did these things help to "educate" Members here?
How about being a little more precise DCAM? As one of the "inquistors" I did none of the above. The only thing I have done is make statements here. Be careful with your attributions.
<< <i>DCAM,
I have also learned through correspondence with Alan, that not only is he not going to list any more coins on eBay, he is left with such a bad taste that he is not going to buy either. He is scared (as am I) that the numisnazis will now come after his computer auctions, and he just wants to be left alone. >>
So... now we find out you are symphasizing with Mr Swimmer? This puts your intentions in a whole new light. Yes, poor Mr. Swimmer who has been selling AT coins for months, poor Mr. Swimmer who buys a white coin and sells it as a toned coin, poor Mr. Swimmer who doctored images and then switched them in an ongoing auction, then removed them altogether, is a poor persecuted soul. Please give me a break! As far as I am concerned, with the statement above, you have absolutely zero credibility.
Sorry if you took offense. I really meant none, and I apologize if you took it as a personal comment. I honestly did not mean it that way.
K6AZ, I don't mean this as a personal attack, but I don't like you, and I can't think of any way to say it without it sounding as such, so I won't even try. Please keep that in mind as you read further.
I believe you are a self-inflated, pompous jerk who thinks that whatever YOU deem as important to our hobby should be accepted as the gospel. While I applaud the intent and inspiration of your attacks on ACG and Alan Hagar, the "hey look what I'm doing" tone of many of your posts gives me an undeniable impression of self-glorifying, holier-than-thou propaganda. I also believe you are the quintessential slab-snob, proudly waving the pompous, arrogant, elitist attitude that so many of my fellow collectors detest. I assure you I am no proponent of doctoring, and would do anything in my power to stop it AS LONG AS I DON'T INFRINGE ON ANOTHER'S ENJOYMENT OF THE HOBBY. Unfortunately, I don't think you can say the same, in earnest. You would, and have done everything imagineable, even in the face of competent FREE legal advice to the contrary, to draw attention to yourself and your "noble deeds." It isn't about ACG anymore you know? Its all about K6AZ being the big bad standard bearer and leader of the noble masses. In my opinion, you are doing more harm for our hobby than good, and the impression you give "newbies" is far worse than the damage a $50 AT Morgan could ever cause. Honestly, I truly believe that we should welcome Alan Swimmer back, and cast you into the abyss. That would be the better scenario from the perspective of our hobby, at least in my opinion.
Fire away admiral. How soon can you have "screwdwood.com" up and running?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>I'm on it!
Anybody ever get his social security number?
I do notice he's put the word "Natural" PROMINENTLY in the description of his coins. Should be easy picking, mein Fuhr!
Actually agfox, I'm glad to see him back. I didn't think he deserved what he got, and I thought it was a shame that he felt the need to abandon coins altogether. It will be interesting to see if any other forum members bid on his auctions now (other than me). >>
You have just gone into negative credibility territory. He got exactly what he deserved with his lies on top of his AT garbage.
And I strongly object to your use of German and tagging some of us as "numisnazis". I suggest you research what a real Nazi was.
<< <i>Dave if nothing else should convince you to give it up, having DCAM and cointoast on your side should more than be enough reason to let it go. Your buddy just lied to you again. How many more lies before you get off this emotional and sad crusade? >>
And you are the banker, right? You've said you were a bank president in the past, correct? I've known a good number of bank presidents over the years. Most have them have taken a 3-10 year stay in the pokey.
I'm not on anybody's "side", as you incorrectly stated. I just know rules were broken and you would be one that defends the actions. Rules and ethics mean a lot to me, though seem to be overlooked by bank presidents.
Negative credibility with K6?
Thank you Jesus!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Good, because the feeling is mutual. Anyone who freely throws around the term "Nazi" and make Germanic slurs is on my s-list.
<<<I believe you are a self-inflated, pompous jerk who thinks that whatever YOU deem as important to our hobby should be accepted as the gospel. While I applaud the intent and inspiration of your attacks on ACG and Alan Hagar, the "hey look what I'm doing" tone of many of your posts gives me an undeniable impression of self-glorifying, holier-than-thou propaganda.>>>
With this statement, you are showing what a small mind you have. And you are basing your judgment of me as a "self-inflated pompus jerk" over which posts? Outside of this AT business the last few days, I haven't made many posts here outside of some me-too and post-a-picture threads. Somehow, I think your whole attitued is swayed by the fact that you think Alan Swimmer is a poor victim.
<<<I also believe you are the quintessential slab-snob, proudly waving the pompous, arrogant, elitist attitude that so many of my fellow collectors detest.>>>
Really? Here you show you don't know what you are talking about. I just bought hundreds of raw Morgans, and have sold some with the purchasers being very happy with them. I will tell you though, that slabs have made the coin market a much safer place compared to what it was 20+ years ago. Sounds to me you are one of these guys who just can't accept the new marketplace in numismatics. And what are you doing on a PCGS board if you have such a problem with slabs? Seems to me you would be on one of the boards that isn't sponsored by one of the respected grading companies.
<<<I assure you I am no proponent of doctoring, and would do anything in my power to stop it AS LONG AS I DON'T INFRINGE ON ANOTHER'S ENJOYMENT OF THE HOBBY. Unfortunately, I don't think you can say the same, in earnest.>>>
And pray tell, what have I done that infringes on anyone's enjoyment of the hobby? The only thing I have done is to post here on this board. That spoils your enjoyment of the hobby? You are seriously delusional. No one is forcing you to read AT threads.
<<<You would, and have done everything imagineable, even in the face of competent FREE legal advice to the contrary, to draw attention to yourself and your "noble deeds." It isn't about ACG anymore you know? Its all about K6AZ being the big bad standard bearer and leader of the noble masses. In my opinion, you are doing more harm for our hobby than good, and the impression you give "newbies" is far worse than the damage a $50 AT Morgan could ever cause. Honestly, I truly believe that we should welcome Alan Swimmer back, and cast you into the abyss. That would be the better scenario from the perspective of our hobby, at least in my opinion.>>>
First of all, in regards to "free legal advice". It has been my experience on the internet that 9 out of 10 people who claim to be lawyers on the internet aren't. The one in ten who is, doesn't practice civil litigation. I have a very fine lawyer, thank you, and he costs a buck or two. With the second part of your statement above, it is obvious your gripe is you are so offended that Swimmer got torn down. He deserved it. And as I have said before, your comments aren't going to change what I do. Perhaps now you will do what others have done, go over to the NGC board and cry about that big bad bully "across the street".
By the way, please point me to the last thread I posted about ACG.