Interesting research...hypocrisy?
dwood
Posts: 821
I'm not going to mention names, or even link the auctions, but I've been perusing eBay this morning and last night, and have come across several (10-15?) toned coins offered by members of this forum where the color appears to be AT, or at the least, HIGHLY UNUSUAL for natural toning. However, that is never mentioned in the descriptions, and yet, no one is calling them out? Surely with the level of policing we have seen from our "CU Investigative Forces" they had to have run across these coins? I found them simply by searching ALL US COINS for "Toned" then wading through the first 5-6 pages. (I wonder how many reading this have been sweating it out as the discussions of the past few days have unfolded, praying they weren't accused as well? I know at least a couple have had to have been, as there simply is NO QUESTION they're offering AT examples).
I also see 2 slabbed modern coins offered by our esteemed members that are most certainly AT (I assume the coins were wiped, then quickly submitted and slabbed, where the toning continued inside the holder. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it, especially on modern issues. I can't say that our members made these coins, but I can't say they didn't either. To whomever was able to slide it past PCGS, NICE work!)
So I'm wondering...do we really care about the hobby as a whole? Or do we only want to shut down the AT pushers who aren't members here? It is easy to call out aswimmer, or easyman. They are faceless usernames we've never had, nor ever will have any signifigant exchange of dialogue with, and we don't have to "see" them every day. What about someone a little "closer to home?" Isn't their deceptive action just as damaging (perhaps moreso) to our hobby? Where do we draw the line? (That question may not be as facetious as appears, as it seems there is most definitely a double standard with respect to AT coins and members of this forum).
Why aren't CU members who practice the same tactics tossed into the water as well? Would they not float as well? Personally, I think you can only call out a dealer with whom you've had personal experience (in other words, you've had at least one transaction where goods and payment were exchanged), however that doesn't seem to be the case for some of our police/monitors. How about it fellows?
"Physician...heal thyself?"
I also see 2 slabbed modern coins offered by our esteemed members that are most certainly AT (I assume the coins were wiped, then quickly submitted and slabbed, where the toning continued inside the holder. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it, especially on modern issues. I can't say that our members made these coins, but I can't say they didn't either. To whomever was able to slide it past PCGS, NICE work!)
So I'm wondering...do we really care about the hobby as a whole? Or do we only want to shut down the AT pushers who aren't members here? It is easy to call out aswimmer, or easyman. They are faceless usernames we've never had, nor ever will have any signifigant exchange of dialogue with, and we don't have to "see" them every day. What about someone a little "closer to home?" Isn't their deceptive action just as damaging (perhaps moreso) to our hobby? Where do we draw the line? (That question may not be as facetious as appears, as it seems there is most definitely a double standard with respect to AT coins and members of this forum).
Why aren't CU members who practice the same tactics tossed into the water as well? Would they not float as well? Personally, I think you can only call out a dealer with whom you've had personal experience (in other words, you've had at least one transaction where goods and payment were exchanged), however that doesn't seem to be the case for some of our police/monitors. How about it fellows?
"Physician...heal thyself?"
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
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Comments
Just in case you don't read all the threads here's what I said in another thread: Hypocrisy? No way hoss!!!
point fingers and call names, let's hear it!
I had not seen your reply, though I did follow that thread for a while. That would seem to be another example of what I've seen on these forums. And that is what leads to my confusion.
jbsteven,
As I said, I reserve comment until I've completed a transaction with someone (this is probably one of the prominent things that concerned me in the lynching of aswimmer...I don't think anyone hounding him had ever bought anything from him). However, there is one coin, somewhere within the first 2-3 pages of a search for "Toned" in "US Coins" that will jump out at even the most neophyte of collectors. If you can't pick this out of the list, you probably wouldn't be following these threads anyway. Its easyman's and aswimmer's dream job, and it is slabbed! And yet somehow, it was overlooked by our censors. Go figure?!?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I did, however, get the pleasure of viewing dozens of listings from easyman, bbycoin, dale-earnhart-will-be-missed, and aswimmer.
There's 15 minutes of my life I just wasted!
Oh, and I did skip all listings that were certified by any company. That's an entirely different subject altogether.
Some some bondman stuff...that guy really needs to learn how to make a scan!
and this guy with a few AT Morgans Text
part of my first post was to see what others think of my toned coins.
BTW my ebay name is jbsteven1 incase anyone wants to check.
the bby guy is the most blatant one I see.
The point is, we crucify people we don't know all the time (that truly seems to be one of the primary purposes of this forum, to police eBay and blast "bad dealers"), yet when a forum member offers an AT coin, we look the other way. Why?
Granted there is the occasional honest auction, like Russ' [Artificial] listing from a few weeks ago, which I found quite humorous, and which was without question completely honest. However, the majority of the ones I've seen offered by forum members are no different than the rest, with no mention of the possibilty of AT, and descriptions such as "Monster," "Should have gone higher," and other typically misleading descriptors.
So, if I list my 53-D Lincolns, stored in motor oil, and MASSIVELY TONED (which I am planning on doing soon), can I expect to be left alone, or do I need to know the secret handshake first?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>or do I need to know the secret handshake first? >>
You think maybe? You might be on to something.
Are you not guilty of the same thing, you have accused some forum members (without naming names) of toning coins? Like pete I checked several pages and did not see any forum members (I know) listing AT coins.
Dan
<>< ~~~
However, let me correct you on one point. I have not accused anyone (explicitly or implied) of toning coins. I have accused them of knowingly selling AT coins without disclosing that to their bidders. And actually, I haven't even accused them of that, because quite simply, it is a fact. You can't accuse someone of a fact, can you?
I know, I should go and pull their buying histories, run all the photos through lockdown and pixellated microphotographic scrutiny, and contact all their bidders to warn them of the scam...but I'm still new to all of this. Forgive me, but I need to go practice that handshake for a while. I'm thinking of listing this weekend!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
how about pointing out the EXACT auctions or seller so we can see what you are talking about.
Well spoken & thought out opinion. Glad to see that you make note of items this way.
Thanks for the effort.
Knowledge is king!
palscoins
No can do. I still have respect burned into my psyche, thanks to my raising. I was taught that you give a man (meaning "other humans" in todays politically correct environment) the benefit of the doubt until you have irrefutable proof of their actions. There are others here who aren't held to the same standards to which I hold myself, so perhaps you'll know very soon (Honestly, I'm surprised that someone with your experience hasn't already discovered the coin to which I am referring. I will give you a hint...not all of the members of this forum are "big fish." Some are "small-time guys" who post a little here and there, sell a coin once in a while, and would be judged by this forum as "insignifgant" with respect to their importance or contribution to the hobby...or flat-out labeled "coin doctors." Its a modern coin...post 1964, so it isn't really a worthy coin after all, or so I gather).
Anyway, I didn't start the thread to rally the next witch hunt. That's not my point. It is interesting that all this thread has aroused is attacks on my intent, or proceedure, or purpose, and not one hint at an answer to what I and other responders see as a valid question.
WOW! Check this out!!!!
You mean......the experts.......were.............wrong?!?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
You have some interesting thoughts on toned / color coins but its still based on each person’s personal opinion. There is not a color standard except “if its in a slab its xx% safe”.
I have also done the search you suggested and did not see any certified coins that match your issues and concerns. If the seller is a contributing forum member then express your opinion on their coins(s) but refrain from frying them. Remember they may trust their judgment more than yours or trust the services and that is ok also to disagree with your assessment.
I read over the execution of aswimmer and in some respects it was wrong to have the vigilante attitude but then as an exclusive color / toned dealer, I disagree with his sales tactics.
TBT
call me cynical.
K S
I've saved the auction locally (the slab and cert # doesn't show in the photo, so I just saved the entire thing). After the auction has closed, and time has passed for any return period to expire, I'll post it and then everyone can have their fun. I hate to see it happen to this guy, becuase I've enjoyed his comments, sparse though they are, but...I really want to be accepted. So I'll offer him up as soon as any liability on my part has passed (or lessend to an acceptable level). For now, I'm not comfortable plastering the scarlet "CD" on his breast though, so please pacify me for a bit longer.
And still, there is no comment on the purpose of this thread. Telling, I suppose <wink wink...nod nod...blinkety blinkety>
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>I have accused them of knowingly selling AT coins without disclosing that to their bidders. >>
Dwood,
I'm sorry, but at this point, you've really done nothing but create another thread. Without linking these auctions, or showing us these allegedly AT'd coins, the assertion lacks credibility.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>I have accused them of knowingly selling AT coins without disclosing that to their bidders. >>
Dwood,
I'm sorry, but at this point, you've really done nothing but create another thread. Without linking these auctions, or showing us these allegedly AT'd coins, the assertion lacks credibility.
Russ, NCNE >>
I would have to agree. So you have wasted our time today? Sorry, but I would like to see if I agree with your coin skills as much as you do.
TBT
The point of the thread was an explanation as to the double standard that seems to exist with regard to forum members versus non forum mebers selling AT coins deceptively. It wasn't about "member X has coin A for sale." Sorry to dissapoint, but I'm sure the two of you know an AT coin when you see it. Surely you do!
This isn't about whether or not a specific coin is AT Its about whether or not a double standard exists. If you guys want another witch hunt, start your own thread. I'm sure it won't be long before you get lots of replies!
Tonekiller, your insinuation about my "coin skills" is devastating. Of course I'm not the master that you are, nowhere near the expert, not worthy of your time (and so sorry that I "wasted it" today). Toned crap is not my specialty. I'm a copper guy. But I have some toned crap in my collection (some even which came from you, I believe).
I'm also not Belgian, but I love waffles. I don't know the history of the waffle, or the chemical structure. Nor do I know how to "fake" a waffle, and sell it for a massive profit to some unsuspecting dupe. I don't make my living selling special waffles, highly sought after waffles, or the ever-elusive "MONSTER WAFFLE OF DEATH!"
But I know a good waffle when I see one. I have lots of experience with them. I can tell the difference between a pancake and a waffle...in spite of not being Belgian.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Russ, and Tonekiller...Did you read the thread? >>
Every single word.
<< <i>Are you aware of the purpose of the thread? >>
Yep, to stir up some more sh!t.
Again, the assertions have no credibility without pointing to specific examples. You cannot call an allegation without documentation "research".
Russ, NCNE
I understand the intention of the post and agree that this board should police itself……within the realm of civility only. We will all disagree about things and need to be careful of becoming a lynch mob!
TBT
YES or NO?
You post a pic, and I'll say yes or no.
Russ...class is dismissed for you. You are now excused from having to read and respond to everything I write (read if you like, but I just tore up the contract that was binding you to respond).
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
That's pretty! Yours? Is it for sale?
Russ, NCNE
"Yes or No"
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>Russ...class is dismissed for you. You are now excused from having to read and respond to everything I write (read if you like, but I just tore up the contract that was binding you to respond). >>
Dwood,
That's pretty typical. Raise a little hell, when confronted with reality, take the ball and run home. Grow some stones and name names. If a forum member is selling artificially toned coins, they deserve no special dispensation.
Of course, in order to be more specific, you'd actually have to trust your own detection skills. Do you?
Russ, NCNE
"Yes or no about the question."
Is that better?
This is pointless...look at what our so-called "experts" had to say about Lori's coin:
An AT coin goes MS65...proof is in the pudding
So when I get one of yours wrong, then "you've got me." Right?
Ok...I'll say the obverse is AT, but it looks like it doesn't weigh enough? Is this a counterfeit Kennedy?
Can we play some 3 card monty next? Huh jb? Can we? CAN WE?!?! PLEASE!!!???
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Dave, this member that you intimate in this thread, did he also buy two ovens, chemicals, alter photos, purchase two books on coin altering, two sets of dremel tools and did he come in here and deny that he messed with the coins? You seem to think you are good at asking questions, why not answer some? Or are you just good at playing henny penny?
<< <i>Can we play some 3 card monty next? Huh jb? Can we? CAN WE?!?! PLEASE!!!??? >>
whooooosh, right over my head
I should start another thread that says
I KNOW A BOARD MEMBER THAT IS SELLING NEWBIES ON EBAY AT COINS AND CALLING THEM ORIGINAL!!!!
and then not list any names.............................alrightythen
However, if you tone the coin yourself in a matter of a couple days, make up a fanciful story to support it's "originality", and doctor some photographs along the way for good measure... that's a bit different, don't you think?
Not sure why that's such a difficult distinction to make.
Yeah, I do.
And I'm fairly confident that when it comes to fortitude and integrity, my "stones" are more than adequate. And if they aren't, well I guess I'll die in ignorance, cause I'm betting on them.
However, I only have experience with my own "stones" so I will defer to your obviously superior knowledge in this area (no pun intended).
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
GSAGUY
P.S. David, I KNEW there was an attorney somewhere in that 'wood pile'.
I don't know, and I don't really care. That seems to be more your bag than mine. Perhaps you can do a search and make a report? And actually, I didn't intimate a single member, but a group, and an undetermined group.
I've answered a couple of your questions there, but I'm sure you have more. Fire away...and by the way...what is henny penny (you have to answer that, so we're on a level plane here, ok?)
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
name names and point fingers!
Henny penny claimed the sky was falling, from the famous childrens book.
Thank you Dr. Freud...or is it Counselor Bailey?
Can you also tell me what number I am thinking of right now?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I'll guess square root of 2? Maybe Pi?
That's a tough one, there are a lot of irrational numbers to choose from.
(Kidding, kidding!
And IrishMike...it just strikes me as odd that here I am, in a thread I started about double standards, being acused of "dodging the issues" when asked about something entirely unrelated to the original question I posed (you think its about swimmer, jb thinks its about toned coins, Russ is captivated by my "stones," etc).
Few have addressed my original question, and those that have have hinted at the existence of a double standard ("take care of it in other ways"). I think that may be my answer?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
As I mentioned earlier, if a forum member is selling obviously doctored or AT coins (and misrepresenting them), they should be confronted about it. However, because the person is a known forum member who participates, they should be approached first by PM because that is a courteous gesture. Then, if the situation warrants, perhaps publicly posting about the coin but no the PM exchange.
Neil