Off topic...Do you think we ought to attack Iraq right now?
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
I respect your opinions, well most of you.
I've been oscillating a little bit......so, do you think we ought to atttack Iraq?
I've been oscillating a little bit......so, do you think we ought to atttack Iraq?
0
Comments
Tom
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
one big BOOM!
Now what? Why pass a resolution and then not uphold it?
Worse, now we are preparing for war against weapons Iraq is not supposed to have.
No one (well, maybe a few) wants war but what do you do?
(Does any one have any idea how Buffalo Nickels hold up under chemical, biological and/or nuclear attacks?)
Joe.
Then you go in and install a new government and occupy the country for 5 to 10 years.Create hardships for the other oil countries in the mideast by driving down oil prices, then attack Iran.
It'll be made for us.
peacockcoins
Mike said :
<< <i>If we go in now we may make the UN and NATO irrelevant. >>
Honestly with the way they bicker now, I think they already are irrelevant in current form. I'm not against the idea, but what we currently have isn't working.
Alot of time we look at items with blinders on but remember the people of Sadams country would be killed for the protest we had here and in other countries around the rest of the FREE world. Sadam killed his own daughters for defience and atempet to kill one of his sons so what makes us think he wont harm others?
We in the free world have alot of say of what goes on and we take that others can do the same in there country but that is not true. Should not everyone have the rights of freedom to express there feelings with being endanger of harm to thereselves
I myself do not want to see war but if that is what it takes to solve this then we must I have many friend that are in the military and some stationed in that theater of operations now from the 101st and the Tn National Guard, I dont want them to be harmed but as most of or men and women in the military will agree it is something that needs to be done to protect the freedoms of our great country.
Just me 2cents worth
12/14/03 Bremer Confirms U.S. Captured Saddam
Joe Holt
joe_holt@bellsouth.net
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
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my local dealer
They have the will to destroy us (meaning the U.S.) but not the means. We have the means to destroy them, but it seems many of us lack the will. I have no doubt that if left unchecked Saddam will unleash whatever he can on the U.S. sometime before he dies. It is time to remove him and his machine, the sooner the better, and with the least possible disruption to the good people of Iraq. As for the U.N. "When all is said and done; more will be said than done."
Now that we have Afganistan, we can build the pipeline between the Russian oil fields and the Indian Ocean which will speed transport of crude from a vast and untapped Siberian field. And we won't have to deal with OPEC as much.
Now we just need to go in and take back a prime producer in the Middle East as well as establish a firm military foot hold now that we are on the outs with the Saudis and Isreal is proving not to really be our "friend."
Furthermore, we get to topple an apparent threat to the safety of the United States and use the new Iraq Republic as a base for the new "War on Terrorism," which really can't be won, but it does replace the Cold War and the War on Drugs nicely in regards to defense spending, which Clinton abolished during his Presidency.
Michael
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Mean spirited people led the Soviet government, but they were rational. These Moslem extremists are so hopped up on religion that they are not rational. You can’t reason with extremely religious people because they have given over their thought processes to firmly held assumptions and emotionalism. The extremist Moslem pawns have totally bought in on the assumption that they are better off if they make themselves into martyrs.
I fear what will happen to us if the terrorists get the bomb, nerve gas, biological weapons and the means to deliver them anywhere they choose. 9/11 showed us the type of people we are dealing with, and the U.S. and the rest of world need to take heed of that.
As for North Korea, the leader of that country is a spoiled rotten brat who is looking to have access to nuclear toys. He has no consideration for anyone else, not even the citizens of his own country whom he is more than willing starve. He’s even begun to scare his long time allies, the Chinese.
Nothing has changed since 1991. The only urgency is the urgency we are creating. I am convinced we should have completed our campaign in 1991, and stabilized the region, but we didn't. One of our key goals has been to keep the royal family in power in Saudi and prevent an unfriendly fundamentalist regime from gaining control. We are staging there quite deliberately. As I see it, if Saudi experienced a fundamentalist Muslim revolution (highly likely since that is the seat of that religion, and home to most of the 9/11 crew), Jordan would fall. Let me see, that leaves Kuwait, the UAE, and Yemen as our potential allies in the region. We all know how well unpopular pro-western governments work in that region, right? Remember Iran and the student revolution? Funny thing is, we don't really need the oil from the region. Our allies do. We don't want to take it, we only want to make sure it remains available to the west. Failure to make it readily available would result in a shift in world power away from the west. Did anyone really believe we were interested in liberating the Emir of Kuwait?
Don't get me wrong, Hussein is a terrible man, and left in charge of the second largest oil supply in the region, would very quickly become wealthy enough to represent a very serious threat to his population and the region. We really do probably have to stop him. Now is better than later. As for public opinion here and abroad, the leader who brought us "sublimiBinal" has articulated our interest so poorly that we may end up being the bad guy. Prior to the effort to oust Milosovic, we did a pretty good job of showing the world what he had done and why he needed to be removed. This leadership has attempted failingly to link the Al Qeada to Iraq and present that fig leaf as justification for our involvement. In truth, we do have real interest in removing Hussein and keeping Saudi civil. By doing so, we protect Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, Iraq, UAE, Kuwait, Yemen, and isolate Iran. Since we were already active in the region, I'm pretty sure the decision to act on Iraq was made knowing the cleanup in Afghanistan was under way, and we had resources in the region. By continuing operations in the region, we are also allowed to remain in Saudi.
But hey - I could be wrong.
Edited to add - Did I mention how fiendishly clever the new one year write-off for sport utility vehicles is. That will surely throw our revolutionary friends off the trail. LOL
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
If you had asked me prior to 9/11, I would said "forget it. Let the Middle East and Europe deal with their own messes. Just leave us alone and leave us out of it all. We can't be the world's police." However, I now truly feel that someday (tomorrow, next year, in twenty years..who knows....but eventually) Saddam or another evil dictator will give a weapon of mass destruction to a muslim extremist that will result in the death of several hundred thousand Americans.
There is no pretty or nice way to deal with the situation. We all wish we could just close our borders and forget that the rest of the world doesn't exist. But evil dictators with weapons of mass destruction is the hand we've been dealt and we can either do our best today to try to limit the inevitable deaths that will result from the existence of these dictators..or we can bury our dead later and then have a task that will be much more difficult. What if the world had stopped Hitler in 1936? How many fewer Soviets, Jews, Poles, Germans, French, British and Americans would have died? What if we had stopped Saddam in 1990...how many fewer Iraqis, Americans, Kurds would have had to die?
How many fewer Arabs, Americans, Europeans and innocent people will die today versus what I believe will be the likely result if we do nothing.
George Washington warned us in his Farewell Address against foreign entanglements. We did everything possible to stay out of WWI and WWII. We all want to just be left alone. It's not about oil and power and prestige etc. In my opinion...it's about limiting the total loss of life over the next forty years that is going to inevitably result from the existence of dictators.
The one thing we should do from here on out...is demand that our leaders not encourage or strengthen dictatorships......including Saudia Arabia, Cuba or Turkmenistan.
Again..I respect the opinions expressed and can understand where everyone is coming from. But....what if in ten years extremists get their hands on a weapon of mass destruction and kill hundreds of thousands of Americans.....we will be saying the same thing then that we are today about why did we not stop the holocaust.
It's a tough decision....but it's a decision that has been forced upon us. Hind sight is twenty-twenty. At least we should learn to stop supporting dictatorships.
Take care.
Go in and take away all WMD? YES
look, if my neighbor was building bombs in his garage, stockpiling them and maybe giving them to some other nuts in the 'hood, would I want him shot and his family orphaned and his house blown up?
No, I would want the police to go in and gently and carefully take the stuff away from him and arrest him and give him a fair trial..
I swear, our world has seemed to have lost the ability to deal with concepts in SHADES of Gray:
is it REAL or AT? Must I collect Classics or Moderns? geez guys, how about somewhere in between, and using sound and rational judgement to decide? is it so freaking difficult?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
"....establish a firm military foot hold now that we are on the outs with the Saudis and Isreal is proving not to really be our "friend." "
You probably have no inkling what a true friend is, nor will you ever know with that smug statement. I wish all my friends were as tight as Israel & the US.
Marc
Leo
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I think that something must be done with Saddaam, but do not think that GWB's methods are the way to go. I think he is hurting his own folks with his narrow views. He is probably being advised by "daddy", who should have done the job in 91.
Should we take Saddam out? Yes. He should not be left there to rule.
How does the world expect us to get him? Ask? No. We will have to go in there hard and fast as possible before he does anything stupid.
What am I going to expect to happen in Iraq? I expect Saddam to destroy his city by having us go in there to get him and fight our way to him. I expect him to destroy the oil fields and with massive environmental damage. I expect Saddam to cut off his food rations to his people so that they starve. I expect alot of Psychological Operation from Saddam to his own people so that they attack us. I highly expect a chemical/biological war on his part. What will this do ot the U.S.? The U.S. will be hard hit with the costs of humanitarian efforts to the Iraqi and surrounding people which would prevent more casualties of war due to disease, famine, ect.
So, in my opinion. We have to act now and fast before something else happens and that is a risk the U.S. Govt. and I will have to take.
the middle east, he is a reservist.
A lot of good thoughts here.
What bothers me is the waste of human life - either our guys over there soon who will surely die and lose their dreams and families so
that we may have ours. Also the waste of human life of the Iraq people. They for the most part, i assume, are innocent bystanders.
There is also another consideration and that was brought up by someone - I suspect that the evil SH will strike eventually at us or our
allies. Many people will probably die. Then we will level the country like we did Afghanistan. Why wait to strike second. If you know
you're gonna get punched, punch first. Taking him out seems to be a worthy goal. However, taking someone out when they're not
looking is easier than taking someone out who has his guard up.
High gas prices don't bother me and it's drain on the economy and inflationary aspects don't bother me either. But with our nation's
debt, add to that our slow economy and then add to that the cost of not only taking over Iraq but maintaining control and then
re-establishing our man in there might eventually be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
The world already hates the US government (but not the people) so going against world opinion doesn't bother me too much.
(Remember, half of the world has a below average IQ. A portioin of them may have all been out marhcing this past weekend.)
Being the biggest guy on the block means we don't have to be the most popular. Sorry, just stating my opinion.
Certainly SH has given us plenty of reason to strike him. Getting rid of him would be a blessing to everyone.
So, oil doesn't matter in the short run, world opinion doesn't matter, SH is going to strike first if we don't, he is evil, we need oil for
our country and he has it....i say we put a one billion dollar bounty on his head and let it roll. One of his military leaders will start a
coup, collect the dough, we won't have to rebuild Iraq because we will have taken him out without destroying the country and
we'll have a new leader who can see that he's the next guy to get a one billion dollar bounty on his head if he tangles with us.
Of course the only problem is that our nation has some corny law on the books about not taking out leaders of foreign governments.
Minor annoyance. Since when does the baddest dude on the block have to obey the laws?
adrian
<< <i>Attack? NO
Go in and take away all WMD? YES >>
Good concept. How does it get implemented?
I didn't mean to insult the supporters of Israel or anyone else on this Board. However, while I was in college (in Washington D.C.) I had the great opportunity to work for the former head of the State Department's Anti-Terrorism Task Force. Then and now he is a private consultant and television commentator. You've seen him on ABC/CNN right after 9/11. I actually worked on a study for the Kuwait government illustrating how Sadaam would invade, 1 year prior to the actual military campaign.
As an assistant to this gentleman, I had access to information that would turn most stomachs and convince all that what you read in the papers, watch on TV and hear on the Radio is not the entire truth. Matter of fact, most of what really occurs, never makes it to the press and public due to national security concerns.
Trust me, while I can't really talk about all the info he told me and I saw, we have a tenous relationship with every country in the middle east. Israel and the United States as well as the Saudis and the United States are friends because it serves each parties interest. The Saudi Royal family is in constant fear of a revolt and insurrection, throwing them from power. We also fear it for what that could mean to our/world oil supplies. As I'm sure you are aware, our economy is closely tied to the price of crude oil.
As for Israel, we fund their government to the tune of $5 Billion, from what I remember, but I could be way off. We have provided them a significant amount of their weapons. But for the most part, they recoil from any White House inteference. How many US Presidents have tried to bring them to the table to no avail. Do you realize that Israel spies on the United States? Why do they do this if they are our steadfast "friend."
Ask yourself why are we there? Why do we care about a little piece of wind-blown sand? Why, when the Koreans seem to have nuclear weapons and are developing a delivery system to reach the United States, do we still focus our attention to Iraq?
I don't mean to sound X-Fileish, but there's more to what happens in the world then most (99%) of the citizens of the United States know or ever relaize. That's not some strange conspiracy theory, its the undeniable truth.
Sorry if I insulted you or anyone else. Hopefully, the truth won't cloud anyone's eyes to the perceived value or lack thereof of any of my posts.
Michael
Saddam Hussein has gas, tortured, raped, ect.., ect.. his own people! I spent 11 months in Kuwait in 1998, 3 miles from Iraq. That is the saddest place that you would ever imagine to be!
You want to cry about the Economy! Well cry to all the Clinton lovers! The difference between the U.S. today and the U.S. of yesterday is simple. HONESTY!!!! G.W. in all his downfalls is gonna tell you how it is. People in this country don't want to hear that! They want to lye around thinking everything is O.K. It's not!!!!!!!! The world is very different now! I'm not going to bring up the reasons why you all should know! Clinton lyed to this country more times than anyone could begin to imagine. Did anyone talk about him. NO!!!!! Only when it affects your wallet thats when were gonna start the marches on Washington. IMO President Bush is a honerable man. He is doing the right thing to get the economy going in the right direction and in the end WE will be stronger than we ever have been! You think it's gonna stop with Iraq! Guess who's next N Korea! Oh Yea, Just remembered, Been there to. It sucks just as bad! Do we need WW3, maybe, but to answer the comment in one of the eariler threads OUR TROOPS ARE THE FINEST MOST WELL TRAINED AND PROFESSIONAL MEN AND WOMEN IN THIS WORLD! THEY CAN HANDEL ANY TYPE OF MISSION THEY GET SO THAT YOU AND I CAN SIT HERE ON OUR COMPUTERS AND TALK TO ONE ANOTHER! REMEMBER THAT!!! So for all you people that are more concerned with how much money you are making in the stock market sit back and consider terrisom taking over this world and imagine what the United States will be like for you children and grandchildren! THINK HARD!! Cause it won't be nice!!!
Think I'm Pissed!! Let the World turn their backs on us! Let People continue to think we are jumping the gun! That's what pisses me off!
And as far as the stupid French are concerned Going to war with the French is like going hunting with an acordian! Ask the Vietnam Vets!!!!! Oh how some of you older guys soon forget how loyal some countries can be!!!
Anyone care to comment!!!!!
Chris
Go in and take away all WMD? YES >>
VERY bad concept... Saddam won't come clean about what he has and what he has done with it. So far it's been a game of hiding information and material from the weapons inspectors. Even Hans Blix ,the appeaser, as admitted that.
Do we have to wait until more American civilians are murdered before we will be permitted to defend ourselves?
There is no "kinder and gentler" approach to dealing with torrism and the nations that harbor and support it.
<< <i>So, in my opinion. We have to act now and fast before something else happens and that is a risk the U.S. Govt. and I will have to take. >>
Well Said!!!
OOH RAH!!!
Chris,
First off all, thanks for serving in the marines!
Second off all, thanks for expressing your views in the way that you did. I fail to see how so many people can be complacient about the risks some of these other countries pose, especially after 9/11. People keep saying that they don't think Saddam is a threat to the U.S. What about 10 years from now if he keeps making more and more weapons? What if he just finds a way to get even a few liters of Anthrax over to the U.S.? What if he sells some of those weapons to AlQueda or some group similar? Why do so many Americans seem to want to wait for proof of Saddams weapons to show up in our own backyard and kill thousands before we go after him?
I am on your side 100%.
JJacks
DITTO.....................well said!
We've had trouble with other countries that we FAR more of a threat that Iraq (the USSR and China come to mind) and we were able to negotiate without going to war with them. Why can't we do this with Iraq, which is FAR less of a threat? Hell...they're far less of a threat than even Korea but yet we are negotiating with them at the moment. Bush is looking to much like a war-monger for my tastes.
jom
PS: Good post FrattLaw...I totally agree.
Damned if we don't.
peacockcoins
The peace at any price people, France, Germany and Belgium make me sick.
Liberals keep telling us they want to save the environment, stop racism and genocide, end the proliferation of nuclear weapons, end imperialism and make life better for the world’s poor. Yet, when they faced with a dictator who is guilty of all of these things, they attack their president as the vilest of all villains and give aid and support to Sodom Hussein
Thus Sodom has be guilty of the following offenses:
· He has purposely set oil well fires that polluted the environment.
· He has gassed people within his own country because of ethic and religious differences
· He has done all he could develop weapons of mass destruction.
· He has attacked neighboring countries for imperialistic purposes.
· He has killed and tortured those within his country who opposed his bloody dictatorship.
I wish that the demonstrators would talk about the issues and not spend 99% of their time condemning President Bush. Anyone who is on the fence should ask themselves the following questions:
· Do you think that Sodom has weapons of mass destruction?
· If he does have them do you trust him not to use them or give them to terrorist groups?
· Do you think that Sodom given his record will leave his neighbors alone?
If you can “NO” to question 1 and "YES" to questions 2 and 3 then by all means get out your placards and demonstrate for peace. But if your answer is the opposite, I’d suggest some soul searching before you condemn your president's policies.
Adrian I am aware of this.If congress were to vote and declare war then killing SH would not be assasination.He is their military leader and therefore a military target,just like the President of the United States who is the commander in chief during war.
I respect your opinion because in this wonderful contry we have that right! I have to disagree with you though. You made mention of negotiation. That would be great! Please Let's negotiate! The problem is we've been negotiating for the last 12 years! You talk about it worked for Russia and China! It took 50 years and 2 World Wars of constant back and forth to force Russia to fold! Are we now going to let this Scumbag Saddam Hussein throw us into another Cold War! Because that is what it is about! Nuclear Weapons!! Believe me because I've witnessed some of his otrousities He will not play the game! Once he gets them He will use them! Not on us per say but against our friends!
Don't beleive me. Well lets continue to negotiate and lets wait for the U.N. to decide and you will witness it first hand. Probally in your back yard!
Chris
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Fratlaw (and the other guy sucking up to you, makes me puke!) , enough said with your friends of ex employees at the State Dept. It all makes sense now!
BTW, Israel gets $3B, and matched with whatever Egypt gets I believe, whatever the heck we get from Egypt is beyond me. I do not even have to mention why Israel gets it, if you don't know by now, its not gonna make a difference. A knowledgable individual will surely break it all down for you if necessary. You won't get too much out of your former State dept friend
You then state how many presidents tried to bring Israel to the table, why.... are you smokin now? How many times has Israel been at the freakin table?? Why just 2 years ago we were ready to give the Arabs 98% of that land (West Bank) rightfully won in wars. What the hell happenned to that offer?? Not enough land to raise children taught to hate America and Israel? or anything democratic? Forget the fact that they'd rather have the whole state of Israel, and have tried so many times, dumb a--holes! Am I mad , you bet!
Spy? spy me Ass. Your James Bond hint of whatever is hogwash. So, we caught one spy? so? Whats the point? Freinds sometime spy on each other. Spouses sometimes spy on each other. No further comment! Sorry to bust your bubble, but they are a steadfast friend.
Marc
I expected nothing less in your response. I gave you facts, you responded with emotions. You didn't even read my post carefully, I didn't say I worked for the State Department, go back and re-read my post. There might be other revelant facts you missed.
I don't hate Israel, but I find no reason to love them.
By the way, if I may ask, why do you love Israel so much?
Michael
Also, if we do attack Iraq what about their innocent civilians? We all mourn the loss of the people on 9/11 but yet there doesn't seem to be any concern for the thousands of people that could be killed in Iraq. Frankly, the hypocracy just frustrates me...it just seems the government believes American lives are somehow "more important" than all human lives. Please don't take this as some indictment of the military. I believe they try to do as best they can at all times but, unfortunately, they aren't perfect. My problem is with the government putting them in that position.
I also firmly agree with what FrattLaw said below. And that is another thing that bugs me: We don't seem to be getting ALL of the infomation. But that's another arguement I suppose....
I realize we are going to agree, so be it. I'm not trying to convince anyone of my point of view. I'm just stating my own...that's all.
jom
EDIT:
<< <i>Fratlaw (and the other guy sucking up to you, makes me puke!) >>
This type of response is why I HATE talking about this stuff. People always (no matter what side they argue for) get emotional and lose all reason. Very tiresome....
Marc
North Korea only knows how to make one thing: Missles. My guess with all of the firepower that North Korea produces, they will do a surprise attack on the South knocking out Seoul killing/injuring the population of 10 million plus people and many military bases within thier reach. Once all of the missles have been fired or knocked out, whatever planes are available will attack in an air campaign and on the ground will be a ground war of artiliary, infantry and hand to hand combat. There will be many wounded on boths side but there will be many civilian deaths and widespread destruction. That is why we just talk. I think our govt. knows the possible outcome if we go to war with Korea. We know the North Koreans have a Psycho President and he is taking advantage of the situation of the US's conflict w/ Iraq. I know we can fight two wars at once but it will be devastating.
------------------------------
Now Iraq, I know this will be fast and furious, but I am going to be there for the long haul. I will be there for over a year. Yep, over a year. My job is Civil Affairs and it is a Special Operations position and will be attached and fighting with the 1st Cav., but once the fighting is done, my job is to go back in there and work with the people....the ones who are pissed off. But it will be our job to care for them until they appoint a new govt. that is worthy. That may mean for the U.S. to take over the oil fields to pay for the cost of the war and whatever happens after.
Jom, whether we like it or not, we are the worlds police force. Because if we don't do it, no one else will. We help many countries with food and medicine but no one ever hears about that. For some reason, every idiot in this world who protested this weekend is a complete dumbass for not knowing what they are protesting against. They are protesting a war, yes, but what the war is about. It is not about killing innocent civilians it is about taking out Saddam and yeas every war has their casualties but that is the risk of war. No one likes war and no one want to see innocent people get hurt or killed. War is hell. But no one likes or wants a Modern Day Hitlers either.
To all of those idiots who will be a human shield, they better be prepared to show the open palms of their hands if they do nto want to get shot. If anything looks suspicious or seems to be giving away our position or we just don't know what is in thier hands, they may get shot and be killed. That will be the same for everyone in the way. They must get out of the way. I am not going to let any of my men or myself get hurt or killed. If you think I am wrong, put yourself in my position.
This war is not my doing, I am just fighting for our country so something like 9/11 doesn't happen again. Yes there will be lives lost and that includes mine, but guess what, that is the risk we have to take for peace. History will repeat itself, fighting for freedom for ourselves but now it will include many others. If other countries do not want to take part, that is ok. They have their reasons. I am not against that and I do nto hate them for it either. Maybe they will change their mind later on.