Nickel Three-Cent Pieces : images/discussion -updated
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
This thread has a great deal of potential......... to be a real snoozer, that is. 
I don't know if any of you like or care about Nickel Three-Cent Pieces. But currently, I have access to more images of coins of this type than usual, so I thought I'd give it a shot.
Nickel Three-Cent Pieces or Three-Cent Nickels, if you prefer, get their name from their composition of 25% nickel and 75% copper. This contrasts with Silver Three-Cent Pieces, which have 75% silver and 25% copper for the Type l's (1851-1853) and 90% silver and 10% copper for the Type ll's and Type lll's (1854-1858 and 1859-1873, respectively).
These coins were struck from 1865 through 1889, with each year of issue offering both business strikes (non-proofs struck for general circulation) and proofs, with the exceptions of the 1877 and 1878, which were produced only as proofs, as were the Shield Nickels from those two years. EDITED to add 1886 as a third date which was struck only in Proof. Thanks, dbldie55, for catching my mistake.
According to Walter Breen, a major reason for the authorization of Nickel Three-Cent Pieces was to retire the then unpopular 3c fractional notes, which were the smallest in size and value at that time and which were easily damaged, torn or lost.
Why was that necessary when there were Silver Three-Cent Pieces being minted through 1873? With less silver going to the mints for coinage during the Civil War, Silver Three-Cent Pieces were struck in extremely limited quantities - beginning with 1863, the largest business strike mintage was less than 23,000 (several later issues were struck in quantities of less than 5000!), with most of those that were struck, being hoarded.
Business Strike Nickel Three-Cent Pieces typically display a satiny, rather than a vibrant luster, though there are some exceptions, including some prooflike examples. Many of the earlier dates are often found with interesting die-clashing. Rarely are they found with great color.
The 1865, the first year of issue, is, by far, the most easily obtained. It should be, as it had a mintage of 11,382, more than twice that of the next highest mintage date, the 1866. According to the combined populations of the NGC Census Report and the PCGS Population Report, at least, the 1884 (mintage of just 1700) is the toughest issue to obtain, with a combined PCGS and NGC population of only 33 pieces, in all grades combined. Please keep in mind, however, that there are a number of uncertified pieces available, too.
Proofs are one of the more common and affordable older U.S. Type Coins. A PR65 common date should be obtainable in the $400 range and a PR66, for roughly $600. Sometimes, these can be found with an attractive ice-blue hue, with or without hints of yellow or gold. Occasionally you will see a Proof with rainbow patina but that is a rare occurrence. These make great sets, as, while there are some dates that will set you back monetarily, at least there are no real "stoppers" to prevent you from completing a set.
Is everyone still awake? Anyone?
Time for some images :
1865 PCGS MS66
1865 PCGS PR66 Cameo
1866 NGC PR65 Ultra Cameo
1866 PCGS PR65
1875 PCGS PR65
1879 PCGS PR66
1881 PCGS PR67 Cameo
I don't know if any of you like or care about Nickel Three-Cent Pieces. But currently, I have access to more images of coins of this type than usual, so I thought I'd give it a shot.
Nickel Three-Cent Pieces or Three-Cent Nickels, if you prefer, get their name from their composition of 25% nickel and 75% copper. This contrasts with Silver Three-Cent Pieces, which have 75% silver and 25% copper for the Type l's (1851-1853) and 90% silver and 10% copper for the Type ll's and Type lll's (1854-1858 and 1859-1873, respectively).
These coins were struck from 1865 through 1889, with each year of issue offering both business strikes (non-proofs struck for general circulation) and proofs, with the exceptions of the 1877 and 1878, which were produced only as proofs, as were the Shield Nickels from those two years. EDITED to add 1886 as a third date which was struck only in Proof. Thanks, dbldie55, for catching my mistake.
According to Walter Breen, a major reason for the authorization of Nickel Three-Cent Pieces was to retire the then unpopular 3c fractional notes, which were the smallest in size and value at that time and which were easily damaged, torn or lost.
Why was that necessary when there were Silver Three-Cent Pieces being minted through 1873? With less silver going to the mints for coinage during the Civil War, Silver Three-Cent Pieces were struck in extremely limited quantities - beginning with 1863, the largest business strike mintage was less than 23,000 (several later issues were struck in quantities of less than 5000!), with most of those that were struck, being hoarded.
Business Strike Nickel Three-Cent Pieces typically display a satiny, rather than a vibrant luster, though there are some exceptions, including some prooflike examples. Many of the earlier dates are often found with interesting die-clashing. Rarely are they found with great color.
The 1865, the first year of issue, is, by far, the most easily obtained. It should be, as it had a mintage of 11,382, more than twice that of the next highest mintage date, the 1866. According to the combined populations of the NGC Census Report and the PCGS Population Report, at least, the 1884 (mintage of just 1700) is the toughest issue to obtain, with a combined PCGS and NGC population of only 33 pieces, in all grades combined. Please keep in mind, however, that there are a number of uncertified pieces available, too.
Proofs are one of the more common and affordable older U.S. Type Coins. A PR65 common date should be obtainable in the $400 range and a PR66, for roughly $600. Sometimes, these can be found with an attractive ice-blue hue, with or without hints of yellow or gold. Occasionally you will see a Proof with rainbow patina but that is a rare occurrence. These make great sets, as, while there are some dates that will set you back monetarily, at least there are no real "stoppers" to prevent you from completing a set.
Is everyone still awake? Anyone?
Time for some images :1865 PCGS MS66
1865 PCGS PR66 Cameo
1866 NGC PR65 Ultra Cameo
1866 PCGS PR65
1875 PCGS PR65
1879 PCGS PR66
1881 PCGS PR67 Cameo
0
Comments
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Those images are also a lesson in cameo vs deep cameo. That 1881 sure does look nice! It appears to be close to the 1866 in terms of frostyness.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
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Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
Despite that you wrote a very good history of the series Mark. I enjoyed your post.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
K S
Very nice post.
Thanks again for teaching me something...........
Thanks for the post. The 1865 really is nice. I seem to be in the majority who just don't care for the design. I do have one (an 1872 PCGS MS-63) to fill out my type set, but it is not one that impresses me, even a little.
Tom
Why are so "many" available in such good condition? Also why has this series never really taken off? I fiind these pieces more beautiful than any present coinage we have.
Thanks
Last year I purchased an 1874 PR64 NGC. I feel that it is one of the best coins I have with great future potential. Low business strikes and low proof mintages add to that desire. They are one series that looks beautiful in proof.
Clankeye
Carl, I believe that if you saw the 1866 and 1881 side by side, you would notice a distinct difference in the amount of frosting and contrast.
Greg, strike can be an issue. I sometimes see pieces which are weak / flat in Liberty's hair and / or the numerals and /or the wreath on the reverse. And yes, the luster can be subdued, even for high grade mint state examples, as long as the coin is superior on its other merits.
Bill and Tom, I'm not a big fan of the design, myself.
K.S., that is a challenge I wont take you up on!
dbldie55, as I mentioned in my edit, thanks for catching and pointing out my error, where I had omitted the 1886 from the proof-only list.
DesertLizard, I don't have an answer to your question regarding why so many are available in "such good condition", though I haven't compared the available supply of high grade examples to that of other series. Prices for these coins have been considerably higher - if memory serves me correctly, in the pre-certification days, "gem" proofs sold for in excess of $2000, if not $3000, just before the market correction / crash of 1980.
nwcs, in answer to your questions - according to Walter Breen, the 2c pieces circulated less after the Civil War ended, as banks had less need for the denomination, due to the increased coinage of nickel 5c pieces. Apparently, the 3c denomination was abolished, due to a change in postal rates. Lucky for us that denominations aren't abolished every time we have postal rate increases in present day times!
Mark, one thing I notice in the images you posted is that many of the pieces have very evident die polish. Is this true of proof 3CNs in general? Or am I just seeing things?
most unusual coins
and superb looking coins in deep/ultra cameo proofs deep ice blue proofs and rainbow coins hopefully i canm post a stellar deep cameo proof coin and a really uncommon/rarfe rainbow proof three center nick
ttt
sincerely michael mayhbe paUL ahylock AND POST HIS SUPER toned superb gem mnintstate three cent nickel coin on here now with colors like that then it is a monster pretty coin!!!!
I like the 3cn Series, though I personally prefer the 3cs Series more. I only own one 3cn which is an 1877 PCGS pr66 (the coin is actually an 1877/6 overdate but this is not indicated on the slab). Thank you again for your photos coinguy1.
matteproof
Good to see the Coin Guy thread again.
Nice assortment of 3CN. Really crisp strikes on a number of them. The cams and ultra cams can be special. Somehow the images are fuzzy on others.
None of the special toning on these pics.
I never got around to showing you my 3CN.
I was hoping you would be showing one of those on my want list.
Having collected this series, I quickly learned how underappreciated these little coins really are. I would only add...if you are considering this series, beware of the 84, 85 and 87 dates being offered as uncirculated business strikes. I would advise buying only certified coins on these three dates. I've run across many proofs being offered as business strikes. They are genuinely RARE as business strikes...far outnumbered by their proof cousins. Why they don't command a larger premium as business strikes is a testament to the degree of collector demand for them.
The series also seems to suffer dispraportionately from carbon specks. Not sure as to why.....
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
bruce scher
bruce scher
in other words for me from my limited experience in the coin game very rare!!!!!!!!!!!!
here is a proof three cent nick rainbow toned and extremely much much better in person sight seen!
but all we gots is a scan!
sincerely michael
and if you think the 1865 is rare in proof deep/ultra cameo and IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!! the 1871 in proof ultra/deep cameo is ultra rare plus plus!!
also the 1871 is acknowledged by three cent nickel "experts" as one of the worst made dates in proof
with only one deep cameo from pcgs,,,,,,,,,,, a coin i have never seen but have "heard" about
and only one ultra cameo from ngc and the ngc ultra cameo is not only a ultra cameo but a "stellar" ultra cameo in other words it is an exceptionally strong ultra cameo i think there are like 10 cameos for the 1871 both services combined
please see attatchment and also this coin is much better in person sight seen!
sincerely michael
which to me is really too bad and for me they are superb excellent value coins! coins with a fundemential reason to rise in value
and lets for a minute forget about a reason to rise in value for a moment
they are unusual coins and they are extraordinary beautiful in very choice to gem proof if colored or deep cameo even strong cameos and regualr eye appealling coins are neat looking and
you really get value for your money and cant go wrong in buying these coins as they are totally no brainer buy coins as you can put together a neat set partiAL or complete with small amounts of money comapired to other sets and these coins for me are
a joke in terms of cheapness/inexpensiveness i mean they have nowhere to go but up!!!!!!!!!!
not only in po-ularity and demand but money wise for all you "inventment" people out there!
also think about it three cent nickels! and yet they are 75% copper and also wirh no matto on them and no demonation they look like some sort of pattern coin! they only say tewo thinhgs on them the date and usa!
how simple yet beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!! i mean a really intreginhg coin! you could collect by date or even just get a set of one coin for type!!
or one a decade like a proof 1860's coin 1870's 1880's
or a neat set of one coin cameo one deep cameo and one of the proof only dates and also the over date!!
wow wild!!!!!!!!! these coins are one of the most UNDERAPPRECAITED SLEEPER usa coins in numismatics and if you think about it if we are still making cents i think a three cent coin would be a great reintroduction into the circulating coins!
also the lore of the three dollar bill and things in threes! a three cent piece how unusuakl and a great conversatrion piece!!
i mean an ultra cameo 1871 looking like this coin is like rarer than any proof deep cameo seated dollar!!
and they are out there these neat looking three cent nicks if you are willing to go out and look
maybe not available in any quantity but still out there if you want to look for one special coin!!
look at those three centers mark posted from the pinnacle website the highest degree and magnitute of rarity and eye appeal and yet still available and for in the context of what they are inexpensive!
sincerely michael
oh and as you can tell i really dislike three cent nickels!
these coins are the great ones of the proof series and for me usually not seen at all anymore and even some years before noyt seen that much
i wish i had a scan to show you a real monster deep cameo ice blue three center! a totally original mint tissue toned coin! deeply mirrored and cameo but really a deep cameo and proof 67 pcgs
sincerely michael
also a subset within a set are the cameo and ultra cameo coins!
sincerely michael
my all time favorites are the deep/ultra cameo pre 1915 proof coin thread you started and this three cent nick thread!!!!!!!!!!
it is really refreshing to see great coin related threads on here instead of the usual crapola
sincerely michael
Thanks for the supplement to Mark's thread on this series.
You spoke ( and showed) some of the great toned and deep cameo 3CN nickels you have managed to collect.
I went back to my ledgers see how many cameo 3CN coins I had in my collection.
I found 6 3CN Cams (certified) with some additional that probably deserve such status. Unfortunately ( for me) no Deep/Ultra CAMS and few coins that have splendid rainbow or blue toning that you have shown us examples of.
You collect quality.
By the way , you always refer to pre 1915 coins in your posts; why did you select this exact date as the breaking point between your concept of modern and pre-modern coins?
To all,
I also like this series for all the repunched and misplaced date as well as the doubling varieties. This in itself can make a really special aspect of collecting coins.
While not totally complete in it's description of the multiple varieties in this series the monograph by Flynn and Fletcher " The Authoritive Reference on Three Cent Nickels" is an invaluable reference for 3CN die variety collectors.
well for me the last barber in proof was 1915?/ i think that is why i used that and really the next series was the standing lib quarters the merc dimes the buff nicks and i think with those series brilliant proofs are few and far between none for thre standing quarters and only two for the buffs and 7? each for the merc dimes and walkers and lincolns jeffs! washington quarters and i highly doubt there would ever be watery deep cameo coins for any of those then after that comes the roosevelts and franklins and they are modern coins
and for me overall the era of pre 1915 proofs is for me like the cutoff point where for years you had a good run of brilliant proofs of most every series and lots of them and also where you will find usually find some deep watery mirrored proof coins
i think 1916 to 1949 for brilliant proofs if you looked long and hard maybe some cameos but barely cameo proof coins and most possibly not any deep cameo coins!
it truly was an end of an era a lost art after 1915 deep cameo proof coinage!
now it was rediscovered deep cameo proofs during the 1950's and of course in the 1960 to 70 era, really rediscovered
to where now currently after 1975? all coins are monster mirrored proof deep cameo i think that after 1985, 1990? it would be a great rarity? to find a coin with no cameo at all but still with deep mirrors?
i really do not do anything with coins after 1950 so i cant really say in any way shape or form about post 1950 proof coinage!
and for me the true real era that started it all and is the classic era of monster beautiful coins that are the deep cameo proof coins ((even some cameos are really close to deep cameo!)) are the pre 1915 1916 era silver copper and nickel proof coins
of monster fine deeply mirrored coins deep cameos etc and then lost during the 1920's to the late 1930;s and finally reintroduced and somewhat re-perfected by the middle 1950's to currently now where all coins coming from the mint in proof are monster mirrored and deep cameos!
for me i would rather have the leonardo divincis and the vermeer of proof coins!!
which are to me the pre 1915 proof coinage! the best of the best!!!!
now of course i am sure there are great coins in proof deep cameo after 1915 but none will ever have the romance allure or technical quality of these pre 1915 coins and by technical quality i mean within reason for the times!
i mean i have seen monster mirrored deep cameo proof coinage of pre 1915 that with the technoligy that was used even rival overall the deep mirrored proofs of the current usa mint in 2002!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! also the beauty of these pre 1915 proof coins are superbly beautiful and have a character all their own!
i guess to each his own and that is what makes the hobby great is everyone has their own ideas and thoughts and collecting and put it all together like a great recipe and you get the whole greater than the sum of its parts
you kind of get a synergy in coins i love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sincerely michael
To avoid any possible confusion, it was the Nickel Three-Cent Pieces, not the Silver Three-Cent Pieces that were discontinued, partly due to a change in postal rates. Proofs do not typically display much die polish. There are, of course exceptions, and that is partly dependent upon the date of manufacture.
matteproof,
I agree, completely, about the 1877 having been thought of as the key issue but not being the rarest. The combined NGC and PCGS population for the 1877 is 732 (wow, that's a lot, considering the supposed mintage was 510!) vs. 347 for the 1865 Proof. This is a good example of how certification and population reports, though both imperfect, can shed light on the relative rarity of various coins / issues.
Catch22 and Bruce,
You made an excellent point about the rarity of certain business-strike issues and many proofs masquerading as their rarer mint-state counterparts.
Michael ,
Thanks for the images and analysis. Wait a minute..... you can't be Michael, with those short paragraphs and improved spelling. Who are you and what have you done with my pal Michael??????
Speaking of Michael, here is a really pretty 1888 NGC MS67 that he mentioned -
Trime,
As always, thanks for your contributions.
bruce scher
ps am excited and encouraged by the amount of comments this thread generated..maybe the 3centers will wake..
well mark!! it is really me!!...........lol
i figured since you are so professional and knowledgable and always well written, ie. your posts it made an impression on me that i had to type more carefully!
anyway keep all the great new threads coming, mark!!
sincerely michael
]
sincerely michael
<< <i>
matteproof,
I agree, completely, about the 1877 having been thought of as the key issue but not being the rarest. The combined NGC and PCGS population for the 1877 is 732 (wow, that's a lot, considering the supposed mintage was 510!) vs. 347 for the 1865 Proof. This is a good example of how certification and population reports, though both imperfect, can shed light on the relative rarity of various coins / issues. >>
Hi coinguy1. Thank you for your thoughts on the 3cn. Yes, it is very odd that a coin with mintage of 510 pieces can have a combined pop that is HIGHER! I believe that this has much to do with unreported "crackouts" (I would bet that MANY crackouts go unreported to grading services thus skewing the pop figures).
Lots of folks crack out 1877 3cn's in lower grades (61-64) hoping to get a 65 or higher (it's a pretty decent price jump in between grades). Furthemore, there seems to have been a recent spate of certified "Cameo" designations on the 3cn proof series in general: which likely has brought a few to crack their non-cam slabs in hopes for a shot at the Cam on the slab.
Last thought; it is my sense that the 1865 3cn proof is LESS likely to get cracked once certified than is the 1877 3cn. This results from fear that the 1865 3cn PROOF (rare) might wind up in an 1865 3cn MS (common) holder, thus greatly diminishing it's value (this perhaps explains the 1865's lower pop report than the 1877 despite similiar reported mintages). I have seen a number of slabbed 1865 3cn proofs that were very "dull" looking (perhaps they were just well struck biz strikes in proof slabs?). It is possible that this effect would lead to far fewer crackouts of the 1865 3cn proof than would be the case for the proof ONLY 1877 date. With the Proof only 1877 3cn, one is assured that the coin is a proof thereby mitigating the risk of it coming back a business strike (though there was a time - many years ago - when some dealers were pushing a supposed "rare" 1877 3cn business strike. In reality, they turned out to be just VERY dull or worn proofs of 1877).
matteproof
In answer to you question / theory on resubmissions of 1865's vs. 1877's :
A Proof 1865 should be obvious enough, so as not to concern someone about cracking one out of a holder and having to worry about it being re-graded as a business-strike.
Some dates in the Nickel Three-Cent and Silver Three-Cent series do present a real challenge in determining Proof vs. business-strike status, but the 1865 is not one of them.
You are absolutely correct, however, about many coins being resubmitted, their grading labels not being returned to the grading services and distorted population figures being published in the population reports.
In general, the larger the spread in value for a one point difference in grade for a particular issue, the greater the likelihood of that coin being resubmitted. As just one example, (and I might have mentioned this in another post long ago), when I graded at NGC, I saw an MS64 High Relief resubmitted approximately a dozen times in a one year period!
rather than my proof coin i submitted did not get a 70 type of threads! or my coin made 70 and now i can sell it for 50/100 times more than i paid wow that sure sounds ethical and full of intergrity to me............lol
sincerely michsel
sincerely michael