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PCGS Slabbing Results are In....And they Suck

maddoxmaddox Posts: 320
in U.S. Coin Forum
Sent in two orders for slabbing, this order for 4 Coins just came in, have another order of 16 coins still pending. I had all four coins screened by a local dealer with 25 years experience, another is a collector with 15 years. All coins were examined under a 10/30 binocular microscope. Four seperate and very experienced dealers came to the same conclusion as to the grades we assigned prior to submitting

Here are the coins and what we felt they would come in at

1880 CC GSA - MS64
1892 S - AU
1878 CC MS64
1879 MS65

Here is the results of the slabbing

1880 CC GSA PCGS MS64....... Came in just as expected
1892 S - EF45........We were not sure, but thought the grade should be at least an AU
1878 CC....Body Bag......ALtered Surface....No possible way, to many people examined this coin under high power, coin still has original luster, there is no way.
1879 AU.........This coin was a perfect MS65, possible MS66. How could they possibly come up with AU, no rim dings, no scratches, orignal luster, full cartwheel, ......


They last two coins were a real shocker, never expected the grades to come in so low and in a BB,
Ah crap &%#*%^$(*&%^(&^$...........I'll post picks of these coins when they arrive.............

Now I can't to see the results for the other 16 coins.....
" I hoard coins, that's what I do, it's my nature"
____________________________

Comments

  • billiardmasterbilliardmaster Posts: 151 ✭
    Maddox
    I have been a dealer for 30 years and if I have noticed anything it is that very very few dealers have any clue at all. Looking forward
    to seeing your pics. I have seen very few body bagged coins that should not have been. If you cleaned your 92-s, that would explain the
    xf45 grade?
    Rusty
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭
    When did pcgs get them? Were they regular or economy?
    Sorry results considering you did your homework.
  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,571 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You may want to ditch the use of the 10/30 binocular microscope as this is not how coins are looked at by PCGS graders and, more importantly, most folks miss many important signs a coin is trying to give them by using too high a power magnification. I'm not saying PCGS is right and I'm not saying you are right; I'm just saying that your magnification is too strong.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • JMOOREJMOORE Posts: 1,000
    This really concerns me and is the main reason that I have not submitted any coins to PCGS yet...
    ANA Member R-213302
  • maddoxmaddox Posts: 320
    The 92S was questionable, it had some nice golden toning and looked worn in high points, so the EF45 grade is acceptable.

    With the 1879, I did side by side comparisons with 4 other PCGS MS65's and the 1879 was as nice or nicer than the comparsion coins, again no rim dings, full strike, all the fields and devices were exceptionally clean, almost cameo luster, a rock solid MS65......I think Im going to crack it open and resubmitt under a friends name to see how it would come back....

    Oh well, i'm over it now, I get frustrated for about 10 minutes, then I find another coin to buy...
    " I hoard coins, that's what I do, it's my nature"
    ____________________________
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You may want to ditch the use of the 10/30 binocular microscope >>



    Tom is right. Once I ditched the "microscopic examine the coins to death approach" I became far more accurate at predicting the grades. Now, at most, I might view them under 5x and than that's only if there's something specific that caught my eye.



    << <i>With the 1879, I did side by side comparisons with 4 other PCGS MS65's >>



    That's another thing I learned the hard way. Comparing to other coins that PCGS has graded is a rocket sled to disappointment.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
  • maddoxmaddox Posts: 320
    Submission was regular service, I should also note that we examined the coins in every possible way, 5x,10x,20x,30x, under low/high light and at odd angles. As well as the good old fashioned visual....

    " I hoard coins, that's what I do, it's my nature"
    ____________________________
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,298 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I Just got back several coins:

    1839-C $2.50 gold, my grade AU-55, PCGS grade AU-55
    1652 small planchet Pine Tree Shilling, Noe-16, My grade EF-40, PCGS grade VF-35
    1791 Washington Cent, Large Eagle - My grade MS-63 Brown, PCGS grade AU-58, brown.
    1796 dime, My grade EF-40 to 45, PCGS Grade AU-50
    1773 Virginia half penny, My grade MS-64, R&B, PCGS grade MS-64, R&B

    Getting stuff graded is always a crap shot. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose and sometimes you break even.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • KeyrockKeyrock Posts: 961 ✭
    Remember that the grading is their opinion. I had a large cent sent back because of altered surfaces. After looking it over again I scratched my head and wondered what the heII they were talking about. On my next submission, the coin landed in a slab as expected at the anticipated grade (actually thought it was EF not vf35).

    Now my gold quarter eagle didn't cross. Some day I may try again, but for now I will avoid PCGS on submissions based on what I have heard from several dealers. Personally, I would shoot the 78 and 79 in a few months.

    Rich
  • paigowjohnnypaigowjohnny Posts: 4,257 ✭
    Maddox...welcome to Suck City...population you and me.image

    My saga of the 91-CC body bagged for cleaning was put up yesterday. It was my first PCGS submission, and while I hold no real ill will for them, it definitely made me feel pretty crappy and makes me question my ability to look at a coin.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>coins were examined under a 10/30 binocular microscope. Four seperate and very experienced dealers came to the same conclusion as to the grades >>

    sentiments echoed, if they were trying to use a 10/30 bi-scope to grade with, their "experience" sounds questionable!

    K S
  • AbesNeighborAbesNeighbor Posts: 705
    I have found that dealers, for the most part tell me what I want to hear, even when I ask them to be honest. I also believe that PCGS, for the most part, is pretty much on the mark.

    They make mistakes, but I think we all look at "our" coins as being the exception. That may not be the case here..it is generally true.
  • maddoxmaddox Posts: 320
    Suck City, LOL.............

    I know what you mean, I had kinda prided myself on having a good eye at grading coins, not over, not under, just right where they should be, but the GODS have proven me to be an idiot. (snort).... I think I'll stop playing with coins and go back to playing with Lincoln Logs. Much more fun and helluva lot less expensive.................
    " I hoard coins, that's what I do, it's my nature"
    ____________________________
  • jbstevenjbsteven Posts: 6,178 ✭
    maddox

    I sent a ngc ms66 morgan to pcgs to cross which then did at ms66. then i cracked it out and sent it in raw and it came back a ms67 (1885 O) so this shows you that they can be wrong or just have a different opinion the next time it comes through.

    my .02
  • tsacchtsacch Posts: 2,929 ✭✭✭
    You have got to post pics when you can.

    tom
    Family, kids, coins, sports (playing not watching), jet skiing, wakeboarding, Big Air....no one ever got hurt in the air....its the sudden stop that hurts. I hate Hurricane Sandy. I hate FEMA and i hate the blasted insurance companies.
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    Tilt the 79 and look for slight discoloration (invisible rub). I had a 28-S Peace that was shot 66 that AU'd twice, and that was the culprit. Just a hunch.image Most super-sliders will fool very good graders. BTW - PCGS could be wrong, too.image
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    Maddox - Sorry but the position of Idiot has already been taken ,

    by a Forum Member with more seniority.image
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • maddoxmaddox Posts: 320
    Um, I see....Looks like I have some competition......image
    " I hoard coins, that's what I do, it's my nature"
    ____________________________
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295 ✭
    Was the 78-CC a prooflike? For whatever reason, PCGS has bodybagged every PL I have submitted. The last one was a NGC MS65 PL. It came back as "altered surfaces". I sent it back to NGC, and it landed right back in a MS65 PL slab. I highly suspect PCGS is running a quota on the amount of PLs they slab.
  • eagle7eagle7 Posts: 1,441
    image Altered surfaces can be as trivial as a someone taking a jewlers tool and making a small mark smooth out. Very hard to find unless you know what you are looking for. Does not mean the whole surface of the coin. That would be the wiped check mark. Or someone could drop a little speck of glue somewhere to accomplish the same thing. Any way inspect it closely for such as that and if you still dont see it send it to NGC or ANACS.
    In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When getting a second opinion, you must deal with someone who has XX number of years of experience dealing with the particular series of coins
    in question. If they don't specialize in the particular series, you might know more than they do about how to grade a particular coin in question.

    Most dealers move slabs & I don't think are all that knowledgeable about coins, per se. If you work the shows for awhile, you'll get a feel re who knows coins and who is moving slabs.

    My eyes really opened wide when I took a Matron Head Large Cent slabbed 65 BN with 20% original RD & a nice for the grade Seated $ slabbed 63 around the floor in Long Beach a year ago. I had a question about color on the Cent (s/b RB by PCGS published standards) and a possible upgrade re the $.

    The comments I got were all over the place. The people to whom I paid attention were the copper guys (who told me you need 25% original RD or better to get the RB designation on a new submission), and a few Seated Coinage guys who told me that I wouldn't get the upgrade on the $ because of the Wayte Raymond toning (ie., the coin was not monster toned, nor was it white enough).

    In addition to this, you are dealing with the caga*o that Laura mentioned above.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • vam44vam44 Posts: 291 ✭


    << <i>While all of us the real world can have our own opinions about grading, we forget, PCGS HAS ITS OWN STANDARDS.

    It is US who MUST conform to what THEY want the coins in their holders to look like.

    "its what PCGS wants" in their holders >>




    Some of us would prefer to "switch" than to "play it again,Sam".imageimage
    A dealer once asked me if I noticed any three-legged buffalos on the bourse,to which I replied,"...no,but I saw alot of two-legged jackasses..."
  • kaleidoscopickaleidoscopic Posts: 159
    Mad.....I'll appropriately shorten your name. I believe everyone has had their share of disappointing submission results. I know I have.

    IF, you want to have them slabbed, just wait a bit, and resubmit again. Odds are they will slab eventually. Good luck. Kscope
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Elcontador,

    What was the date of that Seated Dollar in MS63 that you showed around, and is it still available?

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    EVP - It's a type coin - a 59 O. It may become available if I can find an honest 4 at a reasonable
    price. At the moment, though, it's a keeper. It has very few marks for the grade.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • DracoDraco Posts: 512 ✭
    Good grief. . .I have over 35 hand picked 19th century coins at PCGS right now and this thread is making me very, very nervous.
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭


    << <i>And these guys DO know how to grade (but they too sometimes forget, its what PCGS wants , not them). >>

    It's like a teacher at school. It's not about writing the right essay or pursuing truth or whatever. It's writing the report the teacher wants to read.

    I have to say that the longer I'm in the hobby the less I feel like submitting anything. I don't mind purchasing slabs, and using CoinWorld slabs for other nice stuff, but I think I'll reserve submissions for only certain things. That way it'll save me lots of money for coins and I can always certify if I want to sell to get a good price.

    Neil
    Blog and Pics

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